Sonic: Should Story Matter?

[Chaos Incarnate]

I like good stories in video games as much as anyone else, but I've come to a point where my standards for this series are so low that I don't really have huge expectations. A bad story isn't really going to ruin if a game is fun for me, unless the game itself is a story centric one, like an RPG, or a Telltale story adventure game.

Sonic is a platformer at the end of the day, and while it's nice to have a good, enjoyable story, a bad one won't lower a Sonic game for me (Sonic Generations)

Edited October 18, 2015 by Chaos Incarnate

[PandoloFox]

If their series had as large an existing fanbase to tap into as Sonic had, if it was as oldschool-game-vague as Sonic was, and if the writers had the freedom to fill in that vagueness with damn near anything they could come up with, probably any hero could've done it.

Vague? I think i know what you are getting at but  "vague" is probably not the right word since sonics narrative in the classic games were far from vague. The Sonic comics on the other hand had a lot of freedom in story telling cause the games were straight forward. robotnik is the enemy, sonic is our action hero who saves the day. ofcourse sonic 3 and knuckles would spice it all up quite a bit. 

It has an interesting premise to build on and explore with lots of secrets to uncover, like the chaos emeralds.

[Kuzu]

If their series had as large an existing fanbase to tap into as Sonic had, if it was as oldschool-game-vague as Sonic was, and if the writers had the freedom to fill in that vagueness with damn near anything they could come up with, probably any hero could've done it.

 

But has any hero ACTUALLY done it :\

[Wraith]

But has any hero ACTUALLY done it :\

That's not the point. 

If anyone had as much freedom as the Archie writers did to make up as much bullshit as they want for the majority of the comic's life, then yeah, you COULD make a long running comic out of any old game. This isn't an achievement that only Sonic could have pulled off. 

It's also why the Archie comics were bad for so long too. It's only when they had more limitations placed on them when it really started to become something worth giving a damn about.

[PandoloFox]

That's not the point. 

If anyone had as much freedom as the Archie writers did to make up as much bullshit as they want for the majority of the comic's life, then yeah, you COULD make a long running comic out of any old game. This isn't an achievement that only Sonic could have pulled off. 

It's also why the Archie comics were bad for so long too. It's only when they had more limitations placed on them when it really started to become something worth giving a damn about.

I just feel like pointing out that mario had a tv show and a comic. so obviously not "any" game can succeed with it.

And no offense here, but statements that "anyone" could have done it comes of as trying to neglect what sonic achieved.

[Wraith]

I just feel like pointing out that mario had a tv show and a comic. so obviously not "any" game can succeed with it.

The Mario "Comic" was a small feature that ran in another magazine. It wasn't ever any serious attempt to make a long running comic. If they wanted to, they could have pulled it off. 

The TV show was successful to, but it was likely stopped after Nintendo didn't see any need for it. Same with Sonic's 4 other tries at TV. 

[PandoloFox]

The Mario "Comic" was a small feature that ran in another magazine. It wasn't ever any serious attempt to make a long running comic. If they wanted to, they could have pulled it off. 

The TV show was successful to, but it was likely stopped after Nintendo didn't see any need for it. Same with Sonic's 4 other tries at TV. 

You normaly dont stop something that brings in money. Satam stopped because it had to compete with power rangers, adventures of sonic the hedgehog wasnt as popular as satam and stopped, dont know the details about sonic x and boom is to be determined.

[Diogenes]

But has any hero ACTUALLY done it :\

My point is that the Archie comics didn't succeed because of any inherent story-worthiness of Sonic. Even from the start the Archieverse was wildly different from the games. The whole "freedom fighters vs entrenched dictator" setup of the Archieverse is about as far from the "wandering hero vs mad scientist" setup of the games as you can get. Most of the Archieverse's cast was invented either by the comics themselves or by other non-game Sonic media. And even the game characters were so loosely defined that they had to invent their "voices" almost from whole cloth. It very nearly could've been its own thing, it just happened to have a couple of familiar faces in it giving it a head start.

[PandoloFox]

My point is that the Archie comics didn't succeed because of any inherent story-worthiness of Sonic. Even from the start the Archieverse was wildly different from the games. The whole "freedom fighters vs entrenched dictator" setup of the Archieverse is about as far from the "wandering hero vs mad scientist" setup of the games as you can get. Most of the Archieverse's cast was invented either by the comics themselves or by other non-game Sonic media. And even the game characters were so loosely defined that they had to invent their "voices" almost from whole cloth. It very nearly could've been its own thing, it just happened to have a couple of familiar faces in it giving it a head start.

I read the comics, they start of with being a lot more comical. But the main premise of "sonic fighting a scientist" is still there. just that now, he has a hideout and friends. And while they use some elements randomly like the special zones, they dont go beyond the actual premise. Robotnik is still making robots of animals, sonic is still freeing and saving them.

[Diogenes]

Yes, I know that they didn't ignore literally every aspect of the games. But the few things they did bother were either largely insignificant references or were twisted to mean something entirely different. Yes, in both of them Eggman/Robotnik "makes robots out of animals", but roboticization takes that in a completely different direction than the games' robots which leads to completely different stories and tones. Again the only actual benefit that Sonic offered is that the series was vague enough and the extra-medium writers unrestricted enough that they could twist the idea into something wildly different.

[PandoloFox]

Yes, I know that they didn't ignore literally every aspect of the games. But the few things they did bother were either largely insignificant references or were twisted to mean something entirely different. Yes, in both of them Eggman/Robotnik "makes robots out of animals", but roboticization takes that in a completely different direction than the games' robots which leads to completely different stories and tones. Again the only actual benefit that Sonic offered is that the series was vague enough and the extra-medium writers unrestricted enough that they could twist the idea into something wildly different.

Its kind of hard to make a deeper story about turning animals into robots look lighthearted. the reason the sonic games could get away with it while still comming of as a straight action story is because it didnt bother with explaining it. You know that robotnik is doing it and thats it, but thats also why i thought the roboticization process was a nice interpretation of it. But despite this, sonic still had moments of laughter and overall downtime. A good writer knows that you cant keep cramming the same tone on someone forever. If its dark for a long time people will get depressed and ultimately wont be able to keep reading. same with lighthearted. the reader will eventualy get bored with it. it needs to go up and down in order for it to remain interesting.

[Diogenes]

Okay but what does any of that have to do with what I was talking about.

[PandoloFox]

Okay but what does any of that have to do with what I was talking about.

nothing, realy. i acknowledged your point of view and tried to explain why certain things turned out that way.

but its not realy "twisting" when the medium doesnt explain how certain things happen to begin with and even in the games sonic wasnt overly lighthearted. 

[Diogenes]

I'm pretty sure turning game-badniks, where you can free the animal just by smashing the robot it's in, into roboticization, which turns flesh and blood into metal and brainwashes the victim, and reversing it is treated as a serious problem, is more than sufficient to call "twisted".

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just as a side note, I don't think the problem with Archie Sonic was the limitations, it was the editor. During Penders and Bollers' runs, the editor was so lazy that he just let the two run wild with whatever the hell they wanted, a very bad tool in the hands of people who didn't have a clue about Sonic, and especially bad in the hand of a terrible writer (Penders).

That's what lead to the terrible first 160 issues of the series, the editor not doing his job, and Sega being too lazy to actually enforce their limitations. It was when a new editor came on, he began doing his job to make things more interesting and more like Sonic, which caused Penders to quit (Bollers quit because of Penders altering his stories). This is what lead to Ian, and from what we understand, the Sega mandates being more heavily enforced.

[PandoloFox]

I'm pretty sure turning game-badniks, where you can free the animal just by smashing the robot it's in, into roboticization, which turns flesh and blood into metal and brainwashes the victim, and reversing it is treated as a serious problem, is more than sufficient to call "twisted".

The smashing part, sure. the brainwashing was always there though. they wouldnt be attacking you if they wernt brainwashed or somehow controlled. But if i remember correctly, the robotisation stuff doesnt get introduced right away in the comics. It takes a little while for it to happen and it serves as a dramatic build up.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

The smashing part, sure. the brainwashing was always there though. they wouldnt be attacking you if they wernt brainwashed or somehow controlled. But if i remember correctly, the robotisation stuff doesnt get introduced right away in the comics. It takes a little while for it to happen and it serves as a dramatic build up.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not the actual animals attacking you, but rather, the badniks are already created and programmed by Eggman. The animals are simply the batteries that power up the robots. The only game that shows an animal being brainwashed is Tails, and he's more robotized rather than turned into a badnik. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by Ryannumber1Scarer

[Diogenes]

It's impossible to tell for sure if the animals are brainwashed or if the robots just have their own AI. Even with Gamma, the one time the games let you into a robot's head, it could work any number of ways.

[PandoloFox]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not the actual animals attacking you, but rather, the badniks are already created and programmed by Eggman. The animals are simply the batteries that power up the robots. The only game that shows an animal being brainwashed is Tails, and he's more robotized rather than turned into a badnik. 

Thats in a way even darker than being brainwashed. being concious about what things that are happening around you but not being able to help. also knowing that in a way you are the source of it happening since you are powering up the machine. At least when brainwashed you arnt aware of your own actions.

But then again, dont know how much self awareness the animals in the games has anyway. Just makes robotnik seem unnecessarly evil.

 

Edited October 18, 2015 by PandoloFox
grammatical error

[Kuzu]

That's not the point. 

If anyone had as much freedom as the Archie writers did to make up as much bullshit as they want for the majority of the comic's life, then yeah, you COULD make a long running comic out of any old game. This isn't an achievement that only Sonic could have pulled off. 

It's also why the Archie comics were bad for so long too. It's only when they had more limitations placed on them when it really started to become something worth giving a damn about.

My point is that the Archie comics didn't succeed because of any inherent story-worthiness of Sonic. Even from the start the Archieverse was wildly different from the games. The whole "freedom fighters vs entrenched dictator" setup of the Archieverse is about as far from the "wandering hero vs mad scientist" setup of the games as you can get. Most of the Archieverse's cast was invented either by the comics themselves or by other non-game Sonic media. And even the game characters were so loosely defined that they had to invent their "voices" almost from whole cloth. It very nearly could've been its own thing, it just happened to have a couple of familiar faces in it giving it a head start.

But the fact of the matter is, Sonic DID pull it off; talking about a hypothetical scenario where any other video game could have done it is pointless because it ignores the fact that Archie Sonic DID survive off of its plot, no matter how far removed it was from its source material, and still runs to this day. So its like, if Archie Sonic can give sort of a fuck, I don't see why the actual source material can't.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

If their series had as large an existing fanbase to tap into as Sonic had, if it was as oldschool-game-vague as Sonic was, and if the writers had the freedom to fill in that vagueness with damn near anything they could come up with, probably any hero could've done it.

 

To a point, yes.
Never the less, Classic Sonic had introduced enough themes and story elements that the vague and random interpretations of Archie felt like a semi-natural interpretation.
Making Pac-man a Freedom fighter battling ghosts wouldn't work as well.

Sonic's character designs had the perfect blend of animal innocence to make him a tragic victim, attitude to make him able to fight back, looking human enough to substain real adventures but cartoonish enough to allow for a more surreal and abstract interpretation of the world.
Combining the "industrial complexes obsorbing nature" and "animals enslaved into robots" not only make a War between animals and an growing industrial empire feel natural, but also immediatly lead to an easy use for symbolism about slavery, loss of control of your body and mind,  watching friends and family turn into monsters and other intense themes possible within the narrative.

Mario sure as heck couldn't pull any of that off without taking huge leaps with the source material.
Well, unless you want to dive into that weird "Goomba's are corrupted Toads and some Toads were turned into brick block" stuff from the first game.. Heh.
The only comparable classical heroes with Sonic are Megaman and Simon Belmont, perhaps Samus. And surprise, they're also in story heavy platformers.

So yeah, Archie was allowed to take huge leaps of faith with the property, and some of them, those created by our friend Penders in particular, took it too far.
But the building blocks were all there. There's few elements that can't be traced back to the classic games in some capacity.
This is hardly Super Mario the Movie levels of Random-who-gives-a-damn.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Roger_van_der_weide

[CottonCandy]

I can enjoy a videogame if the story is non-existed or straight up terrible. As long as the game itself is fun, I don't really mind. 

However, a good game in addition with a good story just makes it a all around wonderful game to me. Something that's more memorial. Games like okami is a good example. The story in that game has good character interaction and development that it motivated me to keep on playing. It was just the icing on a already well made cake.  Undertale, from what I heard, falls under that too. A story can matter in a videogame. It can increase the enjoyment of it and make it more than just a fun videogame.

When it comes to a franchise like sonic the hedgehog, it can be tricky. Especially when the fandom is so shattered. I can say that a story matters in a sonic game but then you have other people calling me a dumb fool for thinking that way. Good story or not, not everybody will accept it. Especially  certain people outside of the fandom who thinks sonic shouldn't have a story at all. 

 

 

[Nepenthe]

If one doesn't care for the story or think Sonic shouldn't have one, they should skip the cut scenes instead of trying to dictate the direction of something that doesn't concern them, because all it does is needlessly prevent people from getting what they want. Seriously, these people who "don't care" are literally irrelevant. Imagine if these people tried this shit with something like Paper Mario because "Mario shouldn't have story--" oh wait. They are making the stories worse. And it's awful.

[Kuzu]

I really don't understand the movement to actively remove story from Sonic games sometimes; the only ones that seem to care are people who barely care about story to begin with, yet they seem to dedicate more energy to ruining things for everyone else than just enjoying the parts of the game they do like. It really just comes off as people being spiteful when other people enjoy something they don't.

[FriendBot]

I know that a game can still be fun without a story and such but I don't think that doesn't mean they can still can have a story especially when Sonic did tell some nice stories, not AAA quality written stories but some very nice and interesting stories. 

I mean, when I look at a game to see I look at it in its entirety, not just the gameplay. The video game industry has very much evolved from the arcadey style of gaming where it's only the gameplay that matters and has an excuse plot.

I mean, that's why I found Unleashed to be the best game in the Boost Trilogy even though Generations has much better polish in its gameplay, Unleashed's overall presentation and atmosphere is hardly in the same level as Gens.

This is of course my viewing of things, it's fine if the gameplay is all that people would want, that's still a perfectly reasonable look at things. Games are made for gaming but modern gaming are capable to provide much more than just be fun games to play, it can also provide really engaging experiences. Which is why people are really digging Undertale a lot nowadays, not because it's not just a really solid RPG but its story, characters and atmosphere puts it a WHOLE NEW level as well.

I feel that Sonic can do the same as well but hey, that's just me.