Sonic Boom: Fire & Ice

[Tara]

7 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

Plus isn't Fire and Ice a Metriodvaniah game? I'm sure it'll have a heavy emphasis on exploration. 

Pretty sure an interview that was released early on said that exploration would still be a component, but there would be less emphasis on it.  At least, less by comparison to Shattered Crystal.  I don't know if that just means they're going to make collectables optional or if they're going to just focus on straightforward platforming.

Either way, it's moot because six stages and four boss fights is actually pretty standard length for a game.  Perfectly acceptable if it the game's actual pacing is good.  The problem is that the gameplay we've seen really doesn't show a significant change in actual gameplay mechanics from Shattered Crystal.  I'd go so far as to say that the fire and ice mechanics and the addition to play as Amy are the only changes in the gameplay of the original game.  So if you didn't like Shattered Crystal, which as far as I can see most people didn't, then there's not exactly much beyond completionist reasons to entice you to play the game.

[Salamander]

There's very little in this new block of information that is actually new.  Maybe the number of levels/worlds total, but there's a pretty good argument that all four of those bosses have been on the game's box art all along (spider thing, punchy thing, D. Fekt, Eggman).  (Edit: I retract my point about the bosses; watching the trailer again, it shows two giant bosses which don't appear on the cover at all, which makes one wonder where the spider thing and the punchy thing come in if there are only four bosses total.)  It doesn't sound like the delay produced a great deal of new content, though if their argument is that the existing content was improved, then that's fair enough.  It's pretty clear that the main purpose of the delay was to have a handheld game to release alongside the anniversary game later this year, though.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Adding polish has never meant adding new content.

Sadly due to the blackout of information we might never know if this game was actually in development or if it's just been sat on for a year.

[SuperAj3]

1 hour ago, Detective Hogfather said:

Adding polish has never meant adding new content.

Sadly due to the blackout of information we might never know if this game was actually in development or if it's just been sat on for a year.

Seeing as Sanzaru last posted on Twitter June 2015 (last E3), it either means they've been working hard daily, or yeah, they've let it sit.

I'd love to think they'd add something extra, given they've had an extra year. Do you think now that Iizuka's in America he's checking up on Sanzaru as well?

[Badnik Mechanic]

The lead engineer for Sonic Boom Fire & Ice is no longer working on the game. Lists it as being 'shipped/shipping'

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-gilardi-0a33aa12?trk=seokp-title_posts_secondary_cluster_res_author_name

[Graystripe2000]

I was thinking. Since PAX East is this weekend, maybe the game will be there. 

[Dejimon11]

7 hours ago, Tara said:

Pretty sure an interview that was released early on said that exploration would still be a component, but there would be less emphasis on it.  At least, less by comparison to Shattered Crystal.  I don't know if that just means they're going to make collectables optional or if they're going to just focus on straightforward platforming.

Either way, it's moot because six stages and four boss fights is actually pretty standard length for a game.  Perfectly acceptable if it the game's actual pacing is good.  The problem is that the gameplay we've seen really doesn't show a significant change in actual gameplay mechanics from Shattered Crystal.  I'd go so far as to say that the fire and ice mechanics and the addition to play as Amy are the only changes in the gameplay of the original game.  So if you didn't like Shattered Crystal, which as far as I can see most people didn't, then there's not exactly much beyond completionist reasons to entice you to play the game.

I think what they meant was that it won't be as mandatory to explore in order to progress through the game as it was in the previous title. I'm sure they'll be a lot of things to collect in order to 100% and get a reward.

[SpongicX]

23 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

Game content/length and game design are two different issues entirely. 

And yes, RoL is worse than Shattered Crystal. Having more padding does not a better game make.

I don't see how boring and repetitive side scrolling gameplay, sluggish and floaty controls, easily avoidable and pointless enemies, horrible cutscenes, incredibly dumb ending, terrible graphics and low res textures are better than Rise of Lyric. Shattered Crystal was such a waste of $40, I ended up deleting the digital game  download off of my 3ds after beating it. Not to mention how awful the reward was for finding all the medals in the game. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Shattered Crystal is better either hasn't played Rise of Lyric all the way through, or they are too clouded by Sega Genesis side scroller nostalgia to realize how bad and rushed it actually is. 

 

[Tails spin]

Shattered Crystal is at least playable unlike ROL. Which screams broken. Let's not forget that SC got a sequel and ROL didnt for a reason.

[FriendBot]

Oh Rise of Lyric was definitely playable, it's buggy yes but you can certainly beat the game no problem.

[Tara]

56 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

I don't see how boring and repetitive side scrolling gameplay, sluggish and floaty controls, easily avoidable and pointless enemies, horrible cutscenes, incredibly dumb ending, terrible graphics and low res textures are better than Rise of Lyric. Shattered Crystal was such a waste of $40, I ended up deleting the digital game  download off of my 3ds after beating it. Not to mention how awful the reward was for finding all the medals in the game. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Shattered Crystal is better either hasn't played Rise of Lyric all the way through, or they are too clouded by Sega Genesis side scroller nostalgia to realize how bad and rushed it actually is. 

 

First, you could stand to learn to respect the opinions of other people.  Under that same logic, I could say that you're believing that Shattered Crystal is worse is blind favoritism toward 3D Sonic.  Second, many of your criticisms are valid but some of them really don't have anything to do with the actual design philosophies of the game.

I pre-ordered and played both games all the way and think that RoL is technically worse, because all the shit you described about Shattered Crystal are also present in RoL but magnified tenfold, not helped by the amount of game-breaking glitches that have a tendency to trap you or the '06-levels of difficult to control speed and vehicle sections (especially on the water uuuuuuuuuugh).  And the dialogue.  Oh my god, the dialogue.

The only reason I find Shattered Crystal "better," (and when I say "better" I still think it's pretty bad) is because the controls aren't constantly betraying me.  Unlike Rise of Lyric, I feel it's easy to get a rhythm for Shattered Crystal after awhile to the point where it just becomes formulaic.  To be honest, that's pretty much the most annoying thing about both games.  I actually find both games to be mostly just mediocre.  Shattered Crystal's biggest problem is honestly that it's just boring to the point where I almost wish it were a broken mess just so I would have something more to say about it.  I actually thought Rise of Lyric was better briefly (namely because at least RoL lets me beat up robots on a fairly regular basis) until I played them side-by-side and found them both to be bad, but found Shattered Crystal to slightly less torturous.

[Chris Knopps]

On 4/12/2016 at 8:26 AM, Dashman said:

The trailer has been translated and updated with some new music

...Ha ha.

The west tries to make Sonic cool in a nerdy-geeky way in their trailer, while the east focus on the epic/Hollywood sensation the franchise is known for...

One point for the east. Good music in that trailer.

...Sh@t I wish the west would stop making a dork out of Sonic...

[FriendBot]

Sonic was always kind of a dork tho.

[Tara]

16 minutes ago, sansy said:

Sonic was always kind of a dork tho.

I think his complaint is the type of dork, though, and I guess I can sort of see that.  The east (I guess) tries to sell him as an exciting and fun character, the other tries to sell him as some pop cultural relevant thing.  Compare, for example, Colors Sonic, who is more stoic than his previous incarnations but still a decent person, to Boom Sonic, who is unabashedly cynical and constantly sick of people's shit.  I'm not sure his actual assessment of the two depictions of Sonic is accurate, but there is an obvious difference between the way Japan and the west attempt to sell Sonic as a character.

[FriendBot]

1 minute ago, Tara said:

I think his complaint is the type of dork, though, and I guess I can sort of see that.  The east (I guess) tries to sell him as an exciting and fun character, the other tries to sell him as some pop cultural relevant thing.  Compare, for example, Colors Sonic, who is more stoic than his previous incarnations but still a decent person, to Boom Sonic, who is unabashedly cynical and constantly sick of people's shit.  I'm not sure his actual assessment of the two depictions of Sonic is accurate, but there is an obvious difference between the way Japan and the west attempt to sell Sonic as a character.

Well it doesn't sound like he's asking a specific type of dorkiniess, just "SEGA should stop making Sonic acting like a dork", not "SEGA should stop making Sonic into the down-to-earth and regular type of dork".

I'm not saying there's a difference between how SoJ and SoA depicts Sonic, there is a difference. The trailer music used for F&I kinda tells as much.

[Tara]

5 minutes ago, sansy said:

Well it doesn't sound like he's asking a specific type of dorkiniess, just "SEGA should stop making Sonic acting like a dork", not "SEGA should stop making Sonic into the down-to-earth and regular type of dork".

I'm not saying there's a difference between how SoJ and SoA depicts Sonic, there is a difference. The trailer music used for F&I kinda tells as much.

I mean, I only think that's the argument at play, or at least the one I choose to see because I can empathize with it. XP

I guess it depends on what you consider a "dork," but yeah.

[Indigo Rush]

5 hours ago, SpongicX said:

I don't see how boring and repetitive side scrolling gameplay, sluggish and floaty controls, easily avoidable and pointless enemies, horrible cutscenes, incredibly dumb ending, terrible graphics and low res textures are better than Rise of Lyric.

Open your heart, and you will see

5 hours ago, SpongicX said:

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Shattered Crystal is better either hasn't played Rise of Lyric all the way through, or they are too clouded by Sega Genesis side scroller nostalgia to realize how bad and rushed it actually is. 

Cool false dichotomy, bro

[Haalyle]

I haven't played Rise of Lyric yet, I wish to though, but Shattered Crystal isn't too bad. I'm actually having a bit of fun. (Pfft, and what to do you expect dude, 3DS isn't know for its hyper realistic graphics, the music isn't too bad and the gameplay is fairly decent.)

(This is coming from someone who has no nostalgia from side-scrollers. In fact, I have no nostalgia from side-scrollers.)

[Tara]

10 minutes ago, Haalyle said:

I haven't played Rise of Lyric yet, I wish to though, but Shattered Crystal isn't too bad. I'm actually having a bit of fun. (Pfft, and what to do you expect dude, 3DS isn't know for its hyper realistic graphics, the music isn't too bad and the gameplay is fairly decent.)

I'd argue that even for 3DS standards, the graphics in Shattered Crystal are NOTICEABLY outdated by about ten years.  But Rise of Lyric's graphics also look dated by about ten years, so it's not really any better in that regard.  The difference is that ten years between consoles and handhelds is quite different in terms of graphical capability, so Shattered Crystal arguably looks worse only because it looks outdated for a medium that is literally always outdated.

[Haalyle]

I've seen some pretty terrible games on handheld systems in my time, Shattered Crystal would be in the average range.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

11 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

...Ha ha.

The west tries to make Sonic cool in a nerdy-geeky way in their trailer, while the east focus on the epic/Hollywood sensation the franchise is known for...

One point for the east. Good music in that trailer.

...Sh@t I wish the west would stop making a dork out of Sonic...

You may need to be mjch more specific, because otherwise, this just comes off as needless contempt towards Sonic Team USA despite the easternteam's many

11 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

...Ha ha.

The west tries to make Sonic cool in a nerdy-geeky way in their trailer, while the east focus on the epic/Hollywood sensation the franchise is known for...

One point for the east. Good music in that trailer.

...Sh@t I wish the west would stop making a dork out of Sonic...

You may need to be mjch more specific, because otherwise, this just comes off as needless contempt towards Sonic Team USA despite the easternteam's many faults themselves.

[SpongicX]

9 hours ago, Tails spin said:

Shattered Crystal is at least playable unlike ROL. Which screams broken. Let's not forget that SC got a sequel and ROL didnt for a reason.

I love how everyone tries acting like the game never got a patch that fixed most of the bugs... 

[SpongicX]

8 hours ago, Tara said:

 

I pre-ordered and played both games all the way and think that RoL is technically worse, because all the shit you described about Shattered Crystal are also present in RoL but magnified tenfold, not helped by the amount of game-breaking glitches that have a tendency to trap you or the '06-levels of difficult to control speed and vehicle sections (especially on the water uuuuuuuuuugh).  And the dialogue.  Oh my god, the dialogue.

The only reason I find Shattered Crystal "better," (and when I say "better" I still think it's pretty bad) is because the controls aren't constantly betraying me.  Unlike Rise of Lyric, I feel it's easy to get a rhythm for Shattered Crystal after awhile to the point where it just becomes formulaic.  To be honest, that's pretty much the most annoying thing about both games.  I actually find both games to be mostly just mediocre.  Shattered Crystal's biggest problem is honestly that it's just boring to the point where I almost wish it were a broken mess just so I would have something more to say about it.  I actually thought Rise of Lyric was better briefly (namely because at least RoL lets me beat up robots on a fairly regular basis) until I played them side-by-side and found them both to be bad, but found Shattered Crystal to slightly less torturous.

You're saying the dialogue in ROL is bad? Have you looked at the text in Shattered Crystal? None of their jokes were funny, and the characters were just having mindless chatter, instead of focusing on saving their friend, and stopping Lyric. Rise Of Lyric at least had some comical moments. ROL is a longer game, it has more to do, more to explore, more moves and abilities from each character, upgrades, more variety, more cutscenes, more boss fights, much better graphics, fun co-op, better music, and more. 

At least Rise Of Lyric had some element of challenge to it, unlike Shattered Crystal. In Rise of Lyric, you have to face robots occasionally, which gives the baddies a reason to be in the game. In Shattered Crystal, they are just standing around, and offer no purpose in the game. The game's tutorial makes it sound like you'll need to destroy the robots throughout the game, but what's the point? you can easily avoid them, and nothing rewarding comes out of defeating them. In Rise Of Lyric, you got scraps to open new areas, or fix broken machines and objects. In Shattered Crystal, the robots serve no rewards. 

Rise Of Lyric also has better replay value. Even after collecting all hidden items, Rise of Lyric can still be fun to replay, due to it's big worlds and variety. After collecting everything in Shattered Crystal, the game is absolutely boring, you no longer have an objective in the game. Each characters' abilities are mostly for finding new items, but with all the items collected, there's nothing else to explore. In Rise Of Lyric, each level has different ways to advance through the levels using 2-4 characters to switch between. I found it more fun to control the characters and explore in Rise Of Lyric, compared to just slowly running left and right across very bland looking environments. 

Also, there is no excuse for Shattered Crystal to look so bad. The 3ds is much more capable than that. Just look at Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games. That game has great graphics for a 3ds game, it looks like a Wii game, which is actually impressive for the 3ds' limitations. 3ds is capable of many other great looking games, like Kid Icarus Uprising, Star Fox 64 3d, Mario Kart 8, Resident Evil Revelations, Monster Hunter 4, and more. It's sad to see all the 3ds Sonic games ended up looking so terrible and rushed. The only good looking Sonic games on 3ds, were the Mario & Sonic games, and his appearance in Super Smash Bros. for 3ds. I will admit that Shattered Crystal looked better than Lost World on 3ds, but barely. 

3 hours ago, Tara said:

I'd argue that even for 3DS standards, the graphics in Shattered Crystal are NOTICEABLY outdated by about ten years.  But Rise of Lyric's graphics also look dated by about ten years, so it's not really any better in that regard.  The difference is that ten years between consoles and handhelds is quite different in terms of graphical capability, so Shattered Crystal arguably looks worse only because it looks outdated for a medium that is literally always outdated.

It may not have entirely, but Rise of Lyric did have some great graphics at moments in the game. For the most part, the character models looked colorful, very detailed and well textured on their fur, clothing, and the reflections of their eyes. I honestly don't get why everyone thinks the graphics suck, they do suck in some areas, but if you look close, there actually is some great amount of detail put into it. It's more pleasant to look at than Sonic Lost World. That game had too much color, and a high lack of textures. RoL may not have had the best graphics, but it was still better than most games you could find on a PS2 or Wii. 

[Tara]

57 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

You're saying the dialogue in ROL is bad? Have you looked at the text in Shattered Crystal? None of their jokes were funny, and the characters were just having mindless chatter, instead of focusing on saving their friend, and stopping Lyric. Rise Of Lyric at least had some comical moments. ROL is a longer game, it has more to do, more to explore, more moves and abilities from each character, upgrades, more variety, more cutscenes, more boss fights, much better graphics, fun co-op, better music, and more. 

In just my opinion, neither Shattered Crystal nor Rise of Lyric had any moments that I would call genuinely funny.  The side-chatter in the cutscenes of Shattered Crystal aren't much better than the directionless subplots that Rise of Lyric starts and then stops at the drop of a hat.  The rest of your points are either strictly opinionated or not really a statement of actual quality.  A longer game doesn't make a game better, giving players more to explore doesn't mean anything if the exploration is boring (which it is in both games, but to RoL's credit, at least it's optional) more boss fights doesn't mean anything when the bosses in question are designed counter-intuitively to the game's team-based combat, etc.  The collectibles are also arguably not worth it, since none of them that I have experienced have added any noticeable difference to me.

As far as the dialogue goes, yeah, neither game is particularly funny, but at least Shattered Crystal didn't think that it had to remind me what rings and bounce pads were every single time one or the other was in my line of sight, or to remind me that I can use a ramp as a ramp.

 

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At least Rise Of Lyric had some element of challenge to it, unlike Shattered Crystal. In Rise of Lyric, you have to face robots occasionally, which gives the baddies a reason to be in the game. In Shattered Crystal, they are just standing around, and offer no purpose in the game. The game's tutorial makes it sound like you'll need to destroy the robots throughout the game, but what's the point? you can easily avoid them, and nothing rewarding comes out of defeating them. In Rise Of Lyric, you got scraps to open new areas, or fix broken machines and objects. In Shattered Crystal, the robots serve no rewards. 

The only parts I ever recall of Rise of Lyric being challenging were when the game was hard to control, namely in the vehicle section which controlled like rubbish.  Both games offer very little in the way of penalty for failing.  When you die in Rise of Lyric, you are immediately taken back to where you were with no consequences but maybe five seconds of immobility (during which your teammates pretty much handle themselves perfectly fine) Heck, it even refills your Rings for you, so that's awfully nice of them.  There's also various "puzzles" throughout the game where you have to land on illuminated tiles to activate a switch, but you aren't penalized for stepping on the wrong tiles, either.  The difficulty in Rise of Lyric is just shallow, and the rewards you get defeating robots are equally shallow to the point where getting nothing honestly feels like less of a slap to the face for me.

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Rise Of Lyric also has better replay value. Even after collecting all hidden items, Rise of Lyric can still be fun to replay, due to it's big worlds and variety. After collecting everything in Shattered Crystal, the game is absolutely boring, you no longer have an objective in the game. Each characters' abilities are mostly for finding new items, but with all the items collected, there's nothing else to explore. In Rise Of Lyric, each level has different ways to advance through the levels using 2-4 characters to switch between. I found it more fun to control the characters and explore in Rise Of Lyric, compared to just slowly running left and right across very bland looking environments. 

That's the main reason why Shattered Crystal is usually considered better, though.  It ends much quicker if you use a walkthrough to get all those mandatory collectibles.  Like Shattered Crystal, Rise of Lyric feels padded out and monotonous, and the open worlds are honestly a clusterfuck.  I have no incentive to replay Rise of Lyric, even with additional objectives.  I mean, if you're a completionist, you might find satisfaction in simply getting 100%, but I find no satisfaction of getting 100% on a game that just isn't that fun to play.

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Also, there is no excuse for Shattered Crystal to look so bad. The 3ds is much more capable than that. Just look at Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games. That game has great graphics for a 3ds game, it looks like a Wii game, which is actually impressive for the 3ds' limitations. 3ds is capable of many other great looking games, like Kid Icarus Uprising, Star Fox 64 3d, Mario Kart 8, Resident Evil Revelations, Monster Hunter 4, and more. It's sad to see all the 3ds Sonic games ended up looking so terrible and rushed. The only good looking Sonic games on 3ds, were the Mario & Sonic games, and his appearance in Super Smash Bros. for 3ds. I will admit that Shattered Crystal looked better than Lost World on 3ds, but barely. 

 

Which nobody is disagreeing with.  Shattered Crystal is an ugly-looking game, and it can be argued that even for original DS standards, the models just aren't very appealing to look at.  But I don't really consider it technically worse than the way Rise of Lyric also had extremely dated graphics, but in different ways.  

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It may not have entirely, but Rise of Lyric did have some great graphics at moments in the game. For the most part, the character models looked colorful, very detailed and well textured on their fur, clothing, and the reflections of their eyes. I honestly don't get why everyone thinks the graphics suck, they do suck in some areas, but if you look close, there actually is some great amount of detail put into it. It's more pleasant to look at than Sonic Lost World. That game had too much color, and a high lack of textures. RoL may not have had the best graphics, but it was still better than most games you could find on a PS2 or Wii. 

I concede that Rise of Lyric, in my opinion alone, had a more practical use of color theory and was easier to look at, but they still look very PS2 quality to me.  Granted, to give credit where it's due, it looks like one of the better PS2 games.  More Jak and Daxter and less generic "Super Gray and Brown RPG" that plagued a good amount of PS2 games.

Lost World's graphics are a hit-or-miss depending on your preference.  I feel the less detailed graphics work in its favor a lot more than whatever RoL was going for and much more pleasing, personally.  But then I quite like me some bright colored stuff, so that's of no surprise.

[Badnik Mechanic]

10 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

while the east focus on the epic/Hollywood sensation the franchise is known for...

No wonder it gets so much negative press if it's supposed to follow Hollywood.