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We like Sonic, I think?

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I talked to my Dad recently about the announcement of Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice and the negative reception surrounding the game and the franchise in general.

 

He says our negative attitudes come from what other people say about the game and that we don't form our own opinions. He believes we bash Sonic for the sake of bashing Sonic.

 

Is this true?

Yes and no. It's quite obvious people find enjoyment ripping the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise a new one, merely because it's the popular thing to do, and it's quite easy to do, but there are also valid criticisms to be discussed. I mean, it's arguable whether or not the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise is even a shadow of it's former self thanks to all these needless attempts at innovation.

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Everyone else has already said what I wanted to say better than I could, but I take issue with the statement that a fan must be enthusiastic about a new installment in a series, regardless of quality.  Part of being a fan of a series is appreciating its high points while having the fortitude to admit to the weaker points.  Of course, what those "weaker" points are is often subjective.  Some people like Sonic '06, and if they can provide a reasonable argument and not act like arrogant prudes about their enjoyment of it, then there's nothing wrong with that.  I very much enjoyed Sonic Lost World, but I can more than understand why it's such a divisive title.  Anyway, the point is, every series has its high points and its low points, and if you feel that your fandom disentitles you to speak your honest opinion about the quality of a product, then you're doing the series a huge disservice, because you're not celebrating what made it great in the first place.  You're not communicating the idea that you want the series to be the best it can be.  You're showing that you're content with absolutely anything that comes out, which completely stagnates the series' progress and development.

 

Also, TMNT 2014 was awful, and it doesn't take a keen eye or intense scrutiny to see why.  The characters are hideous, the writing is atrocious, and the overall plot is just so vapid.  If someone's going to tell me that I'm just unreasonably hating it because Michael Bay (as though his track record warrants respect otherwise, which it doesn't), then they're clearly not invested in artistic media enough to form an educated opinion on the matter.  If he likes it, fair enough.  Really, the 80's Ninja Turtles hasn't aged super well, either, and that's literally my favorite incarnation of the series, so it's not like I have any right to attack his opinion.  But don't dismiss people's criticisms just because you can't see it.

 

And this applies to my own stuff, too.  If there is something wrong with something I make, I hope to hear honest feedback.  Because I want to improve.  I want to see the weak points in the things that I do.  I want to have enlightened conversation about it.  A large-scale series like Sonic and TMNT are the same way.  Of course they want you to tell them if something is wrong.  Because, you know, they like money.  If people don't like something, then they're not going to get as much money as they could, so to appropriate extents, they do show concern for what fans, critics, and the general public thinks.

 

So really, blindly putting your loyalty into a brand like that is a complete disservice not just artistically, but monetarily.  You're making it harder for some hardworking writers, artists, musicians, and businessmen to do their job because they can't get an accurate reading of what people actually like.  That means they can't feel satisfied in knowing they've done their job in entertaining you and also means they can't accurately gauge where their money is at.  So yeah, I'm going to continue to not like Sonic Boom: Fire & Ice, because I do enjoy the Sonic series and want to see good things come out of it, not because I'm obligated to like it out of fear my TRU BLU SANIC NERD card will be taken from me.

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I talked to my Dad recently about the announcement of Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice and the negative reception surrounding the game and the franchise in general.

 

He says our negative attitudes come from what other people say about the game and that we don't form our own opinions. He believes we bash Sonic for the sake of bashing Sonic.

 

Is this true? I question the existence of Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice due to the financial and critical failure of 

Shattered Crystal but I don't HATE it. I'm just confused. 

 

My Dad questions our dedication to Sonic as fans. He says that fans should look forward and stay optimistic on whatever is made, not assume it's gonna be utter crap the day it is announced. We all know though, that we're used to disappointing games and this could be why we can be so pessimistic.  An example he brings up is the movie: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" from 2014. My Dad loves that movie and he says the reason the film did so poorly is because of raging fanboys "blindly" hating on the movie because Micheal Bay is involved.

 

I usually am optimistic about new Sonic games, this is coming from a guy who liked Sonic Heroes, Shadow The Hedgehog (some parts), Sonic And The Black Knight, Sonic Lost World and even Sonic 06.

 

The only games I didn't like were Sonic And The Secret Rings and Sonic The Hedgehog: Genesis.

 

So what do you think? Do you think we are providing legitimate criticism or are just riding on the "Hate Sonic" bandwagon despite being fans? I wanna know your view on this.

 

Platinum Dunes' TMNT film did poorly? I'm sorry, the film made $485 million and was immediately greenlit for a sequel, that's not doing poorly. It just happens a lot of people didn't like the film, but everyone who was willing to gave it a chance--and I'd say it seems a lot were willing.

 

I don't think ALL the reactions to Fire and Ice are unjustified. I'm pretty neutral because I don't care about Boom enough, but most concerns I've seen point to the fact that game doesn't look much different from its predecessor. It's more of the same from Shattered Crystal, and the only assurance we have is a snarky hashtag on the official tumblr. Maybe it has improved. Maybe SEGA does listen, but the announcement trailer doesn't really give that impression, right now. People can be cautious, especially when they have a direct point of reference/comparison to work from.

 

Now, the hate bandwagon is another story. Inside the fandom it's constant cynicism and negativity. Outside of it? Well...

 

annscreencap.png

This is an article on Anime News Network just published today for their X Button column. In it, there's a section about games that are "so bad, they're good" and '06 gets a brief mention, among things like the CD-i Zelda games (section basically says "well these are awful, but we can laugh at them! Thanks YouTube!"). It's a very brief thing and really has nothing to do with riffing on Sonic especially, but something about using a screenshot from '06 specifically as a headline image just comes across as taking the fact that a bad game was made featuring this character and rubbing it in our faces. It's not even the focus of the section, and yet it makes the headline image, which is even funnier when CD-i Zelda precedes the paragraph the game is even mentioned in. It just comes across as a cheap shot, and possibly even a double standard, even if it's nine years old and most fans really don't give a shit about it anymore.

 

All that said, I don't think this bandwagon mentality about hating Sonic is really something that should be used as ammo toward anybody who actually just doesn't like where the games are going or are simply just unsure about what's been on offer recently with games like Fire and Ice. Being optimistic and positive is fine, and I try to maintain that, but when SEGA's shoveling out more of the same, I don't think you can blame people for taking a step back and questioning it, especially when it doesn't look much different from the game they gave us last year.

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I've never gone into a game with new, unplayed features expecting to hate it. At the very least, that's a dumb waste of money. However, if I come out of the experience not liking it, and I'm able to determine the reasons why I didn't like it, and Sega perpetuates those reasons for every game after, why should I be expected to be excited for the new games? You yourself say you don't like Secret Rings. Well, what if Sega started making nothing but Secret Rings sequels and spiritual successors? You'd be right in the trenches with other people who don't like Secret Rings not being so happy.

 

Adding on to this you also said you liked Black Knight, and it is undeniably a vast improvement over Secret Rings. That's the other part of this whole deal, even though we seemingly hate everything the series is putting out we keep coming back. Why? Because no matter how bad the games are, no matter how many horrible business decisions SEGA makes, no matter how grim things get for the franchise, there's always a chance, no matter how slim, that things could get better.

 

Dammit SSMB, you're turning me into an optimist.  I didn't even think that was possible...

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I disagree. While a lot of professional critics and others out there deliberately attack and nitpick about particular aspects of this franchise I can assure you and your father that they and everyone else who knows this franchise inside out have every right to complain about the majority of the things they do. If your father was aware of the extent of BS that we've had to put up with he'd have a very different view on the situation.

 

@Nepenthe put it best tbh.

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While I can understand that not everyone should be optimistic about every game but things like "nothing is good about the current direction" doesn't sound very reasonable to me. I get that this direction is not what everyone wanted but there has to be atleast some sort of good in it, right?

 

Also I don't mind making complaints but can atleast be constructive instead of just straight-up bashing?

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The concern shouldn't be directed towards those who hate or bash Sonic but towards the increasing number of people who simply don't care anymore. I mean, if we're thinking macro here and not about how much each of us enjoy the games. Sonic being bashed would mean he's at least brought up, but that gets rarer each day. A forum dedicated to Sonic can be as optimistic as can be, but those outside this loose community are less and less prone to buy a Sonic game nowadays. Heck, the sales numbers speak for me, do they not?

 

It's not as if any amount of optimism we put out would counter the amount of indifference, if that's not even more abstract than "amount of optimism", from basically everyone else. I don't suppose the franchise benefits from anyone blindly following it. And, in any case, why should we? We're not charity either. Sonic isn't my father or my brother. I don't owe him money, nor do I believe in him as a superior being. I pay for a product and I get it. If I don't like it, I don't buy it anymore. Attachment to a franchise that's not even a sentient being is bad for you.

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It's understandable why there's so much negativity when it comes to Sonic. When you constantly make mediocre games( or downright broken ones) it's quite obvious why this franchise is the butt of the joke. It's really not about hate bandwagoning. I don't find them out of place but, sometimes, a bit annoying. Especially when it comes to Sonic 06. 

 

When Sega announces a Sonic Boom new game, alot people are going to have doubts because the quality of the first two games. Fire and Ice might be a good game but it's not going to do much considering it has the word " Sonic Boom" in it. People are going to associate that name with the wii u game title. 

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I dunno, "exaggeration" can still mean "false", or at least be a misinterpretation of the truth, if that makes sense. And that's not getting into stuff that's just plain ridiculous. If I had a penny for every conspiracy theory that Sonic Team is trying to kill Sonic forever because the user coming up with this theory disliked that one game or whatever, I'd...have a lot of pennies, I guess. 

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OP dude, don't worry about what your dad thinks. It's what you think about the franchise that matters to you, personally... Honestly, dads are like, sooo uncool anyway! :P (hahaha I'm kidding. My stepdad is a rocker with piercings! :D)

 

Anyways, I don't really know shit about the DS games, but I was dumb enough to sit through an entire LP of the WiiU game to see what the fuss was all about. What bothered me was the messed up potential of this series; all the interesting stuff got kicked out and was replaced with the last minute addition of things that just didn't make any sense. Then there's the boring ass gameplay that holds your hand throughout the entire game. I assume that similar shit went on in Shattered Crystal, so to see more of this lame crap is being made annoys me. Kids deserve better than this. I got freakin' Starlight Zone, Collision Chaos, Chemical Plant Zone, Doomsday... stuff like that. Jeezus I feel sorry for the new gamers this series is reaching out to. :D

 

If that's negativity, well.. sorry... :s but yeah, I really shouldn't give a shit! :D It's not marketed towards me.

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Why should I have faith when the people in charge of Sonic are literally doing everything in their power to make me unable to trust their judgment? I recognize that part of my cynicism is because I don't particularly like the direction they've taken an aspect of the games that most people probably don't care about or consider not worth investing effort into due to some perception that Sonic should never be taken seriously, but when that's compounded by the games OBJECTIVELY managing to slide back down in quality after a few years of sorta decent games, why should I give them faith when it's clear they don't care enough to make me WANT to have faith?

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No doubt about it, but at least he's not a homophobe the way Ian Flynn is. Bill Freiberger is a pompous old-fashioned hypocrite, thinking he can avoid sexist tropes when he easily falls back into them and think he can escape from the criticism.

 

Okay you were kinda making sense until you got to this part after which it was all downhill from there.

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I'm not bothered by Boom per se. I had some fun making fun of Boom last night, but generally I'm pretty indifferent to the series.

Which is kind of my problem with the franchise currently. It feels like Sonic is just flailing about. Starting in 2008, it felt like there was new hope for the series. Unleashed wasn't received really well, but people saw potential in the daytime stages. Something SEGA capitalized on with Colors and Generations, which were both received very well. Along with games like All-Stars Racing + Transformed and even Sonic 4 which were received decently to very well, for the first time in a while the series had some good will. Something SEGA has since let slip away by releasing a string of mediocre to bad games back to back. It's hard to be excited for things after that and the cynicism is understandable to me.

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I can understand why some fans are pessimistic, knowing the history of franchaise and not being so excited about new games. It just that easy in human nature to start losing faith, if you are every/most time dissapointed. Honestly, even I believe that Sega doesn't really realise what makes Sonic great by trying to reinvent the wheel(almost) all the time. And with this new Boom game, there are many reasons why people possibly don't like the idea or have high expectations. For example, if you don't like the game why would you want a sequel to it which seems to be quite similar according to trailer? Are there exaggaration, most likely is. There is a difference between true criticism/questioning and just blind hate because you don't like something (in this case Boom). Your dad has made unfair generalisation by putting the whole fanbase to the latter, which sadly isn't that uncommon itself, again human nature. If you hate the idea of new Boom game, that's absolutely fine but you need to have so back-up to that argument which comes from your own experiences and knowledge. And if you bash Sonic just for the sake of it, why do you call yourself a fan?

Anyway my opinions? I personally am pretty neutral towards games and not get hyped by them. But it's not Sonic fault, it's triple-a companies fault (while Sega is one of the most unreliable companies to me it's not the only one), I mean today you don't even know if upcoming game is even functional let alone on the level which publishers have hyped it. And if there is bad game in franchaise I love, I hate it because I love the serie and think it deserves better. And Sonic deserves better than Sega has given to him. But again, there has to be an actual reason to that hate.

When it comes to the Sonic games, I enjoy all of those I have played at least to certain extent (with the possible exception of 3D Blast). When it comes to the previous Boom games, I can't say anything because I haven't played them so I think that bashing them would be unfair, although I believe that they are bad games (of course I thought that also with Sonic 06). I dislike the idea of Boom sequel because of

1) Ratings and sales of the first ones makes making sequel to those look absolutely stupid. It's just bad PR. And Ialso question the possible succes of sequel because of the backlash it gets (and because what I have seen, it looks very similar to Shattered Crystals). I just believe that game will hit Sega financially even more. There are many games which "failed" even if they sold millions of copies but Boom games really failed because of many things (of course, console game being exclusive to WiiU automatically hits sales).

2) Own preferences. First of all, future of Sonic serie. I just don't like the fact that new spin-off franchaise is seemingly getting equal place with the main serie. As a spin-off Boom is fine (I personally like the cartoon) but in same position with main continuity, no. Of course this problem can resolve itself with time by getting used to it and thankfully Sonic team seems to focus on main series. Secondly, I just think that all the possible sequels that Sega could make, Boom is the worst one. What about SA3? Heroes 2? Or new boost game?

3) Game is once again in Nintendo console. It doesn't matter if there is a game if I can't play it anyway. As far as I'm aware, deal between Sega and Nintendo ended with RoL and SC. Hopefully the next main game (most likely in next year) comes also in other consoles. And what I know, this deal was "paid exclusive" stuff which I dislike.

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A new generation of gamers with new demands are here and SEGA/Archie/Ouido doesn't seem to catch up. Ken Penders is our Michael Bay. No doubt about it, but at least he's not a homophobe the way Ian Flynn is. Bill Freiberger is a pompous old-fashioned hypocrite, thinking he can avoid sexist tropes when he easily falls back into them and think he can escape from the criticism. Takashi Izuka himself are stuck in late 90's when it comes to marketing and feedback, thinking that the immature game of contraries is a legit business strategy and uses Aaron Weber as a shield, who has become a soulless meme generator at this point.

That is a hell of an accusation, and I hope you have something substantial to back that up, dude.

And let's keep in mind Ken Penders rationale for making a character gay was to point out that he was socially awkward, shy, and spends most of his time tinkering with gadgets, and therefore it makes sense.

Sure. That's not questionable at all.

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I actually think its good the fact that sometimes we get mad, it means that we care. In fact sometimes we care too much, that's why sometimes there is overreactions and long walls of texts criticizing Sonic Games.

 

The new trailer for the Fire and Ice Game didn't show anything new so people are upset because there is a Big chance the Publisher of your favorite franchise wants to keep releasing mediocre games just for the sake of money. 

 

Of course some people react differently some get upset, others are optimistic. But to question a product from your favorite franchise doesn't say you don't like it anymore, it says you care enough to actually put thought into it.

 

In case of Boom, as a fan, I've come to accept that part of the franchise but that doesn't mean I will defend a game that is of questionable quality. The same with this new game until I actually see something that indicates a better game I will remain cautious about it.

 

In the end we are all fans, but we are all different persons.   

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While everyone is totally right, I just love the fact that anyone that's posted here with a gold star response is like a grizzled old war vet sitting in the back corner of a bar, staring out the rainy window wide-eyed, seeing a silhouette of Sonic and muttering to themselves "you don't know what I've seen...I've seen some shit."

 

Yeah I can echo. We bash on Sonic because mediocrity is the best we've gotten, yet we're still too stubborn to dump the hedgehog because deep down, as much as anyone here will accept or refuse this: likes him still. It's as simple as that. We're passionate and want a really rad game of the childhood hero in our mind and we repeatedly get garbage. Yeah there's some better games, and some we even love personally, but on the grand scale, with it's track record and history, it seems no matter which right directions or wrong, it's a casino at Sega and they just keep pulling the slot machine and feed us whatever new combination of half baked ideas with little to no consistency pops out. (ruuuun-on sentence)

 

Fire & Ice popped up and from what it looks like, looks like we got basically the same thing as last the Boom game, so it's hard not to be distasteful. But we'll follow it anyway, bash it, download the soundtrack, watch reviews, possibly buy it day one or in a bargin bin 3 months after release, and sit on our ass on this board and make topics like "SHATTERED CRYSTAL VS FIRE & ICE: AN ANALYSIS." We're bitter, but we're still fans of some degree, and the wheel will go on and on.

 

I just don't think your dad realizes that super fans aren't always happy-go-lucky, and it's more over just passion. When it's a decade plus of games not meeting the line, it can be frustrating, ultimately leading to quick disapproval whenever we get a new game...

 

Especially when it looks like a sequel of a fucking terrible game we /just got/.

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There's blind hate, but there's also blind love. I am a Sonic fan, but if I see something I don't like come from Sonic, then I'm not just gonna be positive about it because it's Sonic. For the most part, I consider myself a pretty optimistic Sonic fan. After all these years of bad games and Sonic turning into a joke by the gaming community, I'm still on Sonic's side and looking forward to new Sonic games....games that look promising that is. I just don't give a crap about the Sonic Boom universe is all. If SEGA announced a new main series Sonic game, I'd probably get pretty excited. I know plenty of Sonic fans that would still be super cynical. I'm not a classic fan or a modern fan, I'm just a Sonic fan. There are games in the series I like, dislike, and find questionable. This is how I go about any series or product that I like. Nothing's perfect and it's important to talk about the bad too.

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Speaking as someone who held out hope that Sonic will eventually get over Boom just like it did '06, it simply baffles me how invested Sega became in it without the most basic oversight it should've needed. F&I is more symptomatic of that than RofL and SC ever were - they counted their chickens before they hatched, and now they're forced to continue going ahead with projects that have basically no chance of success because the damage to the brand was already done by the time they got to work on it. You simply don't do shit in advance of other shit based on the assumption that it cannot possibly fail. Budget does not fucking equal success.

 

Do I still have that hope? I guess I do, at some level. Am I baffled that Sega let it get to this point? Absolutely. I still can't fathom what was going through their heads when they thought they needed to reboot fucking everything when all everyone - and I do quite literally mean everyone - ever wanted was to go back to things that'd worked before. Which is doubly perplexing because they'd already hit a stable note by the time of Generations and decided to throw that out too for no discernible reason.

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I agree with everyone that stated we shouldn't over exaggerate but we shouldn't have blind faith in something either. I learned this the hard way from Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric. I kept arguing with people how the game would be great since I had been blind faith in the developers since they worked on the PlayStation Trio games. So I pre-ordered the game, picked it up on day one and that's when I got my wake up call.

Because I got too overhyped and naively believed the game would be good I ended up losing over fifty dollars for an unpolished, glitchy, and boring game. I immediately regretted my choices and made a note to myself that no matter how good something sounds, I will always wait for the finished product to be out for a while before making my decision.

Had I been more cautious and not got my hopes up then I wouldn't have a Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric game lying on my game shelf collecting dust.

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I agree with everyone that stated we shouldn't over exaggerate but we shouldn't have blind faith in something either. I learned this the hard way from Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric. I kept arguing with people how the game would be great since I had been blind faith in the developers since they worked on the PlayStation Trio games. So I pre-ordered the game, picked it up on day one and that's when I got my wake up call.

Because I got too overhyped and naively believed the game would be good I ended up losing over fifty dollars for an unpolished, glitchy, and boring game. I immediately regretted my choices and made a note to myself that no matter how good something sounds, I will always wait for the finished product to be out for a while before making my decision.

Had I been more cautious and not got my hopes up then I wouldn't have a Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric game lying on my game shelf collecting dust.

I agree. Blind faith is more dangerous than blind hate.

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