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Sonic Spitball - Part Two!


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Indigo Rush

This was a treat to watch last night.

 

Now, I have a few disagreements with him (very few), but on the whole I am on the same page as him and totally understand what kind of point he's getting across, and it's the kind of thing that we've long since realized - Sonic doesn't have a unified identity. There's certainly a general concept - fast blue hedgehog with an attitude travels across crazy worlds via loops, ramps, springs and such to defeat an affable and egg-shaped mustachioed mad scientist with the power of gold rings and friendship - but beyond that, it really changes like, every other game.

 

Kinda inspires you to make your own series reboot, actually. Hm.

 

Good stuff. Looking forward to part 3!
 

That gag with Maria's death was hilarious

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I pretty much agree with him spot on.  With so many different iterations and continuities of Sonic, you have fans of each one and the division continues.  Though I think his solution in having clarity and a clear destination in where the series is headed can only help long term but doesn't do much with the tangled web we have now.  Like a jumbled freeway junction seen from an aerial view eventually leading to a single straight road.  Though I think it would be difficult uniting all fans under a single continuity and going from there.  I'd like to see it done though.

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Iv'e never cared about consistency in video games, plus i feel if your gonna put sonic in the real world, then do it all the way! (like in sonic 2006) people seem to forget that it was gonna be a reboot, you can't argue about continuity like that!

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Iv'e never cared about consistency in video games, plus i feel if your gonna put sonic in the real world, then do it all the way! (like in sonic 2006) people seem to forget that it was gonna be a reboot, you can't argue about continuity like that!

Except, first, it didn't end up being a reboot, and second, it still looks terrible because realistic settings and people don't match Sonic.
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Except, first, it didn't end up being a reboot, and second, it still looks terrible because realistic settings and people don't match Sonic.

 

well they were trying to promote a "new" version of sonic, it actually does fit very nicely, it just doesn't fit in the way you would expect it to or to the "old" sonic. And it didn't end up being a reboot because Yuji Naka and 10 other former Sega employees quit mid devopment and because people didn't like it...for some reason.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally got around to watching this, and I really love his intelligent analysis on the matter.  However, there are two main points of contention, mostly minor, that I'd like to voice my disagreement on.  Really, disagree might not even be the right word, because I do believe that these points have some validity, but not as they were applied in the video.

 

The first point is in regards to the animal friends in the classics.  I've heard numerous times how contradictory it is to have some form of anthropomorphic animals while other animals are not anthropomorphic.  There is no contradiction to this, as divergent evolution is a thing that happens in nature all the time.  it's more than possible that some animals have a certain layer of sentience and development while others simply do not.  For example, do we expect every bug, worm, and fungus to have humanoid features?  It's perfectly reasonable to have some creatures that are just lower levels of sentience and development, just like we do in real life.  You have to remember:  An animal doesn't consider itself an animal, does it?  If a dog suddenly becomes as smart and develops similarities to humans, does it still consider itself on the same level as, for example, a cat or a mouse?  Do we consider ourselves on the same level as apes simply because we share 90+ percent of the same DNA?  Of course not.

 

So there's no inherent contradiction in the animals being as they are.  However, it does raise the possibility of contradictions.  Similar to how Goofy and Pluto can both be dogs and often exist on screen at the exact same time, leading to some rather startling implications.  Literally every show based around animals does this.  There will be sentient dog creatures one episode and pet dogs in the next, and that's something I've grown to accept.  It's a careless plothole that you would think in this day and age would be patched by now, but it hasn't been.  Sonic is no exception in this regard, but it's not the worst or most horrible offender of it either, and he says that this is just a minor point, but I just thought I'd touch on it anyway.

 

Another thing I wanted to talk about was his bit about Tails being as good as Eggman at being a mechanical genius.  I was actually discussing this with someone a week or two ago, and I feel that he's absolutely right in some ways, because I feel that recent years have seen a notable decline in Tails' characterization.  I mean, of course, everyone sort of suffers from some sort of mis-characterization, but Tails in particular bugs me, because he's sort of lost a little bit of the charm that came with previous interpretations of the character.  What has essentially bothered me for awhile about Tails, and fully brought to light in the infamous Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, was that Tails' ingenuity with machines stopped being an interesting facet of his character and started becoming the only facet of his character.  He's no longer a unique character.  He's the smart guy, and only the smart guy.

 

As far back as the classic games, I never saw Tails as a literal genius.  I saw him a child who possessed a noticeable wealth of intelligence for his age.  But I saw him, not as someone who can build machines with the same skill as Dr. Eggman, but as someone who is exceptionally skilled with planes.  Specifically planes and not space ships, alien translators, and whatever else the writers mandate he be able to build at any given point in time.  Basically, Tails is like that creepy uncle you have that works at the repair shop.  You know, the one that works on cars and is always covered in grease and hits on you even though he's your uncle?  Yeah, that's the one.  I knew you'd understand.  Anyway, he may be gifted with cars, which suggests some extended knowledge of engineering, but that doesn't mean he's going to be able to build a spaceship or do anything mechanically that doesn't involve fixing cars.  I always considered Tails the same way, but with planes instead of cars.

 

Keeping Tails as someone who is good with planes was what made his rivalry with Eggman so poignant to me.  It wasn't a battle of two equal wits; it was a battle of one (considerably younger) person competing against someone with superior intellect and with significantly more advanced machinery using extremely primitive technology.  That made it all the more satisfying when Tails' planes and stuff would come in handy.

 

I still love Tails, even in Boom, don't get me wrong.  But now he can invent everything, and there's no thematic purpose to his intelligence.  He's just the smart one, akin to Jimmy Neutron and everything.  There's no divide between him and the other characters, especially not Dr. Eggman, in terms of maturity and intelligence.  This makes his, and everyone else's, innate factors such as age completely unrelated to the narrative and gives the characters a very certain kind of hollow feeling, as though there wasn't really any thought put into them.  This is no more evident than in Rise of Lyric, where every character (but most especially Tails) feels the need to constantly and unsubtly remind you of the generic character trait they encompass.

 

I don't feel Tails' mechanical ingenuity is unfitting for the Sonic series in any regard, but when SA1 introduced the Tornado 2, then Sonic X went all animu with the X Tornado, and then Colors and onward just decided that he's just good at literally everything, then it's stops being an interesting trait, because there's no clearly defined limit or understanding of his abilities.  And that's what I just can't stand about Tails in recent incarnations.  I still love him enough to find him adorable on screen, but his whole shtick of "I'm smart, no specific kind of smart, just smart" that he's been having lately just really rubs me the wrong way.

 

As for pretty much every other point in his review, I kind of mostly agree.  Bearing in mind, I've always thought Sonic to be lighthearted and fun, and he seems to be under that same notion, so of course I'd agree.  Most of it is subjective.  I really like how he broke down the different incarnations of Sonic and how that has aided in dividing the fandom, as a lot of people, including myself, have long since had a hard time understanding how fandom division and the like have made the Sonic fandom a bit of a mess and has negatively impacted the quality of the product as a result.

 

Can't wait for part 3.

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Finally got around to watching this, and I really love his intelligent analysis on the matter.  However, there are two main points of contention, mostly minor, that I'd like to voice my disagreement on.  Really, disagree might not even be the right word, because I do believe that these points have some validity, but not as they were applied in the video.

 

The first point is in regards to the animal friends in the classics.  I've heard numerous times how contradictory it is to have some form of anthropomorphic animals while other animals are not anthropomorphic.  There is no contradiction to this, as divergent evolution is a thing that happens in nature all the time.  it's more than possible that some animals have a certain layer of sentience and development while others simply do not.  For example, do we expect every bug, worm, and fungus to have humanoid features?  It's perfectly reasonable to have some creatures that are just lower levels of sentience and development, just like we do in real life.  You have to remember:  An animal doesn't consider itself an animal, does it?  If a dog suddenly becomes as smart and develops similarities to humans, does it still consider itself on the same level as, for example, a cat or a mouse?  Do we consider ourselves on the same level as apes simply because we share 90+ percent of the same DNA?  Of course not.

 

So there's no inherent contradiction in the animals being as they are.  However, it does raise the possibility of contradictions.  Similar to how Goofy and Pluto can both be dogs and often exist on screen at the exact same time, leading to some rather startling implications.  Literally every show based around animals does this.  There will be sentient dog creatures one episode and pet dogs in the next, and that's something I've grown to accept.  It's a careless plothole that you would think in this day and age would be patched by now, but it hasn't been.  Sonic is no exception in this regard, but it's not the worst or most horrible offender of it either, and he says that this is just a minor point, but I just thought I'd touch on it anyway.

 

Another thing I wanted to talk about was his bit about Tails being as good as Eggman at being a mechanical genius.  I was actually discussing this with someone a week or two ago, and I feel that he's absolutely right in some ways, because I feel that recent years have seen a notable decline in Tails' characterization.  I mean, of course, everyone sort of suffers from some sort of mis-characterization, but Tails in particular bugs me, because he's sort of lost a little bit of the charm that came with previous interpretations of the character.  What has essentially bothered me for awhile about Tails, and fully brought to light in the infamous Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric, was that Tails' ingenuity with machines stopped being an interesting facet of his character and started becoming the only facet of his character.  He's no longer a unique character.  He's the smart guy, and only the smart guy.

 

As far back as the classic games, I never saw Tails as a literal genius.  I saw him a child who possessed a noticeable wealth of intelligence for his age.  But I saw him, not as someone who can build machines with the same skill as Dr. Eggman, but as someone who is exceptionally skilled with planes.  Specifically planes and not space ships, alien translators, and whatever else the writers mandate he be able to build at any given point in time.  Basically, Tails is like that creepy uncle you have that works at the repair shop.  You know, the one that works on cars and is always covered in grease and hits on you even though he's your uncle?  Yeah, that's the one.  I knew you'd understand.  Anyway, he may be gifted with cars, which suggests some extended knowledge of engineering, but that doesn't mean he's going to be able to build a spaceship or do anything mechanically that doesn't involve fixing cars.  I always considered Tails the same way, but with planes instead of cars.

 

Keeping Tails as someone who is good with planes was what made his rivalry with Eggman so poignant to me.  It wasn't a battle of two equal wits; it was a battle of one (considerably younger) person competing against someone with superior intellect and with significantly more advanced machinery using extremely primitive technology.  That made it all the more satisfying when Tails' planes and stuff would come in handy.

 

I still love Tails, even in Boom, don't get me wrong.  But now he can invent everything, and there's no thematic purpose to his intelligence.  He's just the smart one, akin to Jimmy Neutron and everything.  There's no divide between him and the other characters, especially not Dr. Eggman, in terms of maturity and intelligence.  This makes his, and everyone else's, innate factors such as age completely unrelated to the narrative and gives the characters a very certain kind of hollow feeling, as though there wasn't really any thought put into them.  This is no more evident than in Rise of Lyric, where every character (but most especially Tails) feels the need to constantly and unsubtly remind you of the generic character trait they encompass.

 

I don't feel Tails' mechanical ingenuity is unfitting for the Sonic series in any regard, but when SA1 introduced the Tornado 2, then Sonic X went all animu with the X Tornado, and then Colors and onward just decided that he's just good at literally everything, then it's stops being an interesting trait, because there's no clearly defined limit or understanding of his abilities.  And that's what I just can't stand about Tails in recent incarnations.  I still love him enough to find him adorable on screen, but his whole shtick of "I'm smart, no specific kind of smart, just smart" that he's been having lately just really rubs me the wrong way.

 

As for pretty much every other point in his review, I kind of mostly agree.  Bearing in mind, I've always thought Sonic to be lighthearted and fun, and he seems to be under that same notion, so of course I'd agree.  Most of it is subjective.  I really like how he broke down the different incarnations of Sonic and how that has aided in dividing the fandom, as a lot of people, including myself, have long since had a hard time understanding how fandom division and the like have made the Sonic fandom a bit of a mess and has negatively impacted the quality of the product as a result.

 

Can't wait for part 3.

I just want to point out, that Tails Adventure did have Tails building bombs, remote robots, and all sorts of stuff before he met Sonic. And Sonic Battle had him using Energy Ball Cannons and stuff, as well as having attacks named after IQs (200, 300, and 400). So, to me, Tails was always meant to be a genius of Eggman's level.

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I just want to point out, that Tails Adventure did have Tails building bombs, remote robots, and all sorts of stuff before he met Sonic. And Sonic Battle had him using Energy Ball Cannons and stuff, as well as having attacks named after IQs (200, 300, and 400). So, to me, Tails was always meant to be a genius of Eggman's level.

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shdowhunt60

Tails being a mechanical prodigy makes sense as a further extension of his personality. Tails's thing is flying, and ergo is a pilot. And as a pilot, it makes sense that he would be able to maintain his plane. Where it got ridiculous was this apparently became a license to make him some sort of twin-tailed prepubescent diety of all things technology, and he has the ability to apparently build fucking Battlestar Galactica, and be every bit of an engineering adept as people who have been working behind their respective fields all their lives (e.g. Eggman and Wave.

 

What's more, is that it got to the point also where this became the only facet of his personality. Tails is a pretty blatant and text-book example of flanderization. What was once a bright-eyed and ambitious child, became a droning and dull Techno Sue simply because the writers fixated on a certain element of his character.

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ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Dude.., Shadow should have totally been a clone... His design would make much more sense IMO. I always thought it was weird how Shadow wasn't inherently a bad guy, yet looked inherently bad. 

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I personally find Shadow being a clone of Sonic to be a very, very lazy way of explaining his similar qualities to Sonic, albeit I do agree that his obvious relation is far too uncanny to be passed off as sheer coincidence.  Other than that, I actually like the idea of Shadow, but not his execution.  I like the idea that he's someone who is not really a bad person, but driven to do bad things because of the circumstances of his life.  The problem is that he doesn't have a change of heart as a result of actual moral analysis or a series of experiences that lead him to see the consequences of his actions, but because he suddenly remembered that the friend that he idolized to what seems like almost unhealthy extents (albeit, for understandable reasons) actually told him the opposite.  That's both lazy and completely contrary to what would most logically happen.  Like, maybe Shadow's different, but if I've had 50+ years to let my anger fester and grow, chances are, I wouldn't give a toss about what my dead friend "would have wanted" when my own feelings of what I believe they deserve supercede that.

 

That's one thing Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) did do good on.  It had Shadow dismiss Maria as a relic of his past, not someone who defines him in the present or the future.

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shdowhunt60

I think the primary thing is that it would've made Sonic and Shadow's rivalry more personal, and it would've made more sense why they would be calling each other faker and stuff like that. Stuff like that though feels like hindsight 20/20, and I think doing that would've required some serious rewrites in what is a largely functional storyline, so I don't harp too much on it. But I see his point.

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ThePrinceOfSaiyans

You know, I've given it a lot of thought, and I think there might be a way to reconcile the major plot holes in Sonic Adventure 2. Going off the English cut scene in the Last Story segment, Gerald has this to say in his diary on the day of the raid:

"Was it a mistake to create the ultimate life form? I thought it was something that would benefit all of mankind, but then the military guards landed on the colony that day. They were sent to destroy the research project that I had been working on. My colleagues at the research facility, my granddaughter, Maria. I hope you are all safe." 

This would either imply that Gerald wasn't on the Ark that day or that he was the first one to be arrested. Honestly, it's not too much of a stretch to assume he was out in the field so to speak, gathering information on how to complete Shadow. Naturally he was already a work in progress, as he was jettisoned from the Ark by Maria, but it could be argued he wasn't finished. My assumption is that Gerald went into hiding, and reprogrammed the Ark to crash into Earth after it was shut down, after which he either found the pod Shadow was jettisoned in and finished him or Gerald broke into Prison Island and reprogrammed Shadow under the noses of G.U.N. Then he turned himself in, and secretly recorded and sent the video of his execution to the Ark. I'm sure I'm missing something which totally discredits this theory, but it's fun trying to reconcile plot holes. 

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The problem is that he doesn't have a change of heart as a result of actual moral analysis or a series of experiences that lead him to see the consequences of his actions, but because he suddenly remembered that the friend that he idolized to what seems like almost unhealthy extents (albeit, for understandable reasons) actually told him the opposite.  That's both lazy and completely contrary to what would most logically happen.  Like, maybe Shadow's different, but if I've had 50+ years to let my anger fester and grow, chances are, I wouldn't give a toss about what my dead friend "would have wanted" when my own feelings of what I believe they deserve supercede that.

 

Really? I think it's completely logical. I've always seen Shadow as someone who lacks self direction, which makes sense, he was created as a weapon for the military (and Black Doom), a weapon doesn't need free will, it only needs to follow it's master's orders without question. With that in mind it becomes pretty obvious why he imprinted so strongly upon Maria as his moral compass, following her ideals gave him a very clear direction in life, a purpose that he couldn't give himself. In fact it's entirely possible that Gerald (being a pacifist) had planned for Shadow and Maria to grow as close as they did, in hopes that Maria's ideology would limit his usefulness to G.U.N. and the Black Arms. Following up on that it becomes clear why Gerald decided to use Maria to influence Shadow to follow his plans; Shadow would follow Maria to the ends of the Earth, if Gerald gave orders that contradicted her wishes then it's highly likely that Shadow would disobey them, but if Maria's "wishes" went hand in hand with Gerald's plan Shadow wouldn't hesitate to go along with it.

 

Shadow's story arc after that is mostly devoted to finding his identity, and that goes beyond just learning his past. Heroes and Shadow aren't just about Shadow recovering his memories, they're also about self discovery. Who is Shadow the Hedgehog? What is his place in the world? Where do his allegiances lie? What does is his ideology? Shadow's story is about how he defines himself, learning to think on his own, and discover his own path (much like Bladewolf in Metal Gear Rising). By the end of is game Shadow seems to have a tentative grasp on what the answers to those questions are, and seeing Emerl develop free will for himself in Sonic Battle seems to have solidified his sense of self. The next time we see Shadow in '06 he's finished his journey from from being someone who is completely lost without having another person to guide him to "determining his own destiny."

 

And then he dropped off the face of the Earth.

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Really? I think it's completely logical. I've always seen Shadow as someone who lacks self direction, which makes sense, he was created as a weapon for the military (and Black Doom), a weapon doesn't need free will, it only needs to follow it's master's orders without question. With that in mind it becomes pretty obvious why he imprinted so strongly upon Maria as his moral compass, following her ideals gave him a very clear direction in life, a purpose that he couldn't give himself. In fact it's entirely possible that Gerald (being a pacifist) had planned for Shadow and Maria to grow as close as they did, in hopes that Maria's ideology would limit his usefulness to G.U.N. and the Black Arms. Following up on that it becomes clear why Gerald decided to use Maria to influence Shadow to follow his plans; Shadow would follow Maria to the ends of the Earth, if Gerald gave orders that contradicted her wishes then it's highly likely that Shadow would disobey them, but if Maria's "wishes" went hand in hand with Gerald's plan Shadow wouldn't hesitate to go along with it.

But that doesn't make for an exciting story when his memory is triggered by someone just telling him otherwise.  My problem isn't with the fact that Maria was an influencing factor, but the lack of timing, direction, and presentation.  Just because he was ultimately loyal to Maria does not mean we must be robbed of the aforementioned moral analysis or becoming aware of the consequences of his actions through actual events, rather than haphazardly corrected in two minutes towards the end.

 

Shadow's story arc after that is mostly devoted to finding his identity, and that goes beyond just learning his past. Heroes and Shadow aren't just about Shadow recovering his memories, they're also about self discovery. Who is Shadow the Hedgehog? What is his place in the world? Where do his allegiances lie? What does is his ideology? Shadow's story is about how he defines himself, learning to think on his own, and discover his own path (much like Bladewolf in Metal Gear Rising). By the end of is game Shadow seems to have a tentative grasp on what the answers to those questions are, and seeing Emerl develop free will for himself in Sonic Battle seems to have solidified his sense of self. The next time we see Shadow in '06 he's finished his journey from from being someone who is completely lost without having another person to guide him to "determining his own destiny."

 

And then he dropped off the face of the Earth.

I am aware of that, which is what I meant earlier when I said that I felt that Shadow's story arc had a lot of good things thematically, but their way of going about doing it was an absolute mess with little coherency and poor conveyance.  Just my personal opinion on it, anyway.

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ThePrinceOfSaiyans

I've got a question for you all, pertaining to ShayMay's observation regarding SEGA's decision to place Sonic's world on Earth. How much does that actually bother you? Up until recently, it's never really bothered me, but now, level design for certain levels is becoming glaringly out of place. For example, the level design in Speed Highway and City Escape just feel off because the roads and buildings are supposed to be man-made structures. I wouldn't mind this as much if we were supposed to believe Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 didn't take themselves seriously, but you're not. As far as I can tell, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are trying to emulate the real world Earth.

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If Earth can have talking hedgehogs, it can also have loop-de-loop roads. And it's not like putting a loop in a city street would make any more sense if they called the planet something else.

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Another great video again from him that nails the problems with what's wrong with the series. I finished the video awhile ago, so I don't remember exactly everything he said that I wanted to talk about here, but I remember some things. Also, granted while I agree with the vast majority of the things he said, the Sonic franchise is still close to my heart and my absolute favorite gaming franchise still because no other series I find as fun as this. 

 

I'll start with the whole world building and how much I really agree with him about it. In the West the world took place on Mobius, and in the East it was Earth. With the advancement to 3D and a way to tell a better story with actual 3D cutscenes and voice acting, we ended up having to stick to one continuity, and honestly, I feel as if SEGA probably did end up making somewhat of a mistake to a degree. I think SEGA should have stuck with the Western continuity with Sonic and friends living in a world called Mobius. I think this because of how weird yet wondrous the the levels in the Genesis games were. It's true that we always did have cities that could be seen in the background for various stages, so one could assume that human civilization existed there, but one could have also assumed that other anthropomorphic animals like Sonic live over in those places. With having the setting being on Earth, it doesn't mix well first and foremost with the Sonic levels. His showing of Windy Valley and Speed Highway just show how much they clash with what's shown within the first few minutes of Sonic Adventure world. Mobius could have been its own unique world where SEGA could expanded the history of the world and things would fall nicely in place (I won't even attempt to drift off into how the world Mobius should be like). Though, since they went with Earth and had actual humans living here, this falls into how weird it does look for talking anthropomorphic animals to be there alongside realistic looking animals. Another thing is the overall art style that the humans have went through. From anime (as he described for Sonic Adventure), to realistic (Sonic 2006), to Pixar (Sonic Unleashed). I feel that the Pixar style for the humans fit so much more than the previous two styles because if Sonic and friends will be waking and talking with humans, then at the very least have the humans look cartoony to help fit with the cartoony looking animals. The realistic route Sonic 2006 went was just too bad, and I believe SonicTeam realized it was a mistake and really reeled it back with Unleashed. 

Speaking of the art style, yeah, it's really a mess. I always been so fixated on how much the story, characterization for characters, tone, and gameplay should be consistent while I completely just ignored (or basically never noticed) how inconsistent the series has been. Granted, I always mostly do love the different varying art style that the series takes. My favorite style for 2D Sonic games is Sonic CD without a doubt, while my favorite for 3D Sonic games... I don't really have much of a solid favorite yet (I like them all and can't choose). Still, it's quite jarring going from something as detailed as Generations to something held back like Lost World. The best example is literally the cutscenes from both games that show the trees on the planet. In Generations they look like actual trees, but in Lost World they look so blocky... Like, wow. On another note, it's the actual characters and animals introduced. When you see Sonic, look at a realistic whale, and then look at Black Doom... Goodness do they just not look like they should exist in the same universe. Toss in Solaris and Elise from 2006, the Wisps from Colors, and even Dark Gaia and you get a problem where characters just don't look like they belong in the main Sonic games, or at least the main Sonic style. Though, I didn't really think that the animals from the Genesis days and Sonic himself wasn't weird... I think the little animals, the Chao, and heck, even the Wisps could coexist together. To me at the very least, they look like they fit the world and don't really stand out like a sore thumb. 

 

Eh... There are a lot of continuities, and while we all have experienced different ones (and like some of them) other than the game universe, a lot of them are quite dead with only three of them being relevant. It is some food for thought to think if the Sonic films are successful, we could be looking at another staying continuity... Extra food for thought if you think about Archie maybe making a comic book based on them. Granted, with the three continuities still relevant, they all are somewhat close in tone, but still different. The games are quite light hearted nowadays, but do try to dip in some dark things, but not too much (Judging from 2008 ~ current), the comics are much closer to the games in the way that it uses the different game lore and key gimmicks in its story, but the comic is more in the middle of being serious and light hearted (It's not completely far to one tone), and Boom is far to light hearted side (with a speck of comedy). I feel as if SEGA now know how far they want Sonic to go in term. They won't let it go too off the deep end like in Shadow. They'll allow it to either stay in the middle, or go far to light hearted, which I'm fine with. (Though, I do wish the games was more like the comics in terms of trying to actually tell us a compelling and cohesive story). 

 

I'll stop because anymore will probably have me rambling and just agreeing with every single last point he said. I'm quite interested in what part 3 will talk about... 

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  • 2 weeks later...
SenEDDtor Missile

I've got a question for you all, pertaining to ShayMay's observation regarding SEGA's decision to place Sonic's world on Earth. How much does that actually bother you? Up until recently, it's never really bothered me, but now, level design for certain levels is becoming glaringly out of place. For example, the level design in Speed Highway and City Escape just feel off because the roads and buildings are supposed to be man-made structures. I wouldn't mind this as much if we were supposed to believe Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 didn't take themselves seriously, but you're not. As far as I can tell, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are trying to emulate the real world Earth.

I personally never had a problem with this, since frankly it's easy to believe that this is an Earth with different sets of rules and physics.

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I've got a question for you all, pertaining to ShayMay's observation regarding SEGA's decision to place Sonic's world on Earth. How much does that actually bother you? Up until recently, it's never really bothered me, but now, level design for certain levels is becoming glaringly out of place. For example, the level design in Speed Highway and City Escape just feel off because the roads and buildings are supposed to be man-made structures. I wouldn't mind this as much if we were supposed to believe Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 didn't take themselves seriously, but you're not. As far as I can tell, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are trying to emulate the real world Earth.

I don't think that the Adventure games taking themselves somewhat seriously is really all that relevant to whether or not it can posses surrealistic elements like a loop in the middle of a highway. I mean the movie UP is about a septuagenarian who ties balloons to his house to make it fly and teams up with a boy scout and a talking dog to save a 13 foot tall rainbow colored bird from a centennial, egomaniac explorer, but it's also an emotional tale about learning to let go of the past. Metal Gear Solid has a cast which includes a Russian cowboy torture technician, a cyborg ninja, and psychic who reads your memory card and requires you to switch your controller to the second port to prevent him from reading your mind, and yet its a story about the horrors of war and nuclear weapons and about creating your own path in life rather than being ruled by your genes. And those things are blatantly part of the plot! At least the corkscrews in Radical Highway can be chalked up to gameplay and story segregation.

Also saying that the Adventure games were really trying hard to emulate the real Earth seems a tad disingenuous to me. After all, Adventure 1 wasn't exactly shy about the flying island sitting at the core of its plot. I'd say it's less that SA1 and SA2 were attempting to emulate a hyper realistic Earth so much as they were operating on the principle of "Like Reality Unless Noted".

Edited by Bowbowis
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I've got a question for you all, pertaining to ShayMay's observation regarding SEGA's decision to place Sonic's world on Earth. How much does that actually bother you? Up until recently, it's never really bothered me, but now, level design for certain levels is becoming glaringly out of place. For example, the level design in Speed Highway and City Escape just feel off because the roads and buildings are supposed to be man-made structures. I wouldn't mind this as much if we were supposed to believe Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 didn't take themselves seriously, but you're not. As far as I can tell, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are trying to emulate the real world Earth.

Sorry I realise this was a while ago but I just saw it...

Personally I think it was an attempt to wean the Western audiences off "Mobius", because IIRC that name was never a thing in Japanese Sonic. Although, tbh I don't know where the name came from (I assume someone saw the "moebius strips" in the manual and thought it was a catchy name to use for Sonic's world), and I don't know which version of Sonic used the name first. My first experience with the name Mobius was AoSTH, then it was used in STC, then again I heard it in SatAM.

These days, the thing that bugs me is that now it's supposedly not Earth, either! It's just "Sonic's world", which for me is hilarious because that was the name of the second/backup Sonic strips in STC... but it's kinda odd. Many fantasy stories name the place their characters live in, and that name in itself becomes a major thing. Say the name Middle Earth and everyone knows which fantasy franchise you're talking about!

Having said that, it's really not such a big deal that it dampens my enjoyment of the games but in Sonic Unleashed it so obviously is Earth, with different names for  the countries/continents. And yes, there's the loops and winding roads... ffs I would not want to be a driver in Empire City! :D

Edited by MamboCat
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I don't think SA1/SA2 captured a hyper-realistic Earth in terms of level design and setting, as much as the realistic models and textures kind of made it seem a little to close to reality for some people.  I think this worked in SA1's favor because the color scheme was generally more vibrant and emphasized scenic, beautiful backgrounds (which is also why it works out in Unleashed) while SA2, Shadow, and '06 had an emphasis on things that looked like you might have expected them to look like in a game from 2001 attempting to be semi-realistic.  To me, Sonic needs to be bright and colorful (visually) otherwise there's something about it with this nagging feeling of inconsistency.

That doesn't mean you can't have relatable settings; it just means that your choice of colors and choice of locations need to be a lot more thoughtful.

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Although, tbh I don't know where the name came from (I assume someone saw the "moebius strips" in the manual and thought it was a catchy name to use for Sonic's world)

I actually looked this one up a while ago but don't remember where I found the source (someone else probably does tho) apparently Yuji Naka got an interview during development of Sonic 2 and SOMEHOW the phrase "The corkscrews in Emerald Hill were inspired by Mobius Strips" was mistranslated to "The world that Sonic lives in is called Mobius" (these weren't the EXACT quotes, but I think you get the idea)

As for my opinion regarding realisic locations, I grew up with Sonic 3 and was out of the sonic loop until Sonic X...so yeah I was pretty upset at first! Though I really dig the Sonic 2006 look, its very final fantasy like which I think really blends well with sonic! Unleashed on the otherhand...doesn't look bad put defenitly out of place! I get too much mario kart vibes from it! (tho that is at the very least a good resemblence to how the gameplay works with its...car physics ugh!) It's still a good game don't get me wrong, I just feel they should have tried a 2006 sequel instead cause I feel Unleashed was a step in the wrong direction cause it doesn't feel like how a sonic game should play...idk for sure you get what I mean! :P

 

Really? I think it's completely logical. I've always seen Shadow as someone who lacks self direction, which makes sense, he was created as a weapon for the military (and Black Doom), a weapon doesn't need free will, it only needs to follow it's master's orders without question. With that in mind it becomes pretty obvious why he imprinted so strongly upon Maria as his moral compass, following her ideals gave him a very clear direction in life, a purpose that he couldn't give himself. In fact it's entirely possible that Gerald (being a pacifist) had planned for Shadow and Maria to grow as close as they did, in hopes that Maria's ideology would limit his usefulness to G.U.N. and the Black Arms. Following up on that it becomes clear why Gerald decided to use Maria to influence Shadow to follow his plans; Shadow would follow Maria to the ends of the Earth, if Gerald gave orders that contradicted her wishes then it's highly likely that Shadow would disobey them, but if Maria's "wishes" went hand in hand with Gerald's plan Shadow wouldn't hesitate to go along with it.

 

Shadow's story arc after that is mostly devoted to finding his identity, and that goes beyond just learning his past. Heroes and Shadow aren't just about Shadow recovering his memories, they're also about self discovery. Who is Shadow the Hedgehog? What is his place in the world? Where do his allegiances lie? What does is his ideology? Shadow's story is about how he defines himself, learning to think on his own, and discover his own path (much like Bladewolf in Metal Gear Rising). By the end of is game Shadow seems to have a tentative grasp on what the answers to those questions are, and seeing Emerl develop free will for himself in Sonic Battle seems to have solidified his sense of self. The next time we see Shadow in '06 he's finished his journey from from being someone who is completely lost without having another person to guide him to "determining his own destiny."

 

And then he dropped off the face of the Earth.

it wasn't until I played sonic battle that I realized that Shadow isn't supposed to have feelings. but in all seriousness how is that appealing? doesn't that tecnacly make him a robot? there is a reason why I had to watch gammas death scene 3 TIMES in order to figure out why it was sad! I get what your saying, I just perfer to think of shadow as a wierdo who actually has feelings and just ignore all that battle stuff...for now anyways IDK!

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