Sonic Spitball - Part Two!

[Tracker_TD]

That was sodding brilliant. Seriously, he nailed it. Wonderful presentation too. 

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

All I can say is, I'd love to play that game!

[Indigo Rush]

mmnf ~<3

After sitting through and watching the whole video (I'll need to go through it again to reform my thoughts and opinions further), I have to say that I absolutely love Shay's concepts as well as his overall observations. However, I agree with about 90% of his execution and ideas - that is to say I'd take this over any other official SEGA licensed product or 3D fangame in a heartbeat, but I felt like some of his ideas got a little weaker as he went on (particularly the shield abilities). Granted, he wasn't really doing this to see it made, just to prove a point - a point well proven in fact; focus in developing the concepts for Classic Sonic in 3D is what's needed, not spitballing random ideas that seem like they'd work, or opting not to refine what's put in place and instead scrapping everything and moving on to the next product. 

I find that his approach is similar to Sonic 3 & Knuckles meets Sonic Advance 2, but then Lost World sneezes in their direction and their DNA combines with Sonic Adventure to create something that's actually really fantastic - but limits itself to Sonic alone (which, granted, we absolutely need to nail down first before dragging Tails and Knuckles into this, so fair do's), and the mechanics and control scheme reflect that limitation. It's not a bad one, mind you, but it's designed around Sonic alone, and that's fine for a lot of people, but for myself, it limits how other characters could take part. I'll expound on this later, I suppose - right now, I'm going to re-watch the video and hopefully pick up some details I may have missed - and also because it's just bloody entertaining and fun to imagine. It's certainly inspiring me more and more to put into public the idea that I've had in mind - but with Shay's basic ground-work in mind. And let me say, the level design concepts are absolutely top-notch. This is the first concept (without a working demo) I've seen that feels like it could truly work - his setpieces and examples really give me thirst to see something like it realized - and as much as I hate to say it, it may be time to rewrite the tradition of Sonic being unable to swim, because Sonic spinning through the ocean like a dolphin is too awesome/funny not to imagine (and more imaginative than jumping infinitely underwater)

Also, kudos for Rusty Ruin (Saturn)'s recognition. The level's tone, look and music are far overlooked. Double kudos for the Saturn version's Special Stage as well, and for being the first to show on YouTube how you can actually roll in them, and then spin around in the tube smoothly and without stuttering. They freakin' accomplished this on the SEGA Saturn and not on the SEGA Dreamcast, the heck?! Anyway, brilliant video. I hope this can somehow be picked up by SEGA some day. (have faith)

[TCB]

Shay May's 3D Sonic control scheme sounds like something that would take a bit of good effort to work with but prove beneficial once you got it down. Interesting use of Homing Attack in conjunction with maintaining speed and parkour too is also interesting. It may sound simplistic on paper, but the imputs behind them seem to got a lot thought behind them. I do agree the more went on with the concepts the weaker he started to sound in bridging them together, but I understand why. 

On the part of level to boss progression I really did agree with, as it reminded me heavily of how Crash Twinsanity proceeded to do with its level structure somewhat. It made Crash's world in that game really connected together on a basic level. With the voice actor part I dunno; while I can see where he is coming with it in this day and age I don't see it happening. I know this isn't an end-all-be-all of what should be in a 3D Sonic game with elements and fundamentals of the classic transferred over but for a game of what I feel could be on the scale of Unleashed not having voice acting in little parts here and there wouldn't translate as well I think it would for someone like Sonic. Besides no voice acting would mean no Eggman lines and that makes me a sad camper

I just like his down to earth tone across all three parts; it makes settling into what his ideas are much more bearable and easier to come to grasp with. On the flip side just hearing his thoughts with diagrams and such isn't just enough for me. Especially after how much I liked to hear about how the mechanics (a mix of 3&K and Adv 2) can work. To see it in motion would make me understand it more but hey what can you do. Nonetheless these videos stresses an internal unifying focus from a base and move on from there. Plus the part about the 25th poster made me realize just how muddy this branding is. Like Shay said, it doesn't feel like they're celebrating one main thing, but different faucets of things that could be alienating to some people.

[Diogenes]

Dear Sonic Team: Please steal this man's ideas.

Honestly, while there were a few points I'd argue over (I still don't think the instashield is of much use in 3D, the implementation of the elemental shields was kind of weak, and I still don't have any interest in Advance 2's boost mode, for example), that was about 90% stuff I've wanted for years and 9% additions or improvements that I wouldn't have thought of myself. It's the most thorough, most coherent, and ultimately best Sonic game idea I have heard in...basically forever.

It's a shame it will never happen.

[TCB]

I know his ideas are pretty much what some of us here would like to see and all, but I just really want to appreciate how easy going he sounds making his points. He's not obnoxious or in your face about it and knows that these are just concepts of what could be and not what it should be at the base. 

[FriendBot]

I won't deny that's a pretty solid proposal, it's definitely much more solid than that other Sonic redesign by that one guy a couple years ago.

I mean in terms of recreating the design of the Classic games, it's definitely a really good one. The moves that accommodates the level design, little to no automation at all and still keeping a nice edge to its simple and understandable story without going too far or the opposite. I mean, everyone else pretty much sums it up better I could ever do (and I'm grateful of that because I honestly couldn't go super in-depth to it since I'm too lazy). I mean, I can't really disagree with any of it since it all seems to hit the right notes in terms of its gameplay and while I would prefer a Sonic game that's more in-line with most modern games that are story-heavy and have a bigger focus on action and spectacle, that is in no means to discredit anything what Shay had said.

But what kinda irks me a bit, is his final words  saying that there should only be one Sonic instead of 3. I mean I guess, that kinda makes sense since why does SEGA have to segment their main franchise into 3 different subfranchises (one they don't even make games for and only for merchandise) but I kinda feel that you can still make it work if all the 3 Sonics and their respective series follow their rules and design while keeping that personality that remains prominent in the overall series. I mean, the main series kinda went through 2 and a half soft reboots after the Adventure series with Unleashed and then Colors onwards (06 kinda counts but I feel you can connect Shadow with 06 in some ways), So to do a complete wipe on everything Sonic and just focus on 1 Sonic, it seems kind of unfair to those who enjoy the other iterations of Sonic. I mean, while I do love the games, I also enjoy reading the Archie comics and the Boom cartoon. To suddenly have those get dropped for SEGA to put a proper focus on Sonic kinda upsets me, I just feel that there could be a more realistic way to do it than just cancel everything and do this one direction and sticking to it. Though it is just Shay's feelings and he didn't made very clear on what he said when he said that so maybe I'm just getting worked up over nothing but I feel it's important to still note that.

[Your Vest Friend]

The level design looks really unengaging to be honest. I mean, 90% of is just flat levels over and over again. I know he was translating the 2D level design ethic to the X and Z axis, but not really using the Y axis just makes it all look pancake-y and unvaried in approach. I know not every series needs this (the first three Crash games were basically corridors the series), but Sonic isn't a series I'd want that to happen in because then you'd be missing out quite a bit of what actually was in the classics.  

Plus I'm not convinced that it wouldn't be disorientating to play through that if you did go in with an exploration mindset. 

[Mauro Fonseca]

Watching through it, the control scheme he's explaining seems really great for movement, but not really for combat. His description of how easily you could aim the spindash into the Motobug really doesn't seem convincing to me- I'm predicting this control scheme being more free fun movement through the levels, but having to stop to complete 0 velocity to try and attack the enemies as otherwise you'll be missing and overshooting everything. Even considering his implementation of Homing Attack.

[SonicWind]

I have to say, having just watched through the entire series, Shay brings up some very good points. And of course, I really like his idea for a 3D Sonic game that's more inspired by the classics' blending of speed, platforming, and exploration. He certainly brings a lot of cool new ideas to the table. I might do things a little differently, however. For example, I'd keep voice acting; I honestly don't mind having the stuff in the games, and it's kind of too far ahead to just go back on it. The real problem is doing it well and getting good writers that will please fans.

While I agree with Shay that Sonic's brand identity should be restrengthened, however, I don't see any reason for the franchise not to continue in its non-mainstream, currently running forms; in fact, SEGA could make the main continuity a bit stronger while allowing the others to coexist with it, like they're doing now. I mean, no matter what form-- Classic, Modern, Boom, Archie, whatever-- I still think of it as being under one big Sonic brand umbrella with the rest. Besides, they each have their own fans that are drawn to them for different things. I mean, yes, the fanbase is incredibly fractured as a result, but one thing remains constant-- a love of at least one form of Sonic the Hedgehog.

Let's be honest here-- it's still the same speedy blue hedgehog. The same friends who are a part of his life (those that aren't exclusive to one continuity, anyway). The same beautiful, fantastic worlds. The same evil scientist that needs a good scrambling. I can live with multiple versions running around; I know which one is most important to the brand as a whole (that would be the main games, Classic and Modern included-- the games that got a good chunk of fans into the entire franchise). It's not like Sonic is the first franchise to have wildly different continuities.

I realize this may not have been what Shay was attempting to communicate when he stated SEGA should reestablish and stick to one identity for Sonic in particular (sounds a bit like it, though), but I'm just saying.

I know Sonic can be relevant again. In all his forms.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Overall, I liked the series, even if I'm not sold entirely on his conclusions at all. I'd need to see proof-of-concept, actual proof-of-concept, a fangame or something with one level, to prove to me it wouldn't result in a well-intentioned claustrophobic clutter with camera issues or a game with levels so wide they're boring. It's still a good thought exercise overall, and I do agree with the final thoughts on consolidating the brand- that'd be one of the smartest things to do right now, rather than splitting it apart like they are.

[azoo]

I found his concept of level progression brilliant and his general ideas for gameplay absolutely fantastic. Good stuff all around.

However, I found a lot of his button mapping and need to redesign some moves altogether (such as the homing attack) completely unnecessary, feeling like an (albeit well-intentioned) attempt to make Sonic's controls simpler, when in reality all they do is remove the clarity of what the game's basics are.

(Note: I'm not saying my ideas are better than his, neither am I stating that this makes a definitively better Sonic game. Like him, I'm just flowing off of what I think would make a better game to translate Sonic into 3D, so uhh... hear me out.)

Soooo, let's begin on that.

BUTTON PLACEMENT

To begin, putting nearly every action on a bumper/trigger while leaving all face buttons to the jump feels kind of pointless. Sure, I can see it as his answer to adapt the classic games' "jump only on every face button" idea, but it isn't really removing all you need to do as much as pushing it somewhere else; in fact to buttons that are way out of the way and don't emphasize the importance of one of the most major moves in the game (rolling).

Thinking with "left finger, left thumb, right finger, right thumb" is smart, but once again, misguided. Barely anyone accidentally stumbles into a different function on B, X or Y when their intention was to press A; and neither does anyone ever really use the left trigger/bumper on a controller (which is why most games assign to it much smaller things, like camera centering or simply the same thing the other bumper/trigger does). For that reason, I feel like the button placement needs a major reassessment.

ROLLIN' AND (SPIN) DASHIN'

And while rolling/Spindashing certainly would feel comfortable on a trigger, I can't help but say it doesn't put enough focus on it like sharing at least one of the face buttons would. I think it (the hold charge Spindash and roll move) needs a spot on there somewhere, while I imagine a manual crouch/roll would be more appropriate for a trigger.

On a related note, he mentioned removing uncurling would make the roll less abusable, but in my opinion removing it only makes exiting it infinitely more tedious than it should be. The only plus you get from uncurling is regained control, but that's at the expense of losing the exaggerated acceleration and invulnerability to enemies, so why is that function removed other than to mimic the 2D games?

And speaking of that..

HOMING ATTACK / INSTA SHIELD BOOGALOO

I feel like trying to hold onto concepts that suit a 2D plane much better (the Insta-shield) and trying to place the Homing Attack on an odd button combination (hold LB+ tap RB??? what??) just needlessly muddles up something that'd be perfectly fine, otherwise.

Sure, the Insta-shield is more rewarding than the Homing Attack in it's current form, and could be really good fun when mastered in a 3D title. But it feels like that instead of fine tuning the Homing Attack's pace breaking issues while tackling what makes it so OP, we're trying to take the problem and (once again) push it somewhere else. Which doesn't even address how broken making it usable on the ground is, since that combined with the immense momentum you build and/or retain from it gives the move such little drawbacks that it makes just jumping or rolling into something sort of redundant. And you could argue that it requires you to be at running speed first, but to get to that speed takes little to no time to do.

I would rather keep the Homing Attack as the secondary jump move, with some tweaking that allows it to retain some forward/vertical movement depending on how much you had before you homed into the enemy (no speed / little height = straight up small bounce, a lot of speed = a lot of forward movement, a lot of height = bigger rebound). 

This would result in an ability that feels like a middle ground between the classic bounce and the standard Homing Attack. Oh yeah, plus his comments on how it should have shorter and smaller range. Oh yeah, and a reticle. Yeah. Simple and effective, and cleans up a lot of that aforementioned muddle.

AND FINALLY, SPECIAL FUNCTION THINGS

I feel like his control layout is missing a focus on doing extra things, such as pushing/pulling objects, picking up / dropping items, talking to people, or doing super context-sensitive things (like the Light Dash). While his gameplay layout doesn't require this and this at most is a nitpick, I'd personally make room for a button like this so that there can be times in the game to take advantage of this.

"Azoo, that's a lot of nagging. Are you sure you agree with him on a lot of things?"

Good question. lol

And yeah, to reaffirm, I really do. REALLY. I love how his ideas for the gameplay are to emphasize fluidity, to revive the classic mechanics of rolling down slopes to increase speed and to retain inertia off ramps and inclines, and to make levels that incorporate these elements in a way that emphasizes exploration and rewards skillful flow and platforming with extreme speed. If there's anything I can disagree with there, it'd be on how the levels kind of need a sense of linearity to let the player know where they're going, but he's on point otherwise.

I also love the idea of wall running and his way of implementing it into the game's controls, even if I believe it should be on bumpers instead of the left trigger (hug the side of the controller = hug the side of a wall. Makes sense, no?).

I fully agree with him in that Sonic should jump the nostalgia hurdle and have a aquadynamic swimming ability much like Majora's Mask 3D + the Drill Wisp. And I also of course agree that the Sonic Advance 2 'boost mode' returning is a smart decision that could make for some seriously good speedrunning if taken proper advantage of. Oh yeah, and A+ on the "keep rankings in Time/Score Attack" suggestion.

Lastly I think he's got the right idea on how to make a simple Sonic plot. Even when he makes something that sticks to something as barebones as his plot and conventions, he manages to make it extremely interesting, exciting, and immersive in a way that makes you want to play more. It's an incredible deconstruction and explanation on how the classic games reeled players in, and I feel like that any Sonic game should at least manage to pull off the basics of a story like he suggested. After all, his is just a template for anything bigger than that, so I'd love to see a plot that is handled as strongly as that with bigger aspirations than the straight basics!

Anyways..

TL;DR I loved it and agree with every general philosophy applied in part 3 (and this Spitball series of videos in general). Even if I find myself disagreeing at times and have my personal opinion on how a good few things could be better, this guy's mind is in the right place and I can't help but agree with him on the grand majority of things, even if I find some of his solutions slightly misplaced.

10/10, best video dissection series Sonic has ever had. Would watch again.

 

[TCB]

It would help more if we actually had proof of these concepts he illustrated, because after rewatching that section with your guys thoughts on it I can see where you're coming from. Starting to sound like it's being a bit too simplistic for the sake of streamlining 2d mechanics on the 3D plane with the button layouts. That may be just me second guessing on it now.

[Diogenes]

10 hours ago, Azoo said:

To begin, putting nearly every action on a bumper/trigger while leaving all face buttons to the jump feels kind of pointless. Sure, I can see it as his answer to adapt the classic games' "jump only on every face button" idea, but it isn't really removing all you need to do as much as pushing it somewhere else; in fact to buttons that are way out of the way and don't emphasize the importance of one of the most major moves in the game (rolling).

I can't say I understand the idea of the triggers being "less important". If you make an FPS where the right trigger fires your gun, does that downplay how important shooting is to the game? I feel like dedicating a finger to one specific action says more about how important it is than where on the controller it ends up.

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Thinking with "left finger, left thumb, right finger, right thumb" is smart, but once again, misguided. Barely anyone accidentally stumbles into a different function on B, X or Y when their intention was to press A

I feel the benefit is less about avoiding pressing the wrong button and more about always having your fingers in the right place. When you need to take an action, there's no delay but raw reaction time; your finger's always (barring camera movement) going to already be on a jump button. And it's doubly true when you need to perform multiple actions right after each other; there's no need to slide your thumb around the face buttons to do an ideal spindash-jump if the two actions are controlled by separate fingers.

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and neither does anyone ever really use the left trigger/bumper on a controller (which is why most games assign to it much smaller things, like camera centering or simply the same thing the other bumper/trigger does).

Do they not? That just seems like reason to train them to use it more. I can say that pressing ZL to Squid in Splatoon has never felt unnatural to me, at least.

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...and trying to place the Homing Attack on an odd button combination (hold LB+ tap RB??? what??)

No doubt that this would require rewiring some muscle memory for us long-time fans, but I don't think that's an unreasonable input in its own context. Hold a button used for fancier actions as a modifier, then press the "curl into a ball" button for a special curled-into-a-ball attack. And I think separating the homing attack from the jump button can help when adding other characters; Tails and Knuckles can keep their jump+jump movement abilities where we're used to them being, and use the same input as Sonic for whatever kind of homing attack they have (whether it's like Sonic's or not).

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I feel like his control layout is missing a focus on doing extra things, such as pushing/pulling objects, picking up / dropping items, talking to people, or doing super context-sensitive things (like the Light Dash). While his gameplay layout doesn't require this and this at most is a nitpick, I'd personally make room for a button like this so that there can be times in the game to take advantage of this.

Well hey, that's what all those redundant face buttons can be used for: minor/rare/context-sensitive actions. If you need some minor action beyond what Shay's controls have built in, there's plenty of places on the controller to put it.

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I also love the idea of wall running and his way of implementing it into the game's controls, even if I believe it should be on bumpers instead of the left trigger (hug the side of the controller = hug the side of a wall. Makes sense, no?).

Eeeeh...on every controller I've used that's had them, my fingers have been most comfortable on the triggers or back pair of shoulder buttons than on the bumpers/front pair. I'm not really following this "hugging the sides" logic enough to prefer it over what feels most comfortable to me.

[azoo]

I'd argue that while FPSes make primary use of triggers (since they're made to feel like you're shooting and reloading), action adventure and platformer games have almost always primarily used face buttons for primary controls, while trigger functions were often secondary.

It should also be noted that in most 3D platformer games like Mario, crouching and sliding are kept to triggers while an attack is kept on the face button. Which works fine for Mario and most of anyone else, but here's the catch with Sonic: the crouch is the attack. 

If the roll and Spin Dash is going to be on the trigger, then I think an attack (like a somersault kick or something) will be necessary on one of the face buttons to give the player more to use there than jumping. That however would take some focus off of rolling as the main ground attack, while just makin where the roll is both on a face button and a trigger would be borderline overkill.

Also, if the homing attack is on a separate button, I still stand by it not being done through some silly button combo, nor that it should be doable from the ground. It feels best as a jump assist instead of some semi automatic blamblamblam attack. 

[Diogenes]

49 minutes ago, Azoo said:

I'd argue that while FPSes make primary use of triggers (since they're made to feel like you're shooting and reloading), action adventure and platformer games have almost always primarily used face buttons for primary controls, while trigger functions were often secondary.

Well ok, but why should that be treated as a rule?

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If the roll and Spin Dash is going to be on the trigger, then I think an attack (like a somersault kick or something) will be necessary on one of the face buttons to give the player more to use there than jumping. That however would take some focus off of rolling as the main ground attack, while just makin where the roll is both on a face button and a trigger would be borderline overkill.

I still don't see the logic of "needing" another face button action. It feels like it's coming at the subject from the wrong direction, as if the goal is to make enough moves to fill the controller, rather than to make the best arrangement of the moves the game needs.

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Also, if the homing attack is on a separate button, I still stand by it not being done through some silly button combo, nor that it should be doable from the ground. It feels best as a jump assist instead of some semi automatic blamblamblam attack. 

I'm not sure how that avoids it being a "semi automatic blamblamblam attack".

[azoo]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Well ok, but why should that be treated as a rule?

Because it's easy and conventional for anyone to grasp. Buttons are in the front for a reason, after all.

Besides, you don't see Mario jump-sliding and fireball shooting, Crash twirling, Rayman boomerang-punching or Megaman shooting his lemon gun with a trigger just because they can. You could argue once again that Sonic's moves also work as a crouch/slide alternative so it fits on a trigger, but that just loops back into my previous point.

Main attacks and abilities are kept on the face buttons in most platformers for a good reason: there's no confusion to what you're supposed to be spending the game doing.

I mean, you could always go "whatever, so what" to that, but why spread all these moves across the hind buttons and then just leave all the front ones as "jump"? It technically simplifies it (in the case that all face buttons jump), but the reasoning is bordering on nonsensical whenever the 3D games require more than that now.

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I still don't see the logic of "needing" another face button action. It feels like it's coming at the subject from the wrong direction, as if the goal is to make enough moves to fill the controller, rather than to make the best arrangement of the moves the game needs.

Because it's as if we're dodging buttons put there for a reason to instead use either buttons that are way out of the way, or button combos that do nothing but complicate what should be a simple task. Why do that in a game with arcadey philosophies?

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I'm not sure how that avoids it being a "semi automatic blamblamblam attack".

I tried to solve the issues of the homing attack's pace breaking and OPness by limiting what it can do somewhat, keeping it in the air and adapting some of its movement to feel like hitting enemies more like in the classic games.

Granted I don't think it's the perfect, but I do think it's better than the other option, which decides to make it potentially even more abusable than before (usable without a jump and holds all speed), but 'limited' through rather unclear means (what LB has to do with it) and an unconventional, not-very-simplistic method (having to hold buttons together like a combo just for a simple move, and then some for more than that).

Its a "one step forward, three steps back" kind of reinvention of it, and it's probably the only thing I disagree that heavily with in his 3D Sonic idea.

[shdowhunt60]

I think the more proper response was what Sonic Adventure 2 did and was introduce enemies that couldn't be homing attacked easily. In fact, I think Adventure 2 still handles the homing attack the best as a general multipurpose tool. My only objection is that 3D Sonic has been too rigidly designed around using the homing attack, which excludes characters that DON'T use the homing attack from fitting characters not designed to use it. But that criticism also applies to the boost.

The thing I like about Shaymay's game design though is that it's incredibly flexible and lends itself to a ton of future expandibility, which is something that 3D Sonic's been lacking since the move to the boost gameplay. I can see some improvements being brought through future titles, not to mention additional content like playable characters.

I know a lot of people praised the boost gameplay, and I like it too, but did anyone really think that it could really be something that's maintained? I argue that if Colors and Generations proved anything it's that there really wasn't anywhere to go from there. The wisps had nothing to do with the boost gameplay itself, and Generations mostly refined on little details.

That said, I think that in many ways he went TOO basic with the back to the basics approach with the story. Criticize Sonic Adventure as much as you like, but I thought that the more complex stories with spoken dialogue were a natural evolution: the Sonic series was veering toward that direction successively with each release. Not to mention that Sonic's chief marketability comes from the fact that unlike Mario, he can actually BE a character.

 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Because it's easy and conventional for anyone to grasp. Buttons are in the front for a reason, after all.

"Pull trigger to do thing" is pretty easy to grasp too, and the fact that basically every controller and handheld at this point has shoulder buttons seems to imply that they aren't unreasonable to use. It's not like trigger buttons are some wild new invention; there were joysticks with trigger buttons in gaming's stone age.

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Besides, you don't see Mario jump-sliding, Crash twirling, Rahman punching or Megaman shooting his lemon gun with a trigger just because they can.

But would it be any harm if they did? Or do they just stick with the face buttons out of habit? Hell I'd appreciate a Megaman game that let me fire with a trigger; it'd be easier to carry a charge shot while jumping, instead of requiring my thumb to hold one button while tapping another.

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I mean, you could always go "whatever, so what" to that, but why spread all these moves across the hind buttons and then just leave all the front ones as "jump"? It technically simplifies it, but the reasoning is bordering on nonsensical.

What's nonsensical about splitting the load of the controls between your four most capable fingers, which modern controllers are designed to make use of? Why risk fumbling your fingers across the buttons when you don't have to? It's like hunt-and-peck typing vs actually knowing how to type.

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Because it's as if we're dodging buttons put there for a reason to instead use either buttons that are way out of the way, or button combos that do nothing but complicate what should be a simple task. Why do that in a game with arcadey philosophies?

Buttons that your index fingers naturally rest on are not "out of the way". They are less out of the way than the button a half inch from where my thumb currently is. And holding one button and pressing another is not some alienly complex combo; you do it without even thinking in any 2D Mario to do a running jump, and again even that's made harder than it needs to be by being all face buttons compared to the very comfortable running controls of something like Rayman Origins/Legends.

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I tried to solve the issues of the homing attack's pace breaking and OPness by limiting what it can do somewhat, keeping it in the air and adapting some of its movement to feel like hitting enemies in the classic games.

The other decides to make it potentially even more abusable than before, but 'limited' through rather unclear means and an unconventional, not very simplistic method. Its a one step forward, three steps back kind of reinvention of it, and it's probably the only thing I disagree that heavily with in his 3D Sonic idea.

Shay's homing attack solves the pace breaking just fine; it's the same basic "keep your speed, change your direction" outcome that's been passed around for ages at this point. Likewise this nerfs it a bit by requiring you to think a bit about where you're going to end up going after hitting something with it.

And having to jump first isn't much of a limiting factor anyway, you can jump at practically any time, it's just adding one small step to the process and maybe changing how you bounce a bit.

I will admit I'm not entirely sold on the speed requirement of it, though.

[TCB]

I just wanna say that the concept of building up enough speed to perform the Homing Attack (with it's own drawbacks and advantages) sounds plausible on paper and, given the right circumstances, can be much more viable and tool in Sonic's learnset to learn

With that said (and correct me if I'm wrong) but wouldn't it be more proficient if you can just use a trigger button once you reach the speed necessary to use it? Rather than having to hold down the left trigger to enter into ball state, possibly jump and then press the right trigger to activate it?

[azoo]

Dio, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. You're supportive of a layout that spreads all across the controller and makes very little usage of the face buttons, while I view face buttons in most games (shooters being the rare exceptions) as the primary buttons while the shoulder / hind buttons carry secondary actions.

Both can work to some extent, but I feel like something as simple and arcadey as Sonic doesn't suit ShayMay's layout too well. You don't seem to agree at all, and that's just where we are gonna have to cut it off.

Though I'm gonna be honest, I still have no idea where you're coming from with the "face button problems" thing. So many games make use of them and very rarely are they ever confusing to anyone, so I don't see how putting one command on four buttons even solves anything. But I digress.

6 minutes ago, TCB said:

With that said (and correct me if I'm wrong) but wouldn't it be more proficient if you can just use a trigger button once you reach the speed necessary to use it? Rather than having to hold down the left trigger to enter into ball state, possibly jump and then press the right trigger to activate it?

I'd still find the rest a little ridiculous, but it'd at least make a lot more sense that way.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, TCB said:

With that said (and correct me if I'm wrong) but wouldn't it be more proficient if you can just use a trigger button once you reach the speed necessary to use it? Rather than having to hold down the left trigger to enter into ball state, possibly jump and then press the right trigger to activate it?

You do have the controls slightly mixed up; Shay's homing attack is "hold parkour button, tap crouch/roll button". And I think the issue is, you wouldn't want a button dedicated solely to a move you can only use while going fast and have it be useless otherwise, but you also wouldn't want it to share a button with another move and then not have it be clear which one you want to use when you press it (like SA2's light dash vs bounce attack issue). So since the parkour button doesn't cause a direct effect when pressed, it's used as a modifier to determine what the crouch/roll button does.

[TCB]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You do have the controls slightly mixed up; Shay's homing attack is "hold parkour button, tap crouch/roll button". And I think the issue is, you wouldn't want a button dedicated solely to a move you can only use while going fast and have it be useless otherwise, but you also wouldn't want it to share a button with another move and then not have it be clear which one you want to use when you press it (like SA2's light dash vs bounce attack issue). So since the parkour button doesn't cause a direct effect when pressed, it's used as a modifier to determine what the crouch/roll button does.

I knew I had the controls screwed up lol. Yeah when you put it that way the HA does feel even more limited if it's exclusive to only when you're at a certain speed with that kind of input scheme

[Diogenes]

21 minutes ago, Azoo said:

Though I'm gonna be honest, I still have no idea where you're coming from with the "face button problems" thing. So many games make use of them and very rarely are they ever confusing to anyone, so I don't see how putting one command on four buttons even solves anything. But I digress.

It's not a game-ruining issue, sure; plenty of games have been successful while asking you to juggle face buttons, and I'm not ragging on SMB or Megaman for doing what they did with the limitations of an NES controller. But I think its an inferior choice when you have the option to do otherwise.

Like what I said with Megaman's charge shot. Yeah, it's not insurmountable, every kid who played a Megaman with a charge shot learned how to hold the fire button with one part of their thumb and hit jump with another. But that's a weird input, isn't it? You need half your thumb on one button and half on the other, or the tip holding down the button and flexing the knuckle to press jump, or something like that depending on what kind of controller you're using. But it would be a whole lot easier if you could just hold a trigger to keep the charge held, and leave your thumb completely free to worry about the jump button, wouldn't it?

I dunno, I think stuff like this has bothered me ever since I got SMW on the Wii and tried playing it with a Gamecube controller. The absolutely asinine way I had to contort my hand just to run and jump at the same time got me thinking a lot about how to make button choices as intuitive and comfortable as possible.

[Indigo Rush]

The only thing I'll add to that is that for Mega Man and Mario, that is a definite issue, and even Rayman maps the run action to a trigger. But for Sonic, he doesn't, or at least shouldn't, have a separate run button, and when he did, it was mapped to a trigger. That being said, spin-dashing and jumping are not constant actions - you're not likely to be spin-dashing and then jumping simultaneously (unless you want to "exit" a spin-dash while charging?), and once you're in a roll, you're not really holding the button down at this point, and your thumb is free to switch between that and the jump button. 

That's my 2 cents, though. I'm still rather fond of the idea of mapping the roll/spin-dash to a trigger anyway, so I'm not really bothered.