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Sonic Spitball - Part Two!

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I think your Mario World problem is just the results of inconvenient button placement as well as non-adjusted button mapping for the Game-cube controller. They just didn't account for it.

 

I would say that it's not truly that inconvenient to hold down a face button to run while tapping the jump button. The only problem there is you won't be able to tap the jump button as fast.

 

Though in MegaMan, having to switch between buttons for jumpin' and shootin' is definitely more inconvenient, noticeably more. It would be easier to shoot more precisely, had the button been assigned to trigger...if it could've been that is.

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20 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I think your Mario World problem is just the results of inconvenient button placement as well as non-adjusted button mapping for the Game-cube controller. They just didn't account for it.

Well yeah, but my point is button assignment isn't just about throwing everything on there, you've got to think through how everything is going to be used. If you don't, you risk hurting the game.

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Even though I'm never gonna be able to agree 100% with him (I personally prefer binding the jump button to L2 and R2 so that the player would never ever have to take their hands off of the camera for even a second), that still doesn't change the fact that that video was extremely well made and had almost every single thing needed for a solid foundation (he didn't say anything about the level structure for some reason), so great job ShayMay, it was worth the wait.

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The problem I have with using shoulder buttons is that unless you're playing with a WiiU pad, they're generally less responsive than the rest of the buttons on your controller because they have a larger frame of movement to consider. Most games are actually designed with this limitation in mind. Shooters for example work well with it because besides the fact that the triggers on real guns generally need to be fully pulled to fire, in most of them you have pretty good reason to second-guess your shots and abort midway through pulling the trigger - a misplaced shot will at best waste a bullet of which are typically finite, and at worst result in friendly fire. In platformers the triggers work best for functions that don't require timing potentially precise enough to be counted in frames (typically "mode switches" for lack of a better description, which ranges from crouching to those stupid gem things in '06), which is why I think using both of them for the Homing Attack - something that could easily have a window of opportunity less than a second's worth if you're moving fast enough - is kind of a fucking stupid idea, especially when you're making the jump function hog every face button in lieu of sharing them. I feel like you could split jumping and HAing between the face buttons (A/B and X/Y respectively) with fairly little trouble tbh, especially considering they're going to be used in tandem pretty often anyway.

Also I kinda wanted to make a more personal note on the Instashield:

sonic_insta_shield_by_pokesega64-d91a4lz

I've never been too big on it tbh, but you know what i do like about it? It doesn't even really look like a shield. For the longest time I believed it was just an extension of his spin, kinda like Sonic sticking his arms out while spinning to extend his reach for that brief moment? Not only do I think that sounds a lot cooler, it also makes a hell of a lot more sense within Sonic's existing abilities than simply being able to conjure a deadly shield right out of buttfuck nowhere for a split second. Soooooo... why not just make it a straight up attack button instead? Keep the all-encompassing hitbox, but give him several unique animations depending on where enemies are relative to him when he uses it. It'd still be functionally identical to the original instashield and Shay's interpretation of it, just a hell of a lot flashier.

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I have a question regarding discussion in previous pages. Tara suggested splitting series into 2, while others said that you can't satisfy everyone, that there is too many groups. So my question is: Do people here really care what the gameplay is? Classic, Adventure, Boosts, ShayMays theoretical gameplay. Would anybody abandon Sonic if one of those gamestyles was chosen as one definitive gameplay for rest of the series?

I MIGHT BE WRONG, but I think that those gamestyles are fairly similar to each other. They can be tweaked of course, but in the end I don't think that game play is what divides the fanbase. The only requirement is quality. No Sonic 06. No Rise of Lyric. Heck I will stab my favorite, no Sonic Adventure's camera. I believe that as long as Sega finally puts some damn effort into Sonic, then gameplay wouldn't be a problem.

And what I think Tara meant earlier (again, I might be wrong) is to split Sonic in subject of characters, tone and story. I think I would support any choice Sega would make (probably Classics series would be best option, especially if we can adapt in 3D) as long as Sonic games would have quality and tone I like. Ok, it's not perfect, but I think it's good enough to satisfy majority.

Of course this is only half of the problem, but taking example of ShayMay I want to tackle one problem at the time. Does anyone disagrees with my thought process so far?

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6 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

So my question is: Do people here really care what the gameplay is?

Do you think that all these arguments would have existed if we didn't?

What kind of question is this, anyway? Of course I care about the content of the games I play. Otherwise I'd have no reason to follow any series, I could just buy games at random.

...okay, okay, there's the whole issue of quality, but there are thousands of games out there that I can recognize as "good games" that, nevertheless, I still have no interest in playing. You aren't going to find me buying many FPSes because it's a genre I have little to no interest in. That doesn't mean that all FPSes are bad, just that they don't provide what I want out of a game. If they make a Sonic game that's "good" but doesn't capture the things I care about, then I'm as interested in buying it as I am the next Call of Duty or whatever.

And on top of that there are some iterations of Sonic gameplay that I think are just bad, beyond specific implementations. I think the Boost gameplay is fundamentally unviable; it leads to painfully shallow gameplay, and it's so costly to make that you'll end up with a game too short to sell at full price or one padded with some other more cost-efficient gameplay. And I have trouble imagining even the best possible RoL-styled game being good, with it being such a hodgepodge of ideas yet bringing nothing new to any of them.

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I think a good solution to the controller problem would be giving the player choice what mode to use. I don't know whether this is becoming a norm in the gaming industry, but I noticed more games are using the shoulder buttons for important actions than before, and spreading the actions over multiple fingers does make sense. However, to many people (myself included) this button assignment might feel weird since the face buttons have always been used for main actions in platformers. In the end, it's really a matter of preference.

While asking the player for control mode before actually playing the game wouldn't be a good idea in a game with many actions and moves (since you couldn't know what mode would be more fitting), it could work in a game with only three action buttons, especially with modes being clearly different. When the game asks you how you'd like the controls to be mapped, you could immediately decide whether you prefer the face or shoulder buttons.

Maybe the shoulder button mode could be called "Classic" due to several jump buttons and the other mode could be called... something else, so different fractions of the fanbase would feel like they are getting something for their tastes from the same game.

Also, I would keep the HA on the jump button. If the Insta-Shield is necessary, it could be assigned to one of the other action buttons.

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Everyone has said what has been said. The 3D proof of concept sounds great...

However, I think Shaymay is merely putting off of what could be some more interesting mechanics. If it's one thing he does a lot, is romanticize certain aspects in the design of Sonic that didn't do a whole lot in the long run. The elemental shields, while great, were wasted potential in Sonic 3k. Sure the bubble was good for Hydrocity but what else could it do to compliment Sonic's speed? The electric shield is just a double jump, which is so common in platformers even Sonic now has it so it feels like a complete waste to just give him that(Lost World and Forces now have that as his mainstay). The fire shield is the only thing that actually makes him a little more interesting, however the problem is still prevalent..Air Dash/Dash in general is like implementing boost to Adventure games. It basically nullifies spin dash and doesn't give the player an incentive to use it anymore. Advance 1 is a good example of what happens when you give 2D Sonic Air dash. It was great but a little broken.

I just think in general he needs to throw away the shields in favor of powerups that can be used when having a certain amount of ring power. That way, it not only makes the game feel a little deeper but Rings become far more valuable than before.

Really, I agree with a lot of his stuff(though I'm not fond of the romanticizing of the Genesis games). 

Although this sounds great, I believe you can make Sonic deeper mechanically. This just seems a little too basic for Sonic, and I can't imagine Sonic doing interesting things with the levels unless they are gimmick focused or a more "non-linear" level approach.

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34 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Everyone has said what has been said. The 3D proof of concept sounds great...

However, I think Shaymay is merely putting off of what could be some more interesting mechanics. If it's one thing he does a lot, is romanticize certain aspects in the design of Sonic that didn't do a whole lot in the long run. The elemental shields, while great, were wasted potential in Sonic 3k. Sure the bubble was good for Hydrocity but what else could it do to compliment Sonic's speed? The electric shield is just a double jump, which is so common in platformers even Sonic now has it so it feels like a complete waste to just give him that(Lost World and Forces now have that as his mainstay). The fire shield is the only thing that actually makes him a little more interesting, however the problem is still prevalent..Air Dash/Dash in general is like implementing boost to Adventure games. It basically nullifies spin dash and doesn't give the player an incentive to use it anymore. Advance 1 is a good example of what happens when you give 2D Sonic Air dash. It was great but a little broken.

I just think in general he needs to throw away the shields in favor of powerups that can be used when having a certain amount of ring power. That way, it not only makes the game feel a little deeper but Rings become far more valuable than before.

Really, I agree with a lot of his stuff(though I'm not fond of the romanticizing of the Genesis games). 

Although this sounds great, I believe you can make Sonic deeper mechanically. This just seems a little too basic for Sonic, and I can't imagine Sonic doing interesting things with the levels unless they are gimmick focused or a more "non-linear" level approach.

Honestly, how I view Part 3 is like...take the concept of Breath of the Wild or Mario Odessey and well...apply it to Sonic. That's basically what Shay is asking for here, someting simple but still big expansive and a bit of hidden depth. (kinda like the original games when you think about it)

Now granted given you'd have to make a complex physics system AND make the game fast paced that would be a lot harder to do, but...a man can dream right?

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