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Arin Hanson vs Sonic the Hedgehog

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In this video, Arin highlights a few reasons as to why he dislikes the Sonic the Hedgehog video games

https://youtu.be/aqEsKZsMj0g?t=165

Naturally he's highlighted other reasons, and I'll post video evidence if and when I find it, but my question is, do his criticisms hold water? I've always been under the impression that he simply doesn't understand how these games are designed, and is projecting his preconceived assumptions on the franchise as a whole. He seems to think Sonic is about going fast, but to me, the Sonic the Hedgehog games were always platformers where speed was a reward for being good at the game... 

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Truth be told, it kind of strikes me like he's just holding on to this opinion and finding anything he can to complain about as opposed to approaching things with an open mind. Y'know, he's trying to avoid thinking of things from the angle that the people in the comments section of that video are pretty much shouting directly at him because he doesn't want to look ignorant. That's the vibe I'm getting here.

 

I can actually understand the frustration with those spike balls in Marble Garden Zone because those things are a major pain in the ass. It's just an obstacle in a platformer game, though - not a punishment for going too fast. That strikes me as an asspull complaint because they're struggling, honestly.

 

It's primarily a platforming game, and any platforming game be boring as shit without some kind of obstacles to get by. Just running across an empty surface, point A to point B, wouldn't be a very fun game. Speed is a major part, yes, but he's thinking these are racing games or something with his approach, and I can't really wrap my head around it. Speed is a reward for good play, and that will help you get a nice time bonus at the end to add on to your score - but if you're constantly getting hit by things and playing poorly, then you won't get those nice bonuses that reward good play and you'll have a lower score as a result. It's not that hard to figure out.

 

His approach to the series is little different than someone going into Baldur's Gate expecting Call of Duty. If someone expects an shooter from a game that's a dead on RPG, then they won't like it. If someone goes into a platforming game expecting Grand Turismo, then they won't like it. 

 

It's common sense that's just not being applied to the situation, and thus I'm going to assume he's only doing so in a way that's little different than the average internet argument - just holding on to his opinion for dear life in spite of all of the evidence that contradicts what he's saying. I can't reach any other conclusion, honestly.

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Other games don't use momentum like Sonic does... or, well, did.  It doesn't exactly surprise me when I hear that someone doesn't get old Sonic games, it's not a platformer in the same way most games go about being platformers.  The onus of precision is considerably lower to go with the loose controls and you play it in broad strokes.  

 

It's time for some retro SSMB, it's Phos linking that Sonic Science page!  Oh that's hilarious, it still links to the Google Video videos.  

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Basically agreed with what has been said so far.

 

Have to add though, I've been enjoying the S3&K playthrough a fair bit generally, but I have to admit it's been frustrating me that whenever something awkward happens in the game, Arin is like SEE SEE SONIC IS BAD and Jirard is forced to agree that the particular thing that happened was bad, but the rest of the time where Jirard is clearly enjoying himself (obviously he must love the game to be confident in doing a 100% run during a let's play), the conversation is steered into jokes or off-topic conversations - all enjoyable but it is annoying that Arin is so completely blind to when the level design isn't being bullshitty (i.e. 90% of the time in S3&K) and the classic Sonic game design is working correctly and Jirard is making it look simple because he knows how to play.

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The only issue I can see is how Arin is an internet celebrity and so people are going to take his words as fact instead of actually thinking about them logically, but that's everything on the Internet. 

 

 

Arin strikes me as a person that has a very old school mindset about games, and if I recall he has ADHD. He just wants to get from Point A to Point B and fuck literally everything else. Its a pretty standard 80's/90's gamer mindset, which is pretty understandable. Unfortunately, he's extremely adamant and unflinching in his beliefs even when presented with evidence that contradicts his views and ignores it. 

 

 

I don't think he really hates Sonic, he just doesn't understand how the classic games play and doesn't want to understand would rather blame the game. 

 

 

 

So in short, don't take his word at face value and actually form some opinions of your own :V

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If you think about it, Sonic doesn't do a lot of things Mega Man X does, for example. It just doesn't follow the same principles.

At some point I tried to see how Sonic taught you things, but it turns out I was never taught about anything. Well, actually, S3&K tries to teach you about the spindash but fails horribly. Sonic 2, however, may theoretically be beat without the spindash. It's just that much harder.

So it's natural that someone whose game design logic was built upon having something taught to him and then twisted to think Sonic is all over the place. But it isn't really, and the reasons why he dislikes Sonic are the very same reasons why I like it. It's because Sonic doesn't teach you that it doesn't expect you to know anything and just lets you do things your way. You may get killed for that, hut that's what the life system that includes collectibles is there. It's more about you wanting something and doing what you can to reach it. The speed, as I was arguing on the other thread, is more of a discretionary space for the player, a grey area in which they can do whatever they want as long as it makes you progress, even if there's a cost.

By the way, it's hard for me to think of momentum as a reward for playing well. That's because you use that momentum for something, and that'd be reaching otherwise unreachable areas, passing through dangers that would be very hard to go through if you had fallen there etc. I don't think there are many elements in Sonic that are rewards in themselves. And that's good, you always have to use what you built for yourself.

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Honestly, I think people spend way too much time fussing over mechanics, and not having fun. I think Arin's the epitome of this. He's always complaining about this mechanic or that mechanic, or how this isn't a mechanic, and it's like... Dude, just shut up and have fun.

 

He's like the Rules Lawyer in a DnD group. Constantly getting in arguments with the DM over dice-rolls not going his way, or how this was an illegal move. 

 

The moment that made me think like this, was when he was complaining about Z-targeting in Zelda games, and how it all boiled down to the exact same strategy for fighting every enemy, and that was waiting for an opening and striking. But that's what I liked about fighting in Zelda games! I liked waiting for openings to happen, I liked standing toe-to-toe with enemies! That was what made it fun! It makes the fight feel more involving! Like you're actually fighting something, as opposed to just running around aimlessly swinging your sword at aimlessly wandering sprites!

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Fun through a game is achieved through its mechanics. There's literally no way to separate the two. If I'm not having fun with a game, it's because something between me and the game's design is not syncing up, not because I'm simply adamant on not enjoying it. Granted, the cause of this lack of sync could be due to my own lack of understanding or personal tastes and not because of any real mechanical fault on part of the game, which seems to be where Arin comes from more often than not when he talks about Sonic and it's something that should be called out and pinpointed. Regardless, telling people to "just have fun" with something that- to them- isn't designed in a fun way is an empty platitude. It's like telling me to "just enjoy" ranch dressing on pizza when it literally revolts me. It doesn't work. xP

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Have you ever let the Attract Mode run?

 

 

Around 35 seconds in, Sonic hits a slope and fails repeatedly to climb it under his own momentum. He's then seen crouching and doing a thing to Spindash. Considering every button does the same thing in classic Sonic, it's not hard to determine that thing is just pressing the jump button. Funnily enough, this draws a near-direct parrellel to one of the things Sequelitis praised MMX for - elements of gameplay that are visible even before the game has actually started proper. The very next demo shows rolling down slopes too, in case you're curious.

 

...you know what, I kinda miss Attract Modes in general now.

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I don't take issue with Arin not liking the games, but rather his attitudes on what constitutes as good game design (hint: it's only good if it appeals to and caters for his precise mindset) and his supporters fancying his views to be a benchmark truth. Telling someone to "just have fun" is basically demanding them to outright change their opinion and interests to match your own, which is no better a position.

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Tbh my first experience of Arin's videos was his Awesome Chaotix one; I thought it was kinda funny, instantly quoteable but I also thought it's kinda a low blow, considering how bad Chaotix can be (I enjoyed it though, even if it was just for the unusual game mechanics and getting to play as characters I hadn't played as before). Would he be just as bitchy about say, Sonic 3 and Knuckles? Hmm...

 

Sure the Sonic series has its problems, but I just think that Arin tends to take it a bit too far, yknow? Like, sure the Sonic 06 Game Grumps LP was looooong and they ran out of things to say, and uh, yeah it's Sonic 06(!) but I get the impression he can't stand the series as whole. Even the good games. So after a while it's like "Come on now, we get it. You don't like Sonic. Change the record already!!"

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If Arin doesn't like Sonic, fine, that's like his opinion. For example I'm not big on God of War but I can appreciate what it's done for gaming since. I guess my problem is that his reasons for not liking Sonic are really flimsy and he doesn't even appreciate how important Sonic is to videogames in general. Can't he at least admit that Sonic is a unique platformer compared to crap like Bubsy?

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Fun through a game is achieved through its mechanics. There's literally no way to separate the two. If I'm not having fun with a game, it's because something between me and the game's design is not syncing up, not because I'm simply adamant on not enjoying it. Granted, the cause of this lack of sync could be due to my own lack of understanding or personal tastes and not because of any real mechanical fault on part of the game, which seems to be where Arin comes from more often than not when he talks about Sonic and it's something that should be called out and pinpointed. Regardless, telling people to "just have fun" with something that- to them- isn't designed in a fun way is an empty platitude. It's like telling me to "just enjoy" ranch dressing on pizza when it literally revolts me. It doesn't work. xP

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Yeah, but even if you.arent a Mario 64 speedrun god, he still had more problems with that game that I've seen. But then again, that is one of Arin's major problems on his shows: he's more concerned with being funny than actually playing the game. He also likes to accentuate the negatives for comedic effect, which also doesnt help.

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Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water, especially when his opinion is basically ''Sonic has never had a good game, and I'm gonna hate it for stupid reasons''. It came to a whole new level where Game Grumps did the Boom video and Egoraptor decided to mock Sonic fans and act like an asshole. For reference:

 

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Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water, especially when his opinion is basically ''Sonic has never had a good game, and I'm gonna hate it for stupid reasons''. It came to a whole new level where Game Grumps did the Boom video and Egoraptor decided to mock Sonic fans and act like an asshole. For reference:

 

That's the worst reference you could've given. Why give a reference that is completely out of context on two fronts? The reasons he doesn't like the games is something many people hold an opinion of on the same level, but you can't say their opinions don't matter just because you don't like them.

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I didn't say they don't matter. I said I personally don't think they hold water. 

 

Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water,

 

if he gave some credible reasons as to why he didn't like the games, then sure it'd be fine, but many people here already stated they come down to things such as him not taking on board the controls, or just flat out not being good and then blaming that on the controls, or cheap level design, or something else that's Sega's fault and not his own. Plus, I just don't like how he seems determined on saying over and over again that Sonic sucks. Again, like it was said here, in Sonic 3 let's play, he keeps going on about ''that's why I don't like Sonic''. It feels like he's constantly shoving that opinion in your face.

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Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water, especially when his opinion is basically ''Sonic has never had a good game, and I'm gonna hate it for stupid reasons''. It came to a whole new level where Game Grumps did the Boom video and Egoraptor decided to mock Sonic fans and act like an asshole. For reference:

 

Gonna have to agree, this is terribly out of context:

https://youtu.be/4KZExNrr0N8?t=449

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