To think, just a few years back...

[Nepenthe]

I'm talking about all three in general. People recognized that Colors and Gens were prepping the way for some kind of return to form because they were both technically accomplished enough and not immediately alienating to be appealing, and they were also consistent enough to hint vaguely at the idea that Sega and Sonic Team were getting their shit together. However, few were under the consideration that Sega had "made it," which is apparent in more direct language you'll hear in the fandom about the flaws of these titles, or the indirect acknowledgement from the journalism industry through continuously bringing up the series' past failures and awkward moments without a hint of awareness of the current state of things, which simply isn't done when franchises supplant their bad reputations or properly reinvent themselves. That and people talk about Lost World, a game that is just thoroughly average, as having literally ruined every single bit of progress we made in those few years. Forget Boom, Lost World was practically treated as the start of Revelations, which does nothing but show how little faith we had in Colors and Gens in the first place in terms of how much progress they made.

Meanwhile, ASRT is considered by the general gaming populous to be a top competitor in the entire arcade kart genre, as in it is up there with classics like Mario Kart 8, Crash Team Racing, and Diddy Kong Racing. Colors and Gens weren't even considered  qualitatively competitive with their neighbors Donkey Kong and Rayman, to say nothing of Mario or the classic Sonic games. The difference in gameplay depth to me is also blatant as well- the water physics alone in ASRT are not countered by any similar level of programming prowess in either Colors or Gens.

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

I'm talking about all three in general. People recognized that Colors and Gens were prepping the way for some kind of return to form because they were both technically accomplished enough and not immediately alienating to be appealing, and they were also consistent enough to hint vaguely at the idea that Sega and Sonic Team were getting their shit together. However, few were under the consideration that Sega had "made it," which is apparent in more direct language you'll hear in the fandom about the flaws of these titles, or the indirect acknowledgement from the journalism industry through continuously bringing up the series' past failures and awkward moments without a hint of awareness of the current state of things, which simply isn't done when franchises supplant their bad reputations or properly reinvent themselves. That and people talk about Lost World, a game that is just thoroughly average, as having literally ruined every single bit of progress we made in those few years. Forget Boom, Lost World was practically treated as the start of Revelations, which does nothing but show how little faith we had in Colors and Gens in the first place in terms of how much progress they made.

Meanwhile, ASRT is considered by the general gaming populous to be a top competitor in the entire arcade kart genre, as in it is up there with classics like Mario Kart 8, Crash Team Racing, and Diddy Kong Racing. Colors and Gens weren't even considered  qualitatively competitive with their neighbors Donkey Kong and Rayman, to say nothing of Mario or the classic Sonic games. The difference in gameplay depth to me is also blatant as well- the water physics alone in ASRT are not countered by any similar level of programming prowess in either Colors or Gens.

Hot dog.

When you put it like that...is any sort of "forward momentum" fruitless for the series if there isn't a massive masterpiece that reaches critical acclaim? Or is it a matter of our dissatisfaction with Sonic Team refusing to be consistent with the franchise that keeps us from putting a good amount of faith in their "progress?"

I wasn't exactly following Transformed much after Mario Kart 8 came out though, so I'm happy to hear people think so highly of it.

[PerfectChaos]

I'm talking about all three in general. People recognized that Colors and Gens were prepping the way for some kind of return to form because they were both technically accomplished enough and not immediately alienating to be appealing, and they were also consistent enough to hint vaguely at the idea that Sega and Sonic Team were getting their shit together. However, few were under the consideration that Sega had "made it," which is apparent in more direct language you'll hear in the fandom about the flaws of these titles, or the indirect acknowledgement from the journalism industry through continuously bringing up the series' past failures and awkward moments without a hint of awareness of the current state of things, which simply isn't done when franchises supplant their bad reputations or properly reinvent themselves. That and people talk about Lost World, a game that is just thoroughly average, as having literally ruined every single bit of progress we made in those few years. Forget Boom, Lost World was practically treated as the start of Revelations, which does nothing but show how little faith we had in Colors and Gens in the first place in terms of how much progress they made.

Meanwhile, ASRT is considered by the general gaming populous to be a top competitor in the entire arcade kart genre, as in it is up there with classics like Mario Kart 8, Crash Team Racing, and Diddy Kong Racing. Colors and Gens weren't even considered  qualitatively competitive with their neighbors Donkey Kong and Rayman, to say nothing of Mario or the classic Sonic games. The difference in gameplay depth to me is also blatant as well- the water physics alone in ASRT are not countered by any similar level of programming prowess in either Colors or Gens.

I suppose it's true that Colours and Gens don't get compared to the best platformers out there whilst ASRT did get compared favourably to MK7/8 by many people. 

I think Lost World's reputation was deserved though because if it HAD maintained the upwards trend we were seeing, by now we wouldn't be far from the series being in a very good and safe spot overall, and more importantly the improved quality would not seem like a fluke as it arguably does now, since it was consistent. I at the very LEAST wanted the quality to stay where it was, because no matter how you look at it a 75+ Metascore (which those two games had) is pretty good, Colours almost at 80. That's at least safely above average. So even if no further improvement happened, the series would still be respectable in its current state. 

[Nepenthe]

Hot dog.

When you put it like that...is any sort of "forward momentum" fruitless for the series if there isn't a massive masterpiece that reaches critical acclaim? Or is it a matter of our dissatisfaction with Sonic Team refusing to be consistent with the franchise that keeps us from putting a good amount of faith in their "progress?"

I wasn't exactly following Transformed much after Mario Kart 8 came out though, so I'm happy to hear people think so highly of it.

I don't think any good games are fruitless. A good game can always be appreciated, even if it's just short term. Nor do I believe that this is just undue cynicism towards Sonic Team. I think a bigger culprit is just the hyperbole by which we (SSMB) assess this series in the first place. Whenever a game like Colors or Gens comes out that has nothing wrong with it on the surface, it's hyped to the point that criticism and more honest dialogue is shuttered using terms that tend to be reserved for better and more relevant games. When the game inevitably fails to live up to expectations or turns out to be flawed enough to make an easy argument against it, those who were told to be quiet or shunned for ruining people's fun feel vindicated and proceed to run wild with that in the convening weeks, potentially making out the game to be worse or have had a worse impact than it may actually have.

Following from that, another issue is being too close to the fandom and source material to at least get an idea of how the general public feels about the franchise. Peruse NeoGAF, ranking sites, and Steam long enough and you'll see that Colors, Gens, and even Lost World are not actually all that lambasted as fans and critics here make them out to be. Their reputation ranges from great to good but flawed, and the Chicken Little scenario that happened here with Lost World was woefully underplayed elsewhere. Everyone agrees on the Boom games being shit however, although I haven't been keeping up to know whether or not that has had an effect on the view of the main franchise itself to know whether or not the viewpoint that all the goodwill was undone has significant merit. Although I'd like to think that gamers who spend time discussing the hobby online at least know that Boom isn't a reflection of Sonic Team's output, and people who aren't and just bought it for their children don't actually care and thus are irrelevant to the discussion.

So to answer your question, if the end goal is to put Sonic back onto the pillar of respectability he enjoyed during his early years, better quality control, actual passion, and a few masterpiece games are vital. If however the goal is to make Sonic a respectable middleware franchise (which is the smarter, more tenable goal, if only because the industry has largely moved on from platformers), then we can comfortably coast along with games like Gens, honestly. It would also help to understand that we have a more myopic view than the general public, and that the consensus we form about titles doesn't necessarily reflect how the rest of the world sees things.

I suppose it's true that Colours and Gens don't get compared to the best platformers out there whilst ASRT did get compared favourably to MK7/8 by many people. 

I think Lost World's reputation was deserved though because if it HAD maintained the upwards trend we were seeing, by now we wouldn't be far from the series being in a very good and safe spot overall, and more importantly the improved quality would not seem like a fluke as it arguably does now, since it was consistent. I at the very LEAST wanted the quality to stay where it was, because no matter how you look at it a 75+ Metascore (which those two games had) is pretty good, Colours almost at 80. That's at least safely above average. So even if no further improvement happened, the series would still be respectable in its current state. 

It's difficult to say how far away we were from reaching some sort of franchise resurgence. Had Lost World been better polished, we don't know how much better it would have resonated with the public anyway, a public which already views the game a nowhere near as much of a disaster as SSMB does anyway. Again, the fallout that happened here in regards to Lost World was ridiculous, simply because we managed the feat of overhyping it to oblivion and then overstating its actual harm when reviews said it was a good game.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Phos]

 

Nobody has ever made this complaint until now.

I did when it came out, actually.  

Meanwhile, ASRT is considered by the general gaming populous to be a top competitor in the entire arcade kart genre, as in it is up there with classics like Mario Kart 8, Crash Team Racing, and Diddy Kong Racing. Colors and Gens weren't even considered  qualitatively competitive with their neighbors Donkey Kong and Rayman, to say nothing of Mario or the classic Sonic games. The difference in gameplay depth to me is also blatant as well- the water physics alone in ASRT are not countered by any similar level of programming prowess in either Colors or Gens.

I always feel the need to bring up how I feel like this genre, at least how people typically think of it, it sorely outdated in certain ways, in some ways still functioning like a mode 7 game, but then again, I didn't play ASRT.  Of course, bringing it up like this I'm almost like some kind of Rollcage jehovah's witness, but I can't help but be reminded of it, especially considering how much its physics have in common with Sonic.  Really wish there was a better showcase of it somewhere.  

Hot dog.

When you put it like that...is any sort of "forward momentum" fruitless for the series if there isn't a massive masterpiece that reaches critical acclaim? Or is it a matter of our dissatisfaction with Sonic Team refusing to be consistent with the franchise that keeps us from putting a good amount of faith in their "progress?"

I wasn't exactly following Transformed much after Mario Kart 8 came out though, so I'm happy to hear people think so highly of it.

Big shoes are hard to fill, but they never got away from several poor choices made way back in the day about what a Sonic game would be going forward. It's the sorts of things I used to talk about so much around here that at one point I had the most posts of any non staff member, but for obvious reasons it wasn't helping anything, the most effect I could reasonably have was telling people to stop enjoying certain games, nothing to gain from that, but I seem to have fallen back into two old habits at once, might as well make it a hat trick and link to Sonic Science again.  Really, until they (where "they" is whoever is making official Sonic games) stop falling into these old traps, they're spinning their wheels, regardless of technical proficiency or production values.  

 

[NoirSuede]

To be honest, everyone would bash Sonic regardless unless Sonic Team can somehow make a Sonic game that's a shining beacon of game design like Galaxy 2 and Half-Life 2.

[PKGaming]

I think it's impossible for the general gaming audience to view Sonic as anything other than a bad series at this point. There are even a growing amount of people saying Sonic was never good to begin with, that even the Genesis games were badly designed. I don't think there's anything that can save Sonic. At best, Sonic Team could release a good Sonic game that'll make a fair number of Sonic fans happy while the rest of the gaming audience sees that it's Sonic and automatically think it's bad. They'll watch some gameplay with the mindset that it's bad and unconsciously nitpick at things they don't like in what they see while completely ignoring what the game does right.

Edited July 22, 2015 by PKGaming