Jump to content
CrownSlayer’s Shadow

Police Brutality Thread

Recommended Posts

So basically Diesel also believes that if you've been arrested in the past for anything, if the cops come for you and kill you then your death is perfectly warranted. I should probably tell my mom to keep aside a little windfall for another funeral considering my brother went to a county jail for not paying a ticket. Dangerous animal, he is.

Edit: And in a coincidental follow-up, apparently a Ferguson judge has ordered all arrest warrants from before December 2014 to be withdrawn. Which is good because it's a fucking travesty to get a warrant over minor traffic citations, particularly with shit like this.

Edited by Nepenthe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eric Garner's death was caught on video, where he clearly and audibly told officers he couldn't breath, and they continued to chokehold him anyway. I don't care if what Garner was doing was illegal. It didn't warrant that kind of physical overreaction, nor did it warrant them ignoring his desperate pleas for air.

Garner was unambiguously killed through the police's brutality and subsequent criminal negligence. That he committed an illegal (but more importantly non-dangerous) act beforehand is not a justification for that. 

And I'm not even insinuating that it was. My point is that unless you have a heavy criminal record that would play a role in the police suspecting you of committing another crime, you are probably not going to end up like Eric Garner. Believing that you could easily up like Garner for simply being "tall and black" is ridiculous, because that's not even why the police came after Garner in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So now you're saying race has absolutely nothing to do with how the police treat certain people they interact with, and instead you just need a "heavy criminal record," none of which has anything to do with why Garner died. I suggest you just stop. You literally don't know shit about the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So now you're saying race has absolutely nothing to do with how the police treat certain people they interact with, and instead you just need a "heavy criminal record," none of which has anything to do with why Garner died.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. Obviously race does have to do with how police treat certain people they interact with, but that doesn't apply to Eric Garner. The police didn't come for him because he was black; they came for him because he was a suspect. And the reason why he was a suspect wasn't because he was black; it largely had to do with his criminal record. Garner's record definitely has to do with why he died; his record helped make him a suspect, which is why the police came after him. Race was not involved in this case.

If you think one can easily end up being killed by the police for simply being "tall and black", then actually use examples of someone who the police came after for that reason. Michael Brown and Eric Garner can't be used to make such an argument, because being "tall and black" isn't why the police came after them.

Edited by Diesel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But here's the point.

Say you're pulled over for a minor infraction: Speeding, an expired license tag, something standard. If you're a black person, you have a much higher chance of this situation going badly and the police treating you improperly. Does it always happen? No. Does it usually happen? No, I'll give you that. But it happens with far greater frequency to black people, and that's the problem. A black person shouldn't have to fear interacting with police. But these incidents keep giving them reason to.

Those kids at their pool party weren't slammed to the ground for having a heavy criminal record. They were manhandled because they were black in a neighborhood where that made some of the neighbors uncomfortable. That is a realistic and tragic concern, and that is why we have to fight this by spreading awareness and challenging the institutions that perpetuate these practices.

OK, but none of this applies to Michael Brown or Eric Garner. Those two can't be used to make this kind of argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mechano gets it. The frequency with which people are targeted and killed by police is heavily biased against racial minorities even when controlled for other variables like wealth, the crime being committed, and prior offenses meaning, yes, a white dude selling loose joints has a higher chance of being given the Andy Griffith treatment and being allowed to go home alive than a black, Hispanic, or Native person does. You can look the actual statistics up yourself. I'm not about to sit here and spoonfeed you the ins and outs of subconscious prejudice like a child, not after you proved you had the gusto to actually use Wikipedia on your own in order to try and prove to everyone that Michael Brown deserved to die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like how I pointed out explicit racism is well-documented, as is more casual racist thought ("I'm friends with some blacks but I'm on my guard against them by default" for example), but it's not a reasonable assumption these thoughts - held by I'd wager at least half the white populace - couldn't possibly inform the actions of a white force.

 

It isn't just racism either. There's an overall culture of "the cops are always right" in the United States. The police actively defend their own; as we can see with the Wilson case, though he looks to in fact be innocent, it doesn't look good they were basically doing what they could to rush the case through court. "An innocent man never runs," right? It doesn't go over well with the population when he isn't given an actual trial. He's a white male, he'd do just fine in a trial.

 

People, black, white, or otherwise, have plenty of reason not to trust the police as a whole. Even if the majority of the time encounters with the police won't end in violations of civil rights, there's a wealth of evidence to suggest racism and brutality are still a serious issue. It isn't unreasonable a whole chunk of Americans instantly sided against Wilson regardless of any innocence, because there's so much widespread abuse even the most virtuous officers can't have the benefit of the doubt anymore.

 

Consider mass shootings in the United States. Are they not an issue? They happen literally every single day (at least this year), though the vast majority of people aren't affected. Are we going to state it's still not a clear problem in America?

Edited by Ty the Tasmanian Ogilvie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mechano gets it. The frequency with which people are targeted and killed by police is heavily biased against racial minorities even when controlled for other variables like wealth, the crime being committed, and prior offenses meaning, yes, a white dude selling loose joints has a higher chance of being given the Andy Griffith treatment and being allowed to go home alive than a black, Hispanic, or Native person does. You can look the actual statistics up yourself. 

And I'm not denying the statistics. Literally all I said was that one can't use Michael Brown or Eric Garner to argue that being "tall and black" makes one more likely to be killed by the police, as that's not why those two were killed at all.

I'm not about to sit here and spoonfeed you the ins and outs of subconscious prejudice like a child, not after you proved you had the gusto to actually use Wikipedia on your own in order to try and prove to everyone that Michael Brown deserved to die.

The information I pulled up from Wikipedia is backed with citations and sources.

And I never said Brown deserved to die. Wilson just did nothing wrong by shooting him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are denying the statistics because you continue to imply that Eric Garner had the exact same chance of dying even if he was white by focusing continuously on the irrelevancy of his criminal past to the actual act of being choked out. It's ignorant thinking at best and outright racism at worst.

And you're not saying anyone deserved to die?

 Don't criticize the police for shooting; criticize the attackers. If the attackers didn't attack in the first place, they wouldn't have been shot.

"If you do something wrong, well, you're asking for it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are denying the statistics because you continue to imply that Eric Garner had the exact same chance of dying if his only difference being that he was white. It's ignorant thinking at best and outright racism at worst.

That's not denying the statistics at all. Race simply had nothing to do with Garner's death.

And you're not saying anyone deserved to die?

"If you do something wrong, well, you're asking for it."

If you assault a police officer, then you are definitely asking to be shot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And I'm not denying the statistics. Literally all I said was that one can't use Michael Brown or Eric Garner to argue that being "tall and black" makes one more likely to be killed by the police, as that's not why those two were killed at all.

You missed the part where a great deal, if not most, white Americans have explicit or casual racist views.

A black person is inherently seen as more of a threat by the subconscious. The media, pop culture, statistics, and realities beyond blacks' control have all worked to create the idea they are more violent by nature, rather than it simply being coincidence. Even the most well-meaning officer is going to have this sort of prejudice informing their behavior.

Of course you'll probably see more black gangsters than white. Blacks generally don't have the same opportunities whites do. Gang membership is more appealing to the average black youth than their white counterpart. They have less opportunities and they have less methods to avoid entry. Like having both parents, something they're systematically denied by the hardline approach to law enforcement. But a lot of people still make the subconscious connection that black crime rates exist for genetic, rather than sociological, reasons.

What's more? Despite the law and order mantra that gangs are evil organizations, almost all of them originated as a way to protect their ethnic community against whites or other groups, because the white government honestly didn't give a damn. Why, that's even how the Mafia, the most famous of all organized crime groups, started: a community defense force in Sicily.

Edited by Ty the Tasmanian Ogilvie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So once again, you literally don't know anything about the actual nuance of the issue and are ultimately just here to reinforce racist pro-police narratives.

Keep telling yourself that.

You missed the part where a great deal, if not most, white Americans have explicit or casual racist views.

A black person is inherently seen as more of a threat by the subconscious. The media, pop culture, statistics, and realities beyond blacks' control have all worked to create the idea they are more violent by nature, rather than it simply being coincidence.

Of course you'll probably see more black gangsters than white. Blacks generally don't have the same opportunities whites do. Gang membership is more tempting that way.

What's more? Despite the law and order mantra that gangs are evil organizations, almost all of them originated as a way to protect their ethnic community against whites or other groups, because the white government honestly didn't give a damn. Why, that's even how the Mafia, the most famous of all organized crime groups, started: a community defense force in Sicily.

I'm not denying any of this. This just has nothing to do with Michael Brown or Eric Garner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

That's not denying the statistics at all. Race simply had nothing to do with Garner's death.

Race had nothing to do the fact that a black man--who, though he was committing an illegal act, was otherwise harmless at the time--was forcibly held down by policeman to the point where he died of asphyxiation, even though he was making it clear to those officers that he was dying? You can really see this exact same scenario playing out if Eric Garner was white?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, but none of this applies to Michael Brown or Eric Garner. Those two can't be used to make this kind of argument.

It applies to the problem of police brutality towards black people in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Race had nothing to do the fact that a black man--who, though he was committing an illegal act, was otherwise harmless at the time--was forcibly held down by policeman to the point where he died of asphyxiation, even though he was making it clear to those officers that he was dying? You can really see this exact same scenario playing out if Eric Garner was white?

Yes. Race had nothing to do with Garner's murder. He had a heavy record, which helped make him a suspect. He could have been any other race and it would make no difference. Police don't just arrest black people for selling untaxed cigarettes.

And the reason the police held him down was because he was resisting arrest. If you resist arrest, then the police will use more force in arresting you. That isn't to say the police should have used as much force as they did or that they were right in ignoring Garner saying that he couldn't breathe, but that still is why they used force in arresting him.

It applies to the problem of police brutality towards black people in general.

No, because being black wasn't why the police came after them at all. Assault a police officer, and you get shot. Sell untaxed cigarettes, and you get arrested. Resist arrest, and the police hold you down. Race was not a factor in these cases.

Edited by Diesel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not denying any of this. This just has nothing to do with Michael Brown or Eric Garner.

And?

This topic really isn't about them anymore. It looks for the most part most have moved onto the general subject of police brutality and how there's a clear skewing of it along racial lines.

What you are denying is that a black man looking physically imposing would make him more of a target. Which it absolutely will - from most sinister to most saintly, police as a whole are inherently more suspicious of black people. A suspect who looks like more of a threat will be even moreso. Being tall or otherwise large is imposing on its own. Being black on top of it will drastically increase chances of being a suspect or being seen as a threat.

I mean, we saw this with Wilson's testimony. He was terrified given Brown's size by comparison. Any rational person would be. But combined with Brown's skin color, Wilson would have even more reason to be afraid, because that lingering bias that blacks need to be treated with more caution than other groups.

You are likewise writing off human lives the moment they show even the slightest hint of violence. "An officer has to protect themselves." Sure, nobody's denying that. But this is why the concept of proportionate response exists. If you threw a ball at me, wouldn't it seem odd for me to pull out a gun and shoot you, regardless of how much it hurt? Never mind, the definition of "assault" is fairly broad; glitterbomb counts as assault, even. I'm not seeing a problem in holding police to a higher standard of conduct that they will try to resolve conflicts peacefully.

"It will never work." But it does. Just recently there was an armed standoff between armed white citizens and law enforcement here in Nevada. No one was hurt. The police ended up giving up on the issue and left. Had blacks done that, it probably would have been a bloodbath. We see the same theme in Europe: an officer doesn't have to shoot every single person who is threatening in some manner, only those who are lethal and there's no other recourse.

And there are other methods to neutralize dangerous suspects. Whatever happened to tasers? Bean bag guns? Backup? Maybe all police don't have access to these, but that to me is an argument for federal funding of non or less lethal ways of subduing suspects, not an argument to give them a blank check to kill people.

Edited by Ty the Tasmanian Ogilvie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. Race had nothing to do with Garner's murder. He had a heavy record, which helped make him a suspect. He could have been any other race and it would make no difference.

Now you're just kidding yourself. You seriously think that if Garner was white, the cops would've still held him down and choked him to death?

 

No, because being black wasn't why the police came after them at all.

The point is that the police would not have handled the situation the way they did if the "offenders" were white.

Edited by Kaoru Akimotobug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now you're just kidding yourself. You seriously think that if Garner was white, the cops would've still held him down and choked him to death?

Well in fairness, I wouldn't put it past them. I mean, when even old women are getting tazered...

I won't deny that it's more likely with blacks than whites, though.

Edited by Ty the Tasmanian Ogilvie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep telling yourself that.

The overwhelming majority of the time you've spent in this thread has been trying to convince us of the faults of dead people and ignoring the factor of race in specific incidences, which happened after you claimed your precious sensibilities were offended because black people don't give the police as an institution the benefit of the doubt the way you do. It's textbook diet racism, so the longer you keep going in on this ignoring the calls to actually discuss the more pertinent issue of this thread the more you dig your hole. So again, do you care more about the quality of life of minorities or do you care about reminding us not all cops? It's a simple question to answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well in fairness, I wouldn't put it past them. I mean, when even old women are getting tazered...

I won't deny that it's more likely with blacks than whites, though.

Even so, the fact that his death would've been less likely if he was white speaks volumes.

Edited by Kaoru Akimotobug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even as a white person I'm still nervous about the police. There's enough serious issues going on that even with lower odds of problems, I still am not entirely comfortable. The overall trend is for law enforcement to be too trigger happy and courts to be too prison happy. 

I give the benefit of the doubt to police (AND victims) in individual cases (but that's moreso because I don't really make up my mind until a long time after an incident as more information pours out that changes the picture), but as an institution? No way. There's enough abuse that I can't rule out wrongful deaths as one in a million. It has nothing to do with being "anti-cop" or the like.

I've known several police officers. I know they can be awesome people just like you and me. But those are the ones I know personally. I know that there's more than a handful lurking in the wider force, who through malice, lack of training, or something else, are probably going to cause serious harm to someone who really doesn't deserve it.

Harm that could easily be avoided if we took a few simple steps. Intelligent sentencing. More surveillance. Better training on how to resolve crises without use of firearms. Making sure every force is more representative of the population it serves. Kicking out a few media moguls' teeth for not helping this subject.

Even so, the fact that his death would've been less likely if he was white indicates there is a serious racial bias going on.

Well yes, I conceded that.

Edited by Ty the Tasmanian Ogilvie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thinking about it more, sure, race probably was a factor in the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases. The fact that they were black probably affected the way the police handled the situations.

The overwhelming majority of the time you've spent in this thread has been trying to convince us of the faults of dead people and ignoring the factor of race in specific incidences, which happened after you claimed your precious sensibilities were offended because black people don't give the police as an institution the benefit of the doubt the way you do.

No, I was speaking about people in general, not just blacks. Stop deliberately taking my words out of context to make your argument more convenient for yourself.

So again, do you care more about the quality of life of minorities or do you care about reminding us not all cops? It's a simple question to answer.

The former. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.