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Police Brutality Thread


CrownSlayer’s Shadow
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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
28 minutes ago, Your Vest Friend said:

I'm surprised you didn't hear it about it considering it's the reason TSSZ is dead now.

Oh wait? THAT Tristan? I think I remember glimpses of the happy day they got shut down, but refresh my memory, all the same.

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Your Vest Friend
6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Oh wait? THAT Tristan? I think I remember glimpses of the happy day they got shut down, but refresh my memory, all the same.

In a nutshell, TSSZ was reporting on the events going on with the BLM protests back in May, people were saying it wasn't appropriate for a Sonic news site to cover that, Tristian justified it by comparing the BLM stuff to Sonic's initial detainment in SA2 and the plot of Sonic Forces. The backlash to that was so immense Tristian decided to end the site for good.

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Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon
1 minute ago, Your Vest Friend said:

In a nutshell, TSSZ was reporting on the events going on with the BLM protests back in May, people were saying it wasn't appropriate for a Sonic news site to cover that, Tristian justified it by comparing the BLM stuff to Sonic's initial detainment in SA2 and the plot of Sonic Forces.

Y'know, much as I don't mind covering BLM protests,  that is some of the worst justification I've heard this side of a Kindergarten. 

Though that was seriously what got them shut down?

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On 12/3/2020 at 3:10 PM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The police are a civilian law enforcement team.

Right now they just have too many of them drunk on power thinking they’re free of the consequences of their actions.

What we need is reform, not a dismantling of the police.

 

USA police officers are legally anything but civilians. They get away with murder all the time because they practically have military status or at least desperately want it!

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8 hours ago, Tornado said:

A lot of media did what? Make commentary about militarized police forces before they became a commonplace sight? Every podunk town with more cows than people didn't start getting AR15s and decommissioned Army equipment and piles of federal funding to vaguely fight TERROR until after 9/11.

 

Sonic Adventure 2, a game that prominently features a fictionalized UN peacekeeping force (meaning not police) that had so much thought put into it's real life allegorical comparisons that they fly prisoners around in Soviet attack helicopters, does not feature a critique on a militarized police force. Maybe you could argue it was some kind of nebulous US policy stand-in since the main government in the series is basically the US, but it was about ten years too late/2 years too early for it to really fit as a Team America style pastiche either. Sonic Adventure 2, a game that came out in June of 2001, also notably preceded 9/11.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This take is even worse than what Tristan did a few months ago. It's as bad a take about real life politics as when someone on this forum claimed that Shadow's experiences in the series is similar to that of minorities in the US and thus if you don't like him you're racist.

1. They were common in many areas before 9/11. School history doesn't teach those incidents.

2. SA2 isn't a good example of this but there are others that were from earlier on, maybe more 90s when it was relevant. Sitcoms, cartoons, etc.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow
13 hours ago, KnuxDLX said:

USA police officers are legally anything but civilians. They get away with murder all the time because they practically have military status or at least desperately want it!

Really doesn’t change the point of what they’re supposed to be—they’re a civilian law enforcement team. That’s their job.

And them going around with militarized weapons and using excessive force like they have military status is part of why we should think of reform, because we don’t pay them to be military.

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14 hours ago, Angyu said:

1. They were common in many areas before 9/11. School history doesn't teach those incidents.

"It definitely was all over the place like it is now, but I'm not going to provide any further context or information."

 

 

 

 

Police departments having SWAT teams is not the same thing. The federal government funneling money and equipment into police departments for the War on Drugs, while similar in concept, was not the same thing (there were also significantly more restrictions on things then, as well as actual oversight regarding who was allowed to have what). That the 1033 program being so thoroughly abused now was originally established in 1997 is also not a smoking gun. You can also easily tell this is the case when a lot of the more blatantly unnecessary things that act as community lightning rods, like when university rent-a-cops are given anti-mine vehicles and small towns get federal grants to buy APCs to protect pumpkin festivals, is involving equipment that was first developed and procured during the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq and has been dumped on the civilian market as US involvement in those areas has drawn down; plus the fact that by the late 1990s the US military branches didn't have that much stuff sitting going unused to begin with to give away to police agencies as borne out by how underequipped they all were during the start of Operation Enduring Freedom.

 

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2. SA2 isn't a good example of this but there are others that were from earlier on, maybe more 90s when it was relevant. Sitcoms, cartoons, etc.

"Other stuff definitely showed it, but I'm not going to provide any examples."

 

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is that regardless of military transfer programs existed prior to 9/11, regardless of if police forces had access to military hardware prior to 9/11, and regardless of if the War on Drugs was an initial catalyst for even rinky dink towns in Florida to get a crate of M16s that they probably never used; 9/11 was the catalyst for the situation we are in now. Billions of dollars were dumped each year into police departments under the guise of fighting terrorism following 9/11, proportionately moreso in places where the only thing people do all year is grow corn that needed none of the money at all; and that was even before the federal government started just giving police departments basically anything they wanted because the military didn't need them anymore after mostly pulling out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

9/11 is the reason cities that would struggle to fill a hockey stadium have Humvees and MRAPS.

9/11 is the reason that the slightest mention of an armed suspect could have the entire police force respond in tactical gear and fatigues.

9/11 is the reason that there's so little accountability over who actually gets and needs what that the GAO was able to get over a million dollars in weapons and equipment by providing a fake police department with a parking lot as an address in their procurement request.

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5 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Really doesn’t change the point of what they’re supposed to be—they’re a civilian law enforcement team. That’s their job.

And them going around with militarized weapons and using excessive force like they have military status is part of why we should think of reform, because we don’t pay them to be military.


Yes, you are right that they are typically defined as civilians.

 

What I was referring to is their special protected status and practical immunity from all laws. This legal concept is called “qualified immunity,” but its practical effect has been allowing police officers to act with absolute impunity with no consequences.

 

I guess the real problem is that I don’t feel like the police are civilians. I should be able to trust them to do their job without worrying that they’ll do something wrong and then never have to answer for it. But I can’t trust them because they’re protected by a legal and judicial shroud. 
 

It’s messed up. The direction of most police departments is definitely heading in a military direction. The worst part is the radical agenda of police to enforce authoritarianism and fascism in the United States. They increasingly exist to quell dissent against their ideas, as evidenced by multiple examples of police brutality against peaceful protesters this year.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/06/police-violence-protests-us-george-floyd

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/29/us-police-brutality-protest


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_violence_incidents_during_George_Floyd_protests

 

It is then the responsibility of the victims to identify the officers, their departments, file internal investigations, file lawsuits, and literally pay money to get justice. It’s kind of the most messed up thing ever. These people are enforcing the law? Yeah, okay...

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  • 4 months later...
Tornado

Chauvin was just convicted on all three counts he was charged with. 2nd degree murder, 3rd degree murder and manslaughter.

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Shaddy Zaphod

Now comes the years of hearing how because Chauvin was convicted, that proves the system works and all the bad cops are gone.

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This shouldn't have happened in the first place. And I'm almost certain this wouldn't have happened if it wasn't caught on Camera.

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White liberal/socdem officials are seriously making massive asses of themselves right now 
 

It’s incredibly annoying how it took this fucking long, but it’s nice to finally see this fucker receive punishment over this. But this shit isn’t suddenly over now, so really not looking forward to seeing people get going to brunch again on this subject 

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It’s so frustrating seeing people acting like racism is over just because Chauvin was convicted. Police brutality and systemic racism has been a problem long before George Floyd and will be a problem long after unless something is done about it.

That said, I’m glad that justice has been served for once.

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I really don’t know who needs to hear this, and I may be venting a little, but no, it isn’t the only fucking solution to shoot and kill a 15 year old that called the cops, because she’s getting jumped, because she had a knife in her hand for self defense. Jesus Christ, I hate how people are trying to spin this as the cop being in the right, that he’s a hero for saving those two, and how there simply was nothing else he could have done. These people jumped at the opportunity to support a cop, and it’s really obvious that’s the case since this happened on the same day as the Chauvin guilty ruling. 
 

This shit is exhausting, it wasn’t even a day before America had to make it clear the Chauvin trial was meaningless overall in the grand scheme of things. 
 

And this is before we potentially start seeing more aggressive cops lash out in response to that ruling....

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24 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I really don’t know who needs to hear this, and I may be venting a little, but no, it isn’t the only fucking solution to shoot and kill a 15 year old that called the cops, because she’s getting jumped, because she had a knife in her hand for self defense. Jesus Christ, I hate how people are trying to spin this as the cop being in the right, that he’s a hero for saving those two, and how there simply was nothing else he could have done. These people jumped at the opportunity to support a cop, and it’s really obvious that’s the case since this happened on the same day as the Chauvin guilty ruling. 
 

This shit is exhausting, it wasn’t even a day before America had to make it clear the Chauvin trial was meaningless overall in the grand scheme of things. 
 

And this is before we potentially start seeing more aggressive cops lash out in response to that ruling....

Too true. Chauvin being ruled guilty still has absolutely no bearing on the fact that we endorse a police force which explicitly goes out of its way to train officers to be as paranoid and trigger-happy as possible. So many people have died because we have police trained to expect that any person they come across is planning to kill them, not even mentioning the overt racism in many departments. 

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If she’s the one that placed the call, it still would classify as self defense I’d say. From what I’ve heard she was still being jumped?
 

Still even with that in mind, she’s still a 15 year old girl, it’s ridiculous this cop couldn’t think of anything else outside shooting multiple times a kid and killing her to de-escalate the situation. Like hell, use a taser, a 65% success rate I’d still argue is a good chance of effectively stopping her, subdue her, if it puts your life at risk, that’s a risk you signed up for as a cop. Hell, shoot the dirt or something, these are kids, so odds are that’ll startle them. If you need to shoot them, shoot once in like the arm or leg. Still fucked up, but at least you aren’t murdering a child. In any of these options, I find it a hard sell to claim they wouldn’t work and that she’d still stab these girls to death, or that the girls wouldn’t have a opportunity to run away. Like, we’ve seen cops frequently have no problem de escalating high stakes situations when it’s white people we’re talking about (or even congratulating them for their violent crime, see rittenhouse where they just let him do his shit and then walk back over to them) So, it’s certainly perplexing that when it’s marginalized, often black, groups these cops loose all sense of training, and get trigger happy, and can’t think of anything else to do. It’s understandable that a 15 year old girl freaked out mentally after being possibly jumped would maybe not hear the cop or have a fight or flight reaction, but cops are, allegedly, trained to not do that or feel that shit in high stakes moment , so if they still can’t think of ways to de-escalate this non-violently, or aren’t willing to put their own life at risk, they shouldn’t be out in the field imo.

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Tornado
11 hours ago, KHCast said:

If she’s the one that placed the call, it still would classify as self defense I’d say.

That's completely irrelevant. Zimmerman called the police first too. Zimmerman also lived in a state with a wonky Castle Doctrine law (Ohio having just gotten a shiny new one at the beginning of this month). Did you insist that was self-defense at the time, even though it likely actually was?

 

 

Bryant came out of the house with a knife, or was given a knife as she approached the other girls. She closed the distance between the first person she attacked as the officer was getting out of his car. As soon as the officer approached, she lunged at the other girl with it. None of that is self-defense; and while perhaps the argument could be about Stand Your Ground laws once again leading to someone dying unnecessarily, I suspect that the argument for why they are viewed as problematic/racist isn't because they only allow white people to kill black people on their driveway after police have arrived on scene without the police intervening.

 

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From what I’ve heard she was still being jumped?

By who? We don't have the full context of what happened before the police were called or Bryant's role in what was going on/what happened to her before she called the cops; and AFAIK there hasn't been a video of it released even though it most certainly exists.

 

 

But we do have a video that starts a few seconds before the officer arrived on scene, from an angle that shows way more than what his bodycam did. We are able to actually see that she was a good twenty yards from the people that she attacked when the video starts, likely even inside the house. She either came out with the knife in hand or given it by the guy in the hoodie. Certainly neither of the people that she tried to stab were jumping her when the police showed up, or were involved in any active confrontation with her. The first person she attacked was even actively moving away from her as Bryant was walking towards her.

 

11 hours ago, KHCast said:

Still even with that in mind, she’s still a 15 year old girl,

So? Is there some special version of a knife that doesn't make it a deadly weapon when wielded by a minor to attack someone? Is there a special rule on the books that says you can attack someone with a knife in front of police officers if you're a minor and called them beforehand about it? Did she have some sort of flashing sign that noted that she was only 15 and was the one who called them in the first place that the police should have seen before responding?

 

 

That perhaps makes the situation more tragic, but it doesn't change anything regarding the officer's response; nor does the fact that she was the one who called the police.

 

11 hours ago, KHCast said:

Still even with that in mind, she’s still a 15 year old girl, it’s ridiculous this cop couldn’t think of anything else outside shooting multiple times a kid and killing her to de-escalate the situation.

She immediately started committing attempted murder in front of a police officer. After he attempted to grab her from the first act, she got away from him and ran towards another person and did it again.

 

 

Now, I will note that a taser might have been a better choice for the situation, but:

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Hell, shoot the dirt or something, these are kids, so odds are that’ll startle them. If you need to shoot them, shoot once in like the arm or leg.

This is patently absurd. Shooting the dirt is going to stop someone mid-stabbing motion? Shooting someone in the arm or leg (which no one is ever trained to do in any firearms class anywhere because it's extremely difficult to do) is going to accomplish anything other than hitting the person Bryant was trying to stab, upon which they will be stabbed anyway as well? Or you hit the correct person in the moving limb, at which point they continue to stab the other person anyway?

 

Again, I'll allow that a taser might have been the better option in the circumstance showed, but shooting someone in a limb is dumb Hollywood fantasy that wouldn't have stopped what the officer was trying to stop Bryant from doing even if he had hit her and only her.

 

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Like, we’ve seen cops frequently have no problem de escalating high stakes situations when it’s white people we’re talking about (or even congratulating them for their violent crime, see rittenhouse where they just let him do his shit and then walk back over to them)

The cops who gave Rittenhouse a handjob for what he did at that protest aren't the cops who showed up on the scene of a fight in after being called for it and immediately saw someone attacking someone else with a knife. Like with the Castle Doctrine laws, I'm pretty sure that the outrage with the response Rittenhouse got from police after murdering people at a protest isn't that everyone also wants black people to get a slap on the wrist for murdering people.

 

 

Not all examples police killing suspects are Eric Garner or George Floyd. Not all examples of police shooting suspects are like Jacob Blake, where half a dozen guys just stood around waiting for an excuse to shoot him instead of even trying to physically restrain him from leaving before things got to that poine. Desperately clinging to the notion that they always are anyway, and that police responding to situations by opening fire are always acting in the wrong, is no more helpful to the discussion than when people insist that the system can't be racist because #alllivesmatter #bluelivesmatter. This is a tragic escalation of violence that led to someone losing her life, but it wasn't the police who escalated it to a deadly situation. It was the person who, upon seeing police roll up at her house after having called them, decided that trying to stab two people in front of them was the correct option.

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Edit:  Actually, I don’t want to get into this with you, so I’m just going to agree to disagree on some of your points. 

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McGroose

@Tornado Your post was excellent.

Once she got away from the police and showed clear intent to harm someone else, critical decisions have to be made in seconds, and words were going to be insufficient. With the exception of having recommended a taser be used in this situation instead, which even then is not a guaranteed means of subduing the individual quickly enough (rare, but it happens) when all you have are seconds, most of the advice/alternatives people have proposed the cop should try instead were all incredibly dumb. It shows how people have both unrealistic expectations of what a cop, even one highly trained and not one of the 'bad' ones can do. They also reveal how people have no idea how easy it is to kill a person and/or how firearms work. 

A shot to the leg could certainly neutralize the threat rather than immediately kill the target upon impact, but death could still be imminent depending on the specific area of the leg penetrated. The medics better get there blazing fast otherwise it's too late. A stab wound can also immediately kill someone depending on where it hits... duh, so your timing under that pressure is extremely limited and you need to be incredibly quick-thinking. A 15 year old isn't a toddler, they're just as dangerous as a fully grown adult when wielding a knife when provoked and the threat is just as real. The cop may only have one shot to use in time, they absolutely cannot afford to risk missing or using it inactively. It's apparently believed that cops have the ability to use bullet-time and easily select their targets limbs like in Fallout or some ridiculous shit like that. Stop believing that it's super easy for anyone trained with a firearm to aim these types shots - it's not. 

Both missing a shot that was clearly intended to serve as a warning and missing an actual shot intended to land on the suspect will likely have the same anticipated effect, it's not going to make anyone back down. Warning shots are a terrible idea and almost never work, they'll almost certainly only escalate the situation even more, especially if the suspect clearly shows indifference to the cop's presence in the first place. Shots fired in the air will always eventually land somewhere and can still cause damage when falling. Shots fired in the ground have a chance to ricochet in another direction, even when shot at dirt because of rocks or other materials beneath the dirt hard enough to deflect the bullet. Every single bullet fired and it's impact is the responsibility of the one who shot it. Finally, like Tornado said, shooting a warning shot probably isn't going to stop someone mid-stabbing motion.

These alternatives all basically boil down to demanding all cops have the same marksmanship as John Wick while insisting that bullet impact is about as realistic as a video game. It's absurd that anything less than that is considered not good enough. We're on agreement with the taser, but the rest of this stuff, where on Earth are you all getting all this flawed logic from? This specific incident is not comparable to the previous examples of police brutality seen throughout the nation. I'm worried that we're starting to set a dangerous precedent of immediately categorizing any instance of police using their firearm as a form of police brutality if it results in a fatality, which is highly likely to happen because of how a damn gun works. 

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