Final Fantasy 7 Remake "is this the real life..."

[Teoskaven]

Is that Mark Hamill or Jim Cummings as Don Corneo?

Anyway, the more prominent changes that i've seen in the trailer (President Shinra using an hologram instead of greeting AVALANCHE in Sector 5's reactor, Reno and Rude actually as boss fight in Sector 5's church and a scene with Tseng kidnapping Aerith during Sector 7's destruction) all make sense, i'm really getting the vibe that Square knew in advance that for this first episode they were not going to go outside Midgar so they consulted even on the more minor things to fill in that the original didn't had.
Still very interested, as i was after this year's E3 presentation.

[Meta77]

All I know is Tifas the prime waifu in this again

[Teoskaven]

https://gematsu.com/2019/10/final-fantasy-vii-remake-reveals-ghost-enemy

To be in spirit (eh) with the Halloween festivities, Square has released a new screenshot of the train graveyard level, showing the ghost enemies.

Pretty good if you ask me, similar to previous enemies showcased the team is staying really close to the original designs.

[Sonicka]

Got to say, up until playing the Demo of this at EGX a few weekends ago I was very very skeptical of everything... the episodic structure, the whole of part 1 just being in Midgar, and how they’d translate the original experience into an action RPG. I was worried, and not that interested in picking this up. Especially for it’s price point.

But, I’m not concerned anymore.

If the quality of what I played is the same throughout all of episode 1 and beyond... Then they can damn well take as long as they want releasing it this way. Square Enix set a real high standard here. 

I heard this from many other previews, but I have to echo their statements that the actual action combat itself just... clicks. Its a real surprise. It’s like a wonderful evolution of Kingdom Hearts combat system with just the right elements of Final Fantasy’s ATB thrown in for good measure. The fact that you can switch between characters at any time, the amazing slowdown that is created when you “pause” to consider your tactical options to select certain moves, and that you have to use your surroundings to your advantage in combat is really engaging and exciting during a fight. It works really well.

I still think the asking price is waaaaay too high for just 1 part of a remake of a PS1 game. But I’m starting to understand why when all the production values are considered in total. The effort cannot be ignored. I’m just gunna hope the entire game holds up to what I experienced.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

11 minutes ago, Son-icka said:

I heard this from many other previews, but I have to echo their statements that the actual action combat itself just... clicks. Its a real surprise. It’s like a wonderful evolution of Kingdom Hearts combat system with just the right elements of Final Fantasy’s ATB thrown in for good measure. The fact that you can switch between characters at any time, the amazing slowdown that is created when you “pause” to consider your tactical options to select certain moves, and that you have to use your surroundings to your advantage in combat is really engaging and exciting during a fight. It works really well.

Don't forget they also said the classic turn based style of the first game is a option that can be turned on and off too, so players won't be forced to only play the new gameplay style. It is nice they tried to include both sides of the gameplay fandom there.

[Sonicka]

8 hours ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Don't forget they also said the classic turn based style of the first game is a option that can be turned on and off too, so players won't be forced to only play the new gameplay style. It is nice they tried to include both sides of the gameplay fandom there.

This is a thing. Buuuut hopefully the purist part of the fandom understand it’s not going to be exactly the same.

Its something we found out when discussing it with some of the Playstation representatives when we were there, my friend misunderstood telling them he was excited there was an option to play it just like FFVII and they kept awkwardly trying to explain that it’s not exactly how classic mode functions. 

Best way to think of it is that it just disables the action based combat and places all characters into AI mode than yourself controlling them running around hacking and slashing. So it’s more of an illusion of a classic mode that templates over the standard gameplay type. 

Basically, everything is pretty much exactly the same except that your characters acts automatically until the ATB fills up to make the bigger actions. The ability to pause/slowdown to choose special attacks/ potions/magic is part of the standard new action orientated gameplay regardless of what mode you choose, you’re just even more of a tactician in classic mode is all.

However, it is still great that they included this as an option even at all.

[Teoskaven]

New trailer featuring the Honeybee Inn (the owner gives me Lightning Returns NPC flashbacks), Red XIII and the rest of the Shinra executives:

 

 

Apparently the song in the background is an original one scored by Nobuo Uematsu with the lyrics wrote by Nojima himself, while the singer is a guy called Yosh from a band called Survive Said the Prophet.
Weird.
Also, Cloud's english VA can't do a kid's voice, i'm sorry.

Still, the hype is real. And so is the writing.

 

-also i want Scarlett to step on me, pls help-

[Wraith]

The demo is out and you can play it now. Some thoughts:
 

Spoiler

Right off the bat I realized all the drama over whether this was an action game or not was silly. It's a 6th/7th gen Square RPG through and through with the action game elements only supplementing that. Blocking and dodging can mitigate damage but you'll be eating a lot of hits, casting spells to weaken enemies, healing, and pausing to make strategic decisions regardless. It isn't like Kingdom Hearts where traditional action game skills like reflexes and execution can keep you from taking damage at all. You're pretty much forced to interact with the strategic side of things from the word go. 

If I were to think of this game as an action game it would be pretty disappointing but as an RPG it feels like their most competent system in a while. It's pretty simple: Attack to fill up the ATB gauge and once it's charge you can select actions like magic, items and special physical attacks from a menu. The game pauses so often that ironically it felt like you have more time to think about what to do next than the original game. When I was playing the game "properly" the action stopped a lot, so I wonder how fans coming over from Kingdom Hearts and other Action RPGs will feel about this system. Theres a fun gameplay loop of picking the right options to stagger your enemies and then punishing them with big damage but I wonder how that loop is gonna hold up over dozens of hours. 

Cloud was more fun than Barret with his stance switch system but there wasn't a whole lot to either character. I feel like that's fine since the depth SHOULD come from how you arrange your party and how they synergize with eachother. There are only two more party members in this version of FF7 though so I hope they come with a lot of ways to shake things up. Materia SHOULD Help a lot with that but I have no idea how deep into that system they plan to go for part 1.

I liked the banter between characters a lot more than I thought I would. Writing just might be this game's strong suit after XV and KH3 were kind of a mess in that regard. I think the overall story is gonna suffer from being split up like this but if the characters are more fun and fleshed out than the original to make up for it I can accept it.

I'll probably wait and see what people think of the combat in the final game before I play it but it seems fine. 

 

 

 

[pppp]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

The demo is out and you can play it now. Some thoughts:
 

  Hide contents

I wonder how fans coming over from Kingdom Hearts and other Action RPGs will feel about this system.

 

 

 

If you check out the 2015 trailer It looks like the original plan was indeed to use the Versus/FFXV(2013) battle system, which was very much KH2 but with party member swapping. For those that are not aware this game is being developed by Nomura's main team that made KH1,KH2,World Ends With You and worked on Versus XIII/FFXV(2013)  for years.

 

The KH style command menu in the bottom left corner suggests it was gonna be what Versus was going for, my guess is after this trailer caused backlash from fans who wanted turn based combat the developers decided to try to find a compromise between the 2, hence why we have this now.

[Wraith]

7 hours ago, pppp said:

If you check out the 2015 trailer It looks like the original plan was indeed to use the Versus/FFXV(2013) battle system, which was very much KH2 but with party member swapping. For those that are not aware this game is being developed by Nomura's main team that made KH1,KH2,World Ends With You and worked on Versus XIII/FFXV(2013)  for years.

 

The KH style command menu in the bottom left corner suggests it was gonna be what Versus was going for, my guess is after this trailer caused backlash from fans who wanted turn based combat the developers decided to try to find a compromise between the 2, hence why we have this now.

I would have liked the game more if they stuck with it but I respect them for looking out for fans of the OG first. There's plenty of action games I can play instead.

[Teoskaven]

Maximilian got to play another demo behind closed doors at the SE offices, and while he can't show footage (aside from videos that Square actually released) he was allowed to talk a bit about it, and considering all he has decribed in the past has bee proven real until now, i can believe that. Potential spoilers for new stuff in Chapter 2 (the aftermath of the Mako Reactor #1 bombing) and Chapter 7 (the Mako Reactor #5 bombing mission) of the game in case you don't want to watch the entire video:

Spoiler

*Sector 1/8 are in absolute chaos when Cloud and the others have to reach the train after the bombing, there are ruins, injured and paramedics all over the place and you get to witness a couple of buildings falling and some explosions while you traverse the wreckage. I dread to think what the devastation is gonna be for the falling of Sector 7.
*Cloud has a major PTSD moment where he sees Nibelheim in flames and Sephiroth taunts him multiple times. Apparently it's implied he has killed his mother under his eyes during the burning. In general it seems the sequences are much more played for psychological horror, with Cloud freaking out a lot.
*Aerith' introduction is different since you see her first talking to herself and shooing away the air, but the moment Cloud starts talking with her, Sephiroth goes full Dio Brando and stops time taunting Cloud about "not being able to save anyone". Then there's the classic flower exchange but after that, the smoke ghosts show up and apparently form actual demons that only Cloud and Aerith can see
*Cloud can choose to keep the flower or not, this time he doesn't have to pay for it
*the sequence where Cloud has to escape the Shinra troops before reaching the train has been expanded with new enemy types like the shield/baton wielder that is shown in the trailer after the demo
*you can "customize" how the fight with Airbuster is gonna go by collecting keycards and choosing what parts to not implement in it, disabling some attacks. The fight is gonna be tough reguardless
*major summons seem to be active only for boss fights, while the smaller ones like Carbuncle or Chocobo chick are avaible also for regular battles
*before fighting Aps you can choose who to talk with first between the unconcious Tifa and Aerith just like in the original game.

 

 

[KHCast]

I’m slightly warming up to the combat. Still eh feeling about the multiple parts thing this games going with, and still cynical on if it’s even gonna be completed if this passes 3 parts, and I’m certainly not vibing with the the AAA bs going on with it (gated dlc via a deluxe edition, food tie in dlc promotions, which is kinda ironic given the theming of the game being explicitly anti-corporate, with even the promotions of this remake focusing on this, and mega expensive collectors editions), but the actual game itself is pretty solid and has a lot of love put into it. The game looks and sounds to be chalk full of content, so on that front I’m pretty confident on it. But I’ll wait to see what critics and fans think first once it’s out. 
 

Also still not really big on them not calling it FF7R-part 1, or something along those lines. Comes off a bit misleading even though they say on the back of the box it’s part of a saga. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

9 hours ago, KHCast said:

Also still not really big on them not calling it FF7R-part 1, or something along those lines. Comes off a bit misleading even though they say on the back of the box it’s part of a saga. 

Hey, gotta take advantage of those who don't know better.

Me on the other hand, I'm waiting until we get the inevitable full version of the game that compiles all parts (or at least all discs in a collection,) together.

[Wraith]

I don't see the point in waiting since we could be looking at a good 5+ years since it's all done and I'd rather see how it plays out broken up like this. They're all supposed to stand on their own as individual products so I might as well judge them by that metric.

I fell in love with the combat system on my third spin of the demo so I might as well get the full game at this point. I don't expect it to surpass the original but it'll be a nice time. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

looking at a good 5+ years since it's all done and I'd rather see how it plays out broken up like this.

Good for you, but some of us are more patient than others.

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

They're all supposed to stand on their own as individual products

In that regard, I still have my doubts in Square Enix.

Either way, I plan to save my money for the inevitable complete release.

[DabigRG]

How about that trans Cloud?

No but for real though, I been listening to episodes/excepts of Super Best Friends and remembering all the not exactly kosher moments the original game had.

[Wraith]

TLDR: It was good. A solid 8. If you like Final Fantasy you should play it, but you'll appreciate it more if you play the original in full first so I suggest you do that before starting. 
 

Spoiler

Final Fantasy 7 Remake is here and despite being one of the SE games I was most worried about at announcement it managed to surpass all my expectations. Square Enix has crafted their most polished JRPG in a while with this one. 

To start off this is probably one of THE most visually inconsistent games I've ever played because sometimes it's straight up the best looking game on the PS4. Midgar is beautifully realized, especially in the slick, neon nighttime settings that defined it's aesthetic. The main party's models are so fucking detailed that it's insane. The battles have so much visual flair that every move you make has a ton of feedback that makes you feel like a supercomputer for making that call. The animations and sound design are lovely: Cloud's swings carry so much weight here and the sounds it makes when tearing into shinra soldiers...yes. 



There's only  really one downside here but it's a big one: The textures can be really rough on inspection: not a big deal during the night time segments where the game's wonderful lighting is carrying things but during Midgar's many day sections it can get..rough. The model quality doesn't hold up across the entire cast either, which is to be expected, but it can be jarring to the point of taking you out of things sometimes.

The battle system seemed like it was going to trample the strategy of the original with action game mechanics but it seemed like the opposite happened. Planning, decision making and resource management are the skills that are tested here with reaction time and execution taking a huge back seat. Me trying to dodge and parry my way through the game just ended with me getting punished every time. Movement options, frame data and casting times are slow, encouraging you to choose your options carefully and wait for openings. I was initially really disappointed by this but the more I leaned into this system the more I enjoyed it. It feels good to watch a plan fall into place or to pause the game and just think your way out of a bad spot.

 
  
There are only 4 party members in this game but they're all fully playable to compensate. They all had unique attributes that the game encourages you to take advantage of with a variety of enemy types, but Materia meant this was balanced with a lot of freedom in terms of playstyle. There's definetly a way they want you to lean into playing all of them but you can also ignore all of that and go ham if you please. Make Barret the team healer. What's stopping you?
 

Different situations call for different characters but you can also "main" a character and devote the rest of your party to propping that character up if you want. It got me through some fights where AI was misbehaving when I needed to.

That's one negative that I can start with: AI in this game is competent but in terms of clutch strategies you won't be able to rely on them for anything. I can't count how many times I wanted to line up a couple of moves to pressure enemies or escape a bad situation only to switch over to my party member and see she had no ATB charges. I noticed they tended to get smarter when the fights got more intense but they'd just slip up a little too often for my liking. Like, there's NO reason Aerith should be walking closer to her enemies at any circumstance but the AI chooses weird times to forget this. 

Another negative is the camera. Once you figure out how the lock on works it's not a huge issue but when a lot of enemies are on screen it's easy to get overwhelmed and blindsided.  This would never be a problem in the OG: You'd know the entire lay of the land before making a decision. 




My favorite part of the game was the writing, which was actually fine for the most part bar a few weird decisions. The character interactions and their constant development will be what carries you through this game, more than the overarching plot or the combat system. I have a soft spot for characters like Cloud that are stoic and aloof but come out of their shell as time goes on. They did a good job here letting him show cracks while giving him more room to grow in the next games.

Tifa and Barret acted largely as I expected them too with Barret in particular being a delight by being such a raging rebel that would spout speeches about how corporations are killing the planet at every opportunity. He constantly gives Cloud shit and won't give the guy an inch which is pretty fun to see. They kept true to Tifa actually being a sweetheart under the tough exterior which actually made her more endearing to me than if they played that trope straight. 

Aerith is an interesting case because in a lot of ways she's never been characterized better than she is in this game but they also made a lot of changes that won't sit well with anyone for sure. I just know that she was MY favorite, so yeah. 

The dialogue from moment to moment stays good, even with NPCs and during side missions. They fleshed out a lot of characters that were forgettable in the original game. Midgar itself also got a pretty big upgrade in terms of worldbuilding. You explore sectors 5, 6 and 7 in this game and they all feel pretty distinct in their own ways despite the same run down buildings and debris dominating the adventure. The quality of side content was hit or miss but I was weirdly encouraged to do it all by how the towns responded: the whispers you hear of cloud as you walk around town improve. Kids start carrying around buster swords and stuff. It's nice. Sector 6 is pretty distinct from the other two by being the wealthier wall market district. That shit is a wild ride from start to finish. You get a sense of history just walking around these places and the strain Shinra puts on every aspect of life is obvious.

The game is basically seamless from the moment Cloud hops off that train, depicting every journey Cloud makes across the city in painstaking detail. You'll take the long walks between sectors and up to Mako reactors yourself with fewer breaks to transition. This makes for a surprisingly slow paced experience for something that covers maybe 3 hours of the OG but I really dug it myself. The only time it kind of dragged was when I had to double back to other locations but thankfully shortcuts and fast travel toward the end alleviate some of this. 

On the whole I was sold on the decision to make Midgar a full game by the end but it came with some key issues: Events that took place in the original are largely propped up by this decision. Caring a little more about Avalanche, the common citizens, and Midgar as a whole flesh out the fight for it's future and make it feel more impactful. But Square enix ended up adding a lot of filler to reach that juicy 50 hour JRPG runtime and not all of it is great. 

Not all of it is bad either. You might be rolling your eyes at the start of the Jesse sidequest toward the start but I thought it was a good call to send Cloud on a mission with these dorks by the end. Other more egregious examples of filler arcs come later which is a shame because the main plot line gets very tense at that point. It becomes silly how many chores the game tries to have you complete before you can even start the charge toward Avalanche in the game's finale where urgency should be the focal point. Most of this stuff actually does have new content in terms of gameplay and mechanics, so it's not like they were lazy with it. They just do a poor job fitting it all into the story in a way that's satisfying from a pacing perspective. A lot of it just feels inconsequential and for a game that's surprisingly weighty and tense when it wants to be that's a shame.

It's also kind of eyeroll inducing when a repeat boss battle does actually sneak in there, but we never reach Re:Mind levels of rehashing here at least?

Overall though this is part of why I suggest playing the original game first. Less of that anxiety of wanting to know what happens next and more being able to dig into Midgar's weird culture.

Still though I wish Square Enix had cut some of this stuff or at least made it optional. A lot of stuff in the campaign would have made fun side missions instead of main story content. I can tell they were anxious about this game being too short but that's far from a problem for me as someone who prefers shorter games. Right now the pacing is the one thing stopping me from recommending it to everyone I know. 

 

Overall though even with it's issues....I'm happy with this game? Much happier than I thought I would be coming off of XV and KH3. It takes a turn toward the end that I'll discuss more once more people are finished with it but other than that it has a lot of reverence for the old without seeking to replace it as an experience. It makes a lot of big changes but most of those changes seem to be to flesh out and prop up the original instead of seeking to be some weird subpar replacement like a lot of remakes do. 

 

 

[KHCast]

Got my current thoughts

 

I’m on chapter 14 atm, but I’m very much enjoying the game. The changes to the story I could have done without though there were some things I certainly have appreciated getting fleshed out or touched up on. Everyone’s personality’s are great. Well, except for Cloud who’s very hit and miss in my book. Dudes a static asshole sometimes and other times shows occasional emotion, and I can’t say I’m a fan of that since it reminds me of Advent Children a little bit. But when he has his good moments, they’re definitely good.

I’ve adjusted to the combat and it’s pretty satisfying. The parry material equipped on cloud really helped me out regarding my dodging complaints. It’s very satisfying to chain combos and switch and continue. My favorite character to play with is definitely Barrett. I’ve made him a heavy damage dealer with high HP that also acts as a medic, so having him in my party has been fun times.

 

games certainly not perfect tho, as I stated earlier there are some of the story changes which just overall come off really meh to me. Mechanic wise it’s great, but a lot of the mini games are pretty one note and uninteresting. Even the motorcycle mini game was more frustrating than fun. Boss battles are 9/10 times are great thrills, but there’s been the occasional bullshit battles (Shiva with her DM bullshit. Had her to 1000 hp and she spams her projectiles making it damn near impossible to get close or shoot any projectiles or heal without taking frequent high damage. Took me 5 times to beat her.) 
 

Some side things to mention: Clouds walking animations are so frustrating. Trying to make subtle precise movements are damn near impossible. That Aerith sneaking mission with him was a pain.

I’m happy the music wasn’t just a bunch of extravagant overbearing renditions of the classic tunes. We got electronic remixes, jazz remixes, blues, classical, mashups, new and original songs, using the original versions of some of them with slight updates, etc. yeah there’s a few forgettable new songs, but I for the most part enjoyed the soundtrack.

I’ll update this with my thoughts on the end segments once I complete the game

[Stasis]

Huge fan of FFVII, completed Remake an hour ago and...

Spoiler

now I'm reading everyone elses thoughts on the ending. All the way through the game I was saying to my girlfriend "they've shown this really early on" or "this didn't happen yet", "why is Sephiroth everywhere but they haven't even explained who he is...". Like, you don't even see him until the Nibelheim retelling in Kalm but here he is front and centre! The scene where Sephiroth shows up in Jenovas room, following that scene not a single member of your team comments on it upon reuniting with them. Same with Jenova, I was hoping for more back story but nope.

I'm conflicted I really am. What it did it did well. The music was a fucking blast, the cutscenes were phenominal, the gameplay was enjoyable and at times challenging, but now looking back at the story I don't know if I want to play through it again.

I have the understanding that the Whispers represent the fans and make sure everything follows the original. Barret dies? Nope, not in my FFVII. Wedge is alive!? Nope, out the window you go. The extra content is great but now the story is a mess.  Aerith does say everything about Seph is wrong which I'm guessing is the fact that he's here too soon, but storywise coming in as a newbie not knowing the original the team don't know who Seph is or what he's done and yet they fight him. Jenova starts off promising but then nope goodbye. It's basically a Final Fantasy VII version of Sonic Generations with mentions of S and G cells, an Advent Children styled final fight/Seph in Cloud's mind minus the Omnislash input. Yet there's a fucking Kingdom Hearts Darkside looking boss battle before Seph which then screams fuck you Nomura and your Kingdom Hearts bullshit. Don't bring that here! Too bad...

 

I've got my play through on hard mode to take it all in, but I just needed to get this rambled rant off my mind.

 

 

 

[KHCast]

So do we know yet if Part 2 will have any lock on features with part 1 yet? Would be extremely dumb to start back at level 1 with none of the weapons and materials gathered from this...and if there is lock on, how will players that start with part 2 play?(unless the game up and tells you you can’t play the 60+ dollar game you bought until you spend more money on part 1 and spend time beating that?)

[Teoskaven]

Square has stated that for the next couple of years any game developed for the next gen hardwares will also have a PS4/Xbone version, and that applies to the next FFVIIR parts; combined with the fact that the level cap for part 1 is 50, i can see actual save data interconnectivity.
This also will help shortening the times and costs of production because the team already has a lot of assets to work with from the getgo instead of having to build everything again from scratch.

[Bobnik]

37 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So do we know yet if Part 2 will have any lock on features with part 1 yet? Would be extremely dumb to start back at level 1 with none of the weapons and materials gathered from this...and if there is lock on, how will players that start with part 2 play?(unless the game up and tells you you can’t play the 60+ dollar game you bought until you spend more money on part 1 and spend time beating that?)

We have no info on that. The best case scenario would be that they could make a save transfer feature ala Mass Effect series - you could transfer your save file and you could get some bonuses, like more skill points and maybe some additional items, but you still would start at level 1.

It'd be weird if they just said "you have to buy and finish part 1 to be able to play part 2". That'd be like making you play Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, Dream Drop Distance and re:coded to unlock KH3.

That said, I'll probably make people mad, but I kinda don't want the next game to be on PS4/XBone because even this game is clearly limited by the console it was made for. A lot of squeeze-throughs to mask loading, backgrounds being bad-quality pngs, textures not loading properly, etc. 

[Wraith]

43 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So do we know yet if Part 2 will have any lock on features with part 1 yet? Would be extremely dumb to start back at level 1 with none of the weapons and materials gathered from this...and if there is lock on, how will players that start with part 2 play?(unless the game up and tells you you can’t play the 60+ dollar game you bought until you spend more money on part 1 and spend time beating that?)

 

6 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

We have no info on that. The best case scenario would be that they could make a save transfer feature ala Mass Effect series - you could transfer your save file and you could get some bonuses, like more skill points and maybe some additional items, but you still would start at level 1.

It'd be weird if they just said "you have to buy and finish part 1 to be able to play part 2". That'd be like making you play Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, Dream Drop Distance and re:coded to unlock KH3.

There are RPGs that didn't start the player at level 1. They could just pick a default level for players jumping into the second game as their starting point.

[KHCast]

18 minutes ago, Teoskaven said:

Square has stated that for the next couple of years any game developed for the next gen hardwares will also have a PS4/Xbone version, and that applies to the next FFVIIR parts; combined with the fact that the level cap for part 1 is 50, i can see actual save data interconnectivity.
This also will help shortening the times and costs of production because the team already has a lot of assets to work with from the getgo instead of having to build everything again from scratch.

Wonder what the max caps for part 2 and 3 will be if this is the case. Maybe 100 and 150?

[KHCast]

 

It’s only on PS4 and the digital sales alone are gonna pass KH3 and FFXV, which were multi-plat. Jeezus