Sonic Boom: Fire & Ice

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

Hmmm I'm still wondering what those Green pieces are. (On the top right of the screen)

 

They look like Master Emerald shards... Or Crystal Shards...

 

This is sounding TOO FAMILIAR...

[Salamander]

Hmmm I'm still wondering what those Green pieces are. (On the top right of the screen)

 

They look like Master Emerald shards... Or Crystal Shards...

 

This is sounding TOO FAMILIAR...

 

I watched a section of the video, and it seemed Sonic acquired them whenever he defeated an enemy.  So... maybe they're ragnium crystals powering the robots?

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

I watched a section of the video, and it seemed Sonic acquired them whenever he defeated an enemy.  So... maybe they're ragnium crystals powering the robots?

Huh, That might actually be the case...

[LindseyWalker]

I've been away for a while learning about the games and this franchise and I'm pretty much up to snuff now. I've seen this anti Pontac and Graff sentiment around the internet and it's a bit puzzling frankly.

 

Pontac and Graff are just writers, they probably don't have complete omnipotent scenario and plot control like a lot of fans seem to think. These games are Japanese and will be formulated in the Japanese studios. I read that the Deadly Six in Lost World were down to Sonic Team and, honestly, I think Pontac and Graff did really well with them in that game, considering how hopeless and two-dimensional their personalities were. Again, their personalities are probably down to Sonic Team and the original Japanese script writers more than Pontac and Graff.

 

Seriously, they are two extremely talented writers. The quality of writing in the latest games (barring Rise of Lyric) are far better than any Sonic game previously, including the Adventure titles. It's the scenario writers who aren't that great, and that will be down to Sonic Team and the Japanese scenario writers.

[Mauro Fonseca]

And how does Tails reach this conclusion? Why does he believe Sonic doesn't trust him?

Because Eggman started the whole mess, yet Sonic goes along with him. He can't feel Sonic's guilt.

 

And I say it's incoherent, because subplots get brought up and dropped all the time, and nothing is ever explained.

Let's see.

 

Who are the Deadly Six?

The Zeti living in the Lost Hex.

 

What is the Cocophonous Conch and where does it come from?

A conch that when blown on has the effect of causing pain on the Zeti. We're not told where it comes from, but there are more than one.

 

Why is Eggman on the Lost Hex in the first place?

To put animals into robots and conquer land, same as always. Additionally, to suck up the Planet's energy without being affected by it himself.

 

Why are Amy and Knuckles even there?

To protect the animals in whatever event happened before the start of the game which led to Sonic and Tails chasing Eggman.

 

Why isn't Knuckles guarding the Master Emerald?

Because no-one at SEGA's cared for that plotpoint in a good while.

I mean, argue all you want it was a stupid plot, badly written, bad character motivations, whatever. Incoherent? More incoherent than Rise of Lyric? I've no problem with hyperbolics, but there comes a point where you have to remember you're being hyperbolic, or you'll actually sound like you mean it. The plot is so simple you can explain it in 4 or 5 simple lines.

 

• Eggman conquers a new piece of land and its natives through a dog conch whistle, captures animals, and makes a machine to suck up the planet's energy.
• Sonic goes to stop him, in the process worsening the situation as the native Zeti now hold the power and plan to use Eggman's machine to destroy the planet.
• Sonic teams up with Eggman out of guilt, making Tails feel left out and hurt that Sonic'd apparently choose the villain's help over his - and then Tails gets captured when saving Sonic, increasing Sonic's guilt.
• Tails gets put in a robot-making machine, but programs it to not brainwash him and goes along for appearances, while Eggman fakes his death in order to be free to take advantage of events when Sonic stops the Zeti.
• Sonic stops the Zeti and goes with Tails to stop the machine, only to find out Eggman took the chance to grab all the energy the Zeti had accumulated to power his new mech.
• Sonic stops Eggman, restores the planet's energy, and enjoys a nap.

 

There, what was that. 6 lines? With very simple structure? That's a simple plot. Easy to follow. Are you honestly going to tell me this was confusing? Moreso even than RoL's?

[SlickEvan]

I like that they reverted to normal springs and checkpoints but does that kinda melds the universes together. Maybe a little bit of design difference would help but I still like it. I LOVE the changes to the spindash. It's actually almost like a spindash! Look's really smooth too.

 

Something I noticed is that Sonic's forward dashes seem to have momentum now, kinda like an actual jump dash thing. Like it carries your momentum. 

 

The fire and ice mechanic looks a bit too forced. The player was stopping to show of things but oh man, it was almost everywhere and a bit of them led into the automatic segments which makes it kinda worse. Mediocre mechanic into Non-Controllable section is really just eh.

 

Overall I'm like it so far, some more platforming mechanics have been adding like moving platforms, visual checkpoints, and less (from what we've seen so far) Homing attack chains. Hope it stays looking on the up and up.

 

Lost World Below:

 

If you throw away every game before Lost World, then Lost World Tails' Subplot makes sense. Else they pretty threw up a random moment for Tails to be mad. Yeah it makes for new character 'development', show's a new side of emotion from Tails and it would work IF it wasn't out of nowhere. Nowhere meaning the established games that came before making sure we knew Sonic and Tails were the BEST of buds, every lovingly trusting. It's like they kinda threw away that just to make that moment.

 

You could say that it makes the moment stronger but if it had a better build up then I'd maybe agree but all in all, at the very start of the team up Tails show's no problems with it, then he decides to be upset because Eggman is helping them but wait- Eggman helping became the staple for games for awhile after Adventure 2, so it just doesn't make sense. Tails has trusted Eggman to help many times in the past for dire conditions and this machine is literally sucking the life out of the world they live in and their friends. Eggman made the machine, why shouldn't he help? Tails know's he's Sonic's right hand man and has trusted Eggman before, so why should he be mad?

 

Maybe in SA2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow, and 06 the things they had to stop weren't mechanical but nonetheless Sonic took Eggumans help without Tails getting angry. Sure in all those games Egguman just spat Exposition (excluding SA2) but nonetheless it's exposition that Tails probably could have figured out too.

[SSF1991]

Looked up info on the writing for last year's Boom games and all I could find was a NWR interview where Pontac and Graff were confirmed to be writers for Shattered Crystal. Not much on Rise of Lyric.

 

As far as Colors and Generations go they explained things before

Actually, this WAS the first time that Warren and I were asked to come up with the story. On Colors and Generations the stories were already in place.

[FriendBot]

Actually, Pontac and Graff weren't the only people that wrote Shattered Crystal's story, there's also a Tin Guerrero that helped out as well. So yeah.....

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

I've been away for a while learning about the games and this franchise and I'm pretty much up to snuff now. I've seen this anti Pontac and Graff sentiment around the internet and it's a bit puzzling frankly.

 

Pontac and Graff are just writers, they probably don't have complete omnipotent scenario and plot control like a lot of fans seem to think. These games are Japanese and will be formulated in the Japanese studios. I read that the Deadly Six in Lost World were down to Sonic Team and, honestly, I think Pontac and Graff did really well with them in that game, considering how hopeless and two-dimensional their personalities were. Again, their personalities are probably down to Sonic Team and the original Japanese script writers more than Pontac and Graff.

 

Seriously, they are two extremely talented writers. The quality of writing in the latest games (barring Rise of Lyric) are far better than any Sonic game previously, including the Adventure titles. It's the scenario writers who aren't that great, and that will be down to Sonic Team and the Japanese scenario writers.

P&G get a lot of shit for their cringe-worthy dialogue. SLW was a sub-par plot to begin with, yes, but dialogue like "Baldy-McNosehair", "I think you've been itching all day because you need a bath.", "That's funny because I know the perfect spot to kick you.", "Oh my gosh, are you serious? I'm so, so sorry... Oh no, what I mean to say is I am so sorry you have nothing more important to do in life.", etc didn't have to exist to get it's story across. It's dialogue that seems far more juvenile than before, and to be honest, the delivery in previous games is what made lines like "Aw yeah, this happenin'" cringe-worthy. Maybe, I'm simply blinded by nostalgia, but I find the writing in these newer games to be far more cringe-worthy than anything in the older titles. 

Looked up info on the writing for last year's Boom games and all I could find was a NWR interview where Pontac and Graff were confirmed to be writers for Shattered Crystal. Not much on Rise of Lyric.

 

As far as Colors and Generations go they explained things before

 

They wrote the story to Lost World themselves and I wouldn't be surprised if the same applied to Shattered Crystal. What I believe they meant is how the plot would carry out in Colors and Generations was decided by SEGA (i.e. Tails being brainwashed in Colors and the Eggmen teaming up in Generations) but the dialogue wasn't. Now Pontac and Graff handle both.

Oh, never mind then, it goes beyond dialogue...

[Wittymations]

Because machines are his thing. Early cutscenes reinforce that he's a mechanical genius. Why would Sonic trust a guy who tries to kill them on a weekly basis to disable a machine, when he's already got a genius sidekick?

Because Eggman would know his own program before Tails would. I mean, any software would first need to be reversed engineered. Eggman would likely have developed his own operating system and everything.

 

But i don't think Pontac and Graff is that capable when it comes to technology. Since the final scene has Tails, somehow, change its basic engineering by clicking a few buttons. If the schematics were never designed that way in the first place, it's impossible without editing the machine's design.

 

But then, building a computer out of paper clips or whatever is a science impossibility too.

[Mauro Fonseca]

It's almost as if we're following cartoon rules that allow things such as ladybug robots with small animals inside that pop easily on slight impact

[Fletch]

Like the new gameplay that was shown off at Sonic's 24th birthday event! Still a bit on the fence regarding the fire & ice gimmick, but from what I seen it doesn't just tie into platforming, but it does also tie into the exploration of the level. I noticed that Sonic still retains his spin dash in the game, which is cool. Hope a demo for the game release soon so I can play it!

[Wittymations]

I'm aware that cartoon logic can be flexible.

 

I can overlook the live battery thing. Especially when you can make comparison to Chaos Drives and the animals, as they do similar things for Chao -- raising stats. Which states they're power sources. The popping with ease is merely a gameplay mechanic, Unleashed goes out of its way to coolify the introduction.

 

See, I'm not asking for absolute science fiction perfection. But try, a little. Hell, this nonsense does more work at making laughable computer fantasy slightly more believable.

 

I'm willing to bet that Pontac and Graff barely know a thing about computers themselves.

[Diogenes]

P&G get a lot of shit for their cringe-worthy dialogue. SLW was a sub-par plot to begin with, yes, but dialogue like "Baldy-McNosehair", "I think you've been itching all day because you need a bath.", "That's funny because I know the perfect spot to kick you.", "Oh my gosh, are you serious? I'm so, so sorry... Oh no, what I mean to say is I am so sorry you have nothing more important to do in life.", etc didn't have to exist to get it's story across. It's dialogue that seems far more juvenile than before, and to be honest, the delivery in previous games is what made lines like "Aw yeah, this happenin'" cringe-worthy. Maybe, I'm simply blinded by nostalgia, but I find the writing in these newer games to be far more cringe-worthy than anything in the older titles.

It's true that not every joke hits the mark. But they're not all failures, and I appreciate them for actually giving Sonic an attitude, for making him the abrasive little punk that they used to market him as. If all you did was cut those lines, you'd have a pretty boring character.

 

Because Eggman would know his own program before Tails would. I mean, any software would first need to be reversed engineered. Eggman would likely have developed his own operating system and everything.

Yeah, and that's the interesting thing: both Sonic and Tails have understandable reasons for feeling the way they do. Sonic already fucked things up once, and he doesn't want to risk his (fully justified) grudge against Eggman getting people hurt, especially after Tails almost got blasted. And Tails feels a bit betrayed by this because Sonic's always trusted him with machines before, and he can't get inside Sonic's head and see why he's doing it.

A lot of people try to reduce P&G's interpretations of the characters to joke-spewing caricatures, but in Lost World I think they put more thought into the characters' feelings than most "serious" Sonic games have.

But i don't think Pontac and Graff is that capable when it comes to technology. Since the final scene has Tails, somehow, change its basic engineering by clicking a few buttons. If the schematics were never designed that way in the first place, it's impossible without editing the machine's design.

 

But then, building a computer out of paper clips or whatever is a science impossibility too.

This, though, like KKM said, is just cartoon logic. It's like complaining that Sonic can run so fast.

[Wittymations]

A lot of people try to reduce P&G's interpretations of the characters to joke-spewing caricatures, but in Lost World I think they put more thought into the characters' feelings than most "serious" Sonic games have.

I'm one not fond of their style but I will admit that Pontac and Graff did have some moments that did hit home a bit. It's really the only game where I felt even remotely bad for Sonic.

 

Besides the jokes and dialogue, one problem I have is that there's some points brought up and never brought up again. For instance, Eggman saving Tails' life. Really, why? Eggman had absolutely nothing to gain from doing so, it wasn't really brought up again afterwards. What was the point? It didn't distill Tails' distrust in Eggman (if you wanted Tails to go, 'maybe he's not so bad' that'd been the way to do it). It just... happened. Which while a cool scene in its own way, doesn't really have much affect on the plot.

 

Same for Eggman getting PO'd and tearing that wall up. If he shot giant Zavok or something, he, would have done the scene justice. But that didn't.

 

Not everything PG does is bad, some are legitimately good. But its best as isolated scenes. I think The're mostly messy.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I think accusing them of not understanding computers due to writing jokes where they're purposefully bullshitting Tails' abilities to exaggerate them is like accusing Yuji Naka of being too stupid to not realise hedgehogs aren't race cars, being honest.

[Diogenes]

Besides the jokes and dialogue, one problem I have is that there's some points brought up and never brought up again. For instance, Eggman saving Tails' life. Really, why? Eggman had absolutely nothing to gain from doing so, it wasn't really brought up again afterwards. What was the point? It didn't distill Tails' distrust in Eggman (if you wanted Tails to go, 'maybe he's not so bad' that'd been the way to do it). It just... happened. Which while a cool scene in its own way, doesn't really have much affect on the plot.

Eggman's whole plan was to use Sonic and Tails to get past the Zeti and retake control of his machine. Letting Tails get hurt would put one of his stooges out of action, distract Sonic from fighting the Zeti, and possibly turn Sonic against him if he realized Eggman let it happen. It's all about keeping up the facade of cooperation.

Same for Eggman getting PO'd and tearing that wall up. If he shot giant Zavok or something, he, would have done the scene justice. But that didn't.

It's Eggman, he's prone to tantrums, it's only expected that he'd throw a fit after being taunted by the punks who wrecked his shit and stole his robots. Also, whether intentional on his part or not, it again reinforces that he and the heroes are on the same side.

Though I admit it would've been really cool to have him show up in his mech and finish off Zavok, both for revenge and as a display of his mech's power, rather than just showing up afterwards.

[Wittymations]

Eggman's whole plan was to use Sonic and Tails to get past the Zeti and retake control of his machine. Letting Tails get hurt would put one of his stooges out of action, distract Sonic from fighting the Zeti, and possibly turn Sonic against him if he realized Eggman let it happen. It's all about keeping up the facade of cooperation.

 

honestly, Sonic was doing most of the work, if not all of it. I feel like Sonic wouldn't stop doing so if Tails was axed off. He still has a world to save. I don't believe Sonic would jump to the conclusion that Eggman just let it happen, He probably wouldn't thing Eggman would be capable enough to jump in and be a hero.

 

It's Eggman, he's prone to tantrums, it's only expected that he'd throw a fit after being taunted by the punks who wrecked his shit and stole his robots. Also, whether intentional on his part or not, it again reinforces that he and the heroes are on the same side.

 

Of course, but I don't feel like it really adds anything to the story. More like building a bride then swimming across. 

 

 

If saving Tails was utilized to make Tails believe more in Eggman, then I'd see it. If Eggman got revenge, then the ice wall scene would have been justified.

 

I mean, we all know Eggman's still evil, even kids. But at least make the other characters doubt just how bad he is. 

Or more so, make this team up feel like a team up. Because as it stands, it feels like Tails and Eggman following Sonic around.

[shdowhunt60]

Because machines are his thing. Early cutscenes reinforce that he's a mechanical genius. Why would Sonic trust a guy who tries to kill them on a weekly basis to disable a machine, when he's already got a genius sidekick?

 

Early cutscenes establish how terribly flanderized Tails is as a character, and how Pontac and Graff have absolutely no clue how to write Tails by making him a bratty little passive aggressive snot. That's grossly out of character.

 

Secondly, the prior cutscene was as followed: Eggman proposes teaming up, Sonic and Tails laugh at him, the two walk off with Eggman trailing behind.

 

There's a serious disconnect here between that and the next scene where Tails flat out accuses Sonic of trusting Eggman more than him. Where was it even established that Sonic trusted him in the slightest? The prior scene has him blowing off Eggman entirely, before reluctantly allowing him to tag along. What part of the communicated trust?

 

Hell, the Frozen Factory scene FURTHER contradicts this, by beginning with Sonic and Eggman bickering, establishing even more that these two are clearly not in a friendly relationship.

 

If you still don't think this is bullshit, and that Sonic really DOES trust Eggman more (which is frankly asinine), consider this for a moment. This is one of gamings greatest and longest lasting bromances we're talking about. What does it speak for Sonic and Tails' relationship when Eggman tagging behind is enough to set Tails off? Is it really saying that Sonic doesn't trust Tails? Or is it that Tails doesn't trust Sonic? Is Tails really that insecure that the very moment that he perceives a threat, he goes full PMS mode and starts throwing accusations? This whole scenario paints Tails in a very bad light.

[Alienrun]

Seriously, they are two extremely talented writers. The quality of writing in the latest games (barring Rise of Lyric) are far better than any Sonic game previously, including the Adventure titles. It's the scenario writers who aren't that great, and that will be down to Sonic Team and the Japanese scenario writers.

 

Just like you I didn't grow up with the adventure games, but I fail to see how the new stuff is BETTER than those, ESPECIALLY SA2! It might seems very silly at first glance, but once you understand what it was going for, you can see that it fits with what is was trying to do near perfectly. And I don't see how RoL is significantly worse than LW or Gens, The characters are supposed to act dumb, so its justifiable, in Colors and LW they tried to be funny and fail!

 

Also please don't say your "up to snuff" with sonic. It took me 4 FREAKING YEARS to completely wrap my head around the whole thing, including the fanbase! I doubt that you could do all that in just a few months!

 

Not trying to make you feel bad, just say what you know and know what you say! Don't try to do more than you can handle! learning is always a very delicate process!

[Diogenes]

Early cutscenes establish how terribly flanderized Tails is as a character, and how Pontac and Graff have absolutely no clue how to write Tails by making him a bratty little passive aggressive snot. That's grossly out of character.

That's a ridiculously mangled and uncharitable interpretation of his characterization, that I can only interpret as slander in hindsight. As in, the story pissed you off, so you went back and reinterpreted it as bad as you possibly could to try and justify your feelings.

Secondly, the prior cutscene was as followed: Eggman proposes teaming up, Sonic and Tails laugh at him, the two walk off with Eggman trailing behind.

 

There's a serious disconnect here between that and the next scene where Tails flat out accuses Sonic of trusting Eggman more than him. Where was it even established that Sonic trusted him in the slightest? The prior scene has him blowing off Eggman entirely, before reluctantly allowing him to tag along. What part of the communicated trust?

I won't deny that it's sloppy and feels like they skipped a scene or two, but the fact that the three of them were in one of Eggman's bases makes it clear enough that they're cooperating.

Hell, the Frozen Factory scene FURTHER contradicts this, by beginning with Sonic and Eggman bickering, establishing even more that these two are clearly not in a friendly relationship.

There's no contradiction. They don't have to be friendly to be cooperating.

If you still don't think this is bullshit, and that Sonic really DOES trust Eggman more (which is frankly asinine),

Hey, guess what, that was never my point. My point was that Tails felt like he did.

This is one of gamings greatest and longest lasting bromances we're talking about. What does it speak for Sonic and Tails' relationship when Eggman tagging behind is enough to set Tails off? Is it really saying that Sonic doesn't trust Tails? Or is it that Tails doesn't trust Sonic? Is Tails really that insecure that the very moment that he perceives a threat, he goes full PMS mode and starts throwing accusations? This whole scenario paints Tails in a very bad light.

"Full PMS mode" is again one of those instances of reinterpreting things as being worse than they are. If this is what you consider a ridiculous freakout, I can only imagine your ideal characterization would be "inanimate".

As for the bromance...would it be better to explore something like this earlier in their friendship? Probably, but barring a reboot we don't have that option. I would rather someone actually explore the relationships by the characters, even if it's late, over keeping strictly to the rote, calcified interactions we had before. At least the conflict is interesting and shows sides of the characters we rarely see, which is better than "Tails shows vague admiration for Sonic, check".

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

Word has it that SEGA's coming to Gamescom:

 

http://www.playnation.de/spiele-news/gamescom-2015/hallenplan-so-findet-ihr-wichtigsten-entwickler-publisher-id61372.html

 

Site's in German, they'll be in Hall 9. 

 

We might get some Fire and Ice info there?

[Detective Shadzter]

Just noticed the Nintendo UK product page is up. Has it been posted yet? Not sure if there is anything new in the info or gallery.

http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Nintendo-3DS/Sonic-Boom-Fire-Ice-1025449.html#Overview

[goku262002]

Confimed: "Sonic Mach2" is Sonic Boom Fire and Ice.

[shdowhunt60]

And confirmed, people are still harassing poor Iizuka.