Arin Hanson vs Sonic the Hedgehog

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

In this video, Arin highlights a few reasons as to why he dislikes the Sonic the Hedgehog video games

https://youtu.be/aqEsKZsMj0g?t=165

Naturally he's highlighted other reasons, and I'll post video evidence if and when I find it, but my question is, do his criticisms hold water? I've always been under the impression that he simply doesn't understand how these games are designed, and is projecting his preconceived assumptions on the franchise as a whole. He seems to think Sonic is about going fast, but to me, the Sonic the Hedgehog games were always platformers where speed was a reward for being good at the game... 

[Lisbon]

Truth be told, it kind of strikes me like he's just holding on to this opinion and finding anything he can to complain about as opposed to approaching things with an open mind. Y'know, he's trying to avoid thinking of things from the angle that the people in the comments section of that video are pretty much shouting directly at him because he doesn't want to look ignorant. That's the vibe I'm getting here.

 

I can actually understand the frustration with those spike balls in Marble Garden Zone because those things are a major pain in the ass. It's just an obstacle in a platformer game, though - not a punishment for going too fast. That strikes me as an asspull complaint because they're struggling, honestly.

 

It's primarily a platforming game, and any platforming game be boring as shit without some kind of obstacles to get by. Just running across an empty surface, point A to point B, wouldn't be a very fun game. Speed is a major part, yes, but he's thinking these are racing games or something with his approach, and I can't really wrap my head around it. Speed is a reward for good play, and that will help you get a nice time bonus at the end to add on to your score - but if you're constantly getting hit by things and playing poorly, then you won't get those nice bonuses that reward good play and you'll have a lower score as a result. It's not that hard to figure out.

 

His approach to the series is little different than someone going into Baldur's Gate expecting Call of Duty. If someone expects an shooter from a game that's a dead on RPG, then they won't like it. If someone goes into a platforming game expecting Grand Turismo, then they won't like it. 

 

It's common sense that's just not being applied to the situation, and thus I'm going to assume he's only doing so in a way that's little different than the average internet argument - just holding on to his opinion for dear life in spite of all of the evidence that contradicts what he's saying. I can't reach any other conclusion, honestly.

[Phos]

Other games don't use momentum like Sonic does... or, well, did.  It doesn't exactly surprise me when I hear that someone doesn't get old Sonic games, it's not a platformer in the same way most games go about being platformers.  The onus of precision is considerably lower to go with the loose controls and you play it in broad strokes.  

 

It's time for some retro SSMB, it's Phos linking that Sonic Science page!  Oh that's hilarious, it still links to the Google Video videos.  

[Sean]

Honestly, I don't value Arin as an esteemed game critic by any stretch of the imagination. I think people started taking him to be one after he got lucky with his first couple of Sequelitis videos, particularly Mega Man's, which everyone takes as gospel (although I do love MMX for virtually the same reasons he listed). But Arin thinks there's this concrete formula to good game design without taking into account everyone's unique experiences and tastes; he frequently cites "how the fuck was I supposed to know that?" as a knee-jerk exclamation and uses said knee-jerk reactions to form his final views even long after the fact. I honestly can't think of many examples where he perceived and talked about something with a completely sober, humble outlook, and despite his earlier Sequelitis videos adding the disclaimer that these are his views and opinions alone, it's easy to forget that when his Zelda video turned out to be nothing but obvious fanboy rambling and whining where the complaints he slapped onto OOT could easily have been turned against ALTTP - and I say this as someone who doesn't like OOT in the least.

tl;dr: Arin happens to have a hateboner for things. He's adamant about hating the Sonic series and I don't think anybody is going to be able to come up with a well-formulated argument that would make him see that his view is not the end-all absolute to how things are. It's his opinion, and it certainly doesn't make him a worse person for it, though. He's a pretty cool dude. Just saying, I don't think his opinion on many things is particularly credible.

[azoo]

Arin complains that the games are all about speed speed speed but then gets mad at how the level design is "constantly" fighting at him for going fast. So, you know, maybe it's more than about going fast all the time, Arin.

Arin complains that Sonic is just kinda that game that has no big deal to it since it's just "beat the level and do the next one" even though that's like... every platformer series ever that he loves. Mario, Mega Man, Donkey Kong, Kirby, etc. You go to the end of the level, do the next one. What makes classic Sonic particularly different? The lack of a hub, maybe?

Arin's expressed more than once in the play through about his surprise that there's actual depth and strategy to the things Jirard does. As if there is none to Sonic in other areas. Watch him be surprised again and again as Jirard actually plays the game.

Arin seems like the kinda guy who'd run down the big slope without rolling (because he never bothered to learn how), hits the enemy head-on while running, and then complains that none of that was fun because it wasn't that satisfying to control, and the level design was cheap garbage. "How was I supposed to know you were supposed to Spin Dash there, that's bullshit game design!", he'd probably scream, even though he was never required to Spin Dash there in the first place, of course.

His views aren't really ones I'd take seriously in any way, because all he's ever done with Sonic is do what he does with every other game: doesn't pay attention to how it works, ends up sucking because of it, and then hates it and totes it as if it's factual that it's not good and was never good, all while toting complaints that mean absolutely nothing to the game's quality (example: his Sequelitis on OoT vs LttP).

This is only doubled by how he seems to hold a not-so-subdued nostalgia for 80s / early 90s Nintendo, which could only explain all the more why he feels the way he does about Sonic.

And even if we don't believe him or any of his critiques to be any good, it's sad that literally all of his followers will, and their opinions will be backed up and considered valid by everyone in the gaming community due to the great Sonic hate-train everyone in the world likes to get on when it's convenient.

[JezMM]

Basically agreed with what has been said so far.

 

Have to add though, I've been enjoying the S3&K playthrough a fair bit generally, but I have to admit it's been frustrating me that whenever something awkward happens in the game, Arin is like SEE SEE SONIC IS BAD and Jirard is forced to agree that the particular thing that happened was bad, but the rest of the time where Jirard is clearly enjoying himself (obviously he must love the game to be confident in doing a 100% run during a let's play), the conversation is steered into jokes or off-topic conversations - all enjoyable but it is annoying that Arin is so completely blind to when the level design isn't being bullshitty (i.e. 90% of the time in S3&K) and the classic Sonic game design is working correctly and Jirard is making it look simple because he knows how to play.

[Kuzu]

The only issue I can see is how Arin is an internet celebrity and so people are going to take his words as fact instead of actually thinking about them logically, but that's everything on the Internet. 

 

 

Arin strikes me as a person that has a very old school mindset about games, and if I recall he has ADHD. He just wants to get from Point A to Point B and fuck literally everything else. Its a pretty standard 80's/90's gamer mindset, which is pretty understandable. Unfortunately, he's extremely adamant and unflinching in his beliefs even when presented with evidence that contradicts his views and ignores it. 

 

 

I don't think he really hates Sonic, he just doesn't understand how the classic games play and doesn't want to understand would rather blame the game. 

 

 

 

So in short, don't take his word at face value and actually form some opinions of your own :V

[Mr. Taxi]

If you think about it, Sonic doesn't do a lot of things Mega Man X does, for example. It just doesn't follow the same principles.

At some point I tried to see how Sonic taught you things, but it turns out I was never taught about anything. Well, actually, S3&K tries to teach you about the spindash but fails horribly. Sonic 2, however, may theoretically be beat without the spindash. It's just that much harder.

So it's natural that someone whose game design logic was built upon having something taught to him and then twisted to think Sonic is all over the place. But it isn't really, and the reasons why he dislikes Sonic are the very same reasons why I like it. It's because Sonic doesn't teach you that it doesn't expect you to know anything and just lets you do things your way. You may get killed for that, hut that's what the life system that includes collectibles is there. It's more about you wanting something and doing what you can to reach it. The speed, as I was arguing on the other thread, is more of a discretionary space for the player, a grey area in which they can do whatever they want as long as it makes you progress, even if there's a cost.

By the way, it's hard for me to think of momentum as a reward for playing well. That's because you use that momentum for something, and that'd be reaching otherwise unreachable areas, passing through dangers that would be very hard to go through if you had fallen there etc. I don't think there are many elements in Sonic that are rewards in themselves. And that's good, you always have to use what you built for yourself.

[Blacklightning]

At some point I tried to see how Sonic taught you things, but it turns out I was never taught about anything. Well, actually, S3&K tries to teach you about the spindash but fails horribly. Sonic 2, however, may theoretically be beat without the spindash. It's just that much harder.

[Mr. Taxi]

Have you ever let the Attract Mode run?

[shdowhunt60]

Honestly, I think people spend way too much time fussing over mechanics, and not having fun. I think Arin's the epitome of this. He's always complaining about this mechanic or that mechanic, or how this isn't a mechanic, and it's like... Dude, just shut up and have fun.

 

He's like the Rules Lawyer in a DnD group. Constantly getting in arguments with the DM over dice-rolls not going his way, or how this was an illegal move. 

 

The moment that made me think like this, was when he was complaining about Z-targeting in Zelda games, and how it all boiled down to the exact same strategy for fighting every enemy, and that was waiting for an opening and striking. But that's what I liked about fighting in Zelda games! I liked waiting for openings to happen, I liked standing toe-to-toe with enemies! That was what made it fun! It makes the fight feel more involving! Like you're actually fighting something, as opposed to just running around aimlessly swinging your sword at aimlessly wandering sprites!

[Kuzu]

You know, not everyone has fun the same way as you do, just saying.

Some people do find satisfaction in the deeper mechanics of a game.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nepenthe]

Fun through a game is achieved through its mechanics. There's literally no way to separate the two. If I'm not having fun with a game, it's because something between me and the game's design is not syncing up, not because I'm simply adamant on not enjoying it. Granted, the cause of this lack of sync could be due to my own lack of understanding or personal tastes and not because of any real mechanical fault on part of the game, which seems to be where Arin comes from more often than not when he talks about Sonic and it's something that should be called out and pinpointed. Regardless, telling people to "just have fun" with something that- to them- isn't designed in a fun way is an empty platitude. It's like telling me to "just enjoy" ranch dressing on pizza when it literally revolts me. It doesn't work. xP

[JezMM]

Have you ever let the Attract Mode run?

 

 

Around 35 seconds in, Sonic hits a slope and fails repeatedly to climb it under his own momentum. He's then seen crouching and doing a thing to Spindash. Considering every button does the same thing in classic Sonic, it's not hard to determine that thing is just pressing the jump button. Funnily enough, this draws a near-direct parrellel to one of the things Sequelitis praised MMX for - elements of gameplay that are visible even before the game has actually started proper. The very next demo shows rolling down slopes too, in case you're curious.

 

...you know what, I kinda miss Attract Modes in general now.

[Sean]

I don't take issue with Arin not liking the games, but rather his attitudes on what constitutes as good game design (hint: it's only good if it appeals to and caters for his precise mindset) and his supporters fancying his views to be a benchmark truth. Telling someone to "just have fun" is basically demanding them to outright change their opinion and interests to match your own, which is no better a position.

[MamboCat]

Tbh my first experience of Arin's videos was his Awesome Chaotix one; I thought it was kinda funny, instantly quoteable but I also thought it's kinda a low blow, considering how bad Chaotix can be (I enjoyed it though, even if it was just for the unusual game mechanics and getting to play as characters I hadn't played as before). Would he be just as bitchy about say, Sonic 3 and Knuckles? Hmm...

 

Sure the Sonic series has its problems, but I just think that Arin tends to take it a bit too far, yknow? Like, sure the Sonic 06 Game Grumps LP was looooong and they ran out of things to say, and uh, yeah it's Sonic 06(!) but I get the impression he can't stand the series as whole. Even the good games. So after a while it's like "Come on now, we get it. You don't like Sonic. Change the record already!!"

[Gabz Girl]

If Arin doesn't like Sonic, fine, that's like his opinion. For example I'm not big on God of War but I can appreciate what it's done for gaming since. I guess my problem is that his reasons for not liking Sonic are really flimsy and he doesn't even appreciate how important Sonic is to videogames in general. Can't he at least admit that Sonic is a unique platformer compared to crap like Bubsy?

[shdowhunt60]

Fun through a game is achieved through its mechanics. There's literally no way to separate the two. If I'm not having fun with a game, it's because something between me and the game's design is not syncing up, not because I'm simply adamant on not enjoying it. Granted, the cause of this lack of sync could be due to my own lack of understanding or personal tastes and not because of any real mechanical fault on part of the game, which seems to be where Arin comes from more often than not when he talks about Sonic and it's something that should be called out and pinpointed. Regardless, telling people to "just have fun" with something that- to them- isn't designed in a fun way is an empty platitude. It's like telling me to "just enjoy" ranch dressing on pizza when it literally revolts me. It doesn't work. xP

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I didn't knew that Egoraptor has such problems with Sonic...

[Mogtaki]

I don't think he really hates Sonic, he just doesn't understand how the classic games play and doesn't want to understand would rather blame the game

[biznizz]

Yeah, but even if you.arent a Mario 64 speedrun god, he still had more problems with that game that I've seen. But then again, that is one of Arin's major problems on his shows: he's more concerned with being funny than actually playing the game. He also likes to accentuate the negatives for comedic effect, which also doesnt help.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water, especially when his opinion is basically ''Sonic has never had a good game, and I'm gonna hate it for stupid reasons''. It came to a whole new level where Game Grumps did the Boom video and Egoraptor decided to mock Sonic fans and act like an asshole. For reference:

 

[Mogtaki]

Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water, especially when his opinion is basically ''Sonic has never had a good game, and I'm gonna hate it for stupid reasons''. It came to a whole new level where Game Grumps did the Boom video and Egoraptor decided to mock Sonic fans and act like an asshole. For reference:

 

That's the worst reference you could've given. Why give a reference that is completely out of context on two fronts? The reasons he doesn't like the games is something many people hold an opinion of on the same level, but you can't say their opinions don't matter just because you don't like them.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I didn't say they don't matter. I said I personally don't think they hold water. 

 

Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water,

 

if he gave some credible reasons as to why he didn't like the games, then sure it'd be fine, but many people here already stated they come down to things such as him not taking on board the controls, or just flat out not being good and then blaming that on the controls, or cheap level design, or something else that's Sega's fault and not his own. Plus, I just don't like how he seems determined on saying over and over again that Sonic sucks. Again, like it was said here, in Sonic 3 let's play, he keeps going on about ''that's why I don't like Sonic''. It feels like he's constantly shoving that opinion in your face.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Quite frankly, I don't really think Egoraptor's opinion on Sonic holds any water, especially when his opinion is basically ''Sonic has never had a good game, and I'm gonna hate it for stupid reasons''. It came to a whole new level where Game Grumps did the Boom video and Egoraptor decided to mock Sonic fans and act like an asshole. For reference:

 

Gonna have to agree, this is terribly out of context:

https://youtu.be/4KZExNrr0N8?t=449