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Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

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From what I remember, he specifically said that the following "story-arcs" were canon:
The Genesis games (Sonic 1, 2, 3K and CD)
The Adventure-Shadow saga (SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow)
The Riders saga (Riders 1 and 2)
The Rush games (Rush and Rush Adventure)

Beyond that, I can't remember. Special mention for him specifically saying that Chronicles was not canon, especially due to the cliffhanger. It'd be a huge dig, but can someone help source the original quote?

Sega Forums, circa 2008-2009. Good luuuuuuck to ye who attempt it.

As an aside, good luck having Sega ever reference Chronicles again, what with the Penders fiasco that arose from it. I don't think Sega ever wants to touch the "Dark Brotherhood" again.

And it's also likely that Generations itself isn't even canon. Blaze and Silver are mentioned remembering events from Sonic 2006, a game that specifically ended with a "everyone's memory wiped it never happened" ending. Referencing Secret Rings is probably no different from that.

Edited by Indigo Rush

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From what I remember, he specifically said that the following "story-arcs" were canon:
The Genesis games (Sonic 1, 2, 3K and CD)
The Adventure-Shadow saga (SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow)
The Riders saga (Riders 1 and 2)
The Rush games (Rush and Rush Adventure)

Beyond that, I can't remember. Special mention for him specifically saying that Chronicles was not canon, especially due to the cliffhanger. It'd be a huge dig, but can someone help source the original quote?

Sega Forums, circa 2008-2009. Good luuuuuuck to ye who attempt it.

As an aside, good luck having Sega ever reference Chronicles again, what with the Penders fiasco that arose from it. I don't think Sega ever wants to touch the "Dark Brotherhood" again.

And it's also likely that Generations itself isn't even canon. Blaze and Silver are mentioned remembering events from Sonic 2006, a game that specifically ended with a "everyone's memory wiped it never happened" ending. Referencing Secret Rings is probably no different from that.

By ancient lore and powers dark, I've managed to find the original quote:

 

"We've already had this on Bumbleking. "I want someone from SOJ or Bioware otherwise its not real" I've got news for you, good luck finding either on here or on Bumbleking. If SOE/A word isn't good enough for you you're REALLY in the wrong forum! smile.png

Now you can either take the word of the Community Manager who has worked on ever single Sonic related game since Rush Adventure, who knows the standpoint on Chronicles from Japan, has discussed such matters with Sonic Team and coincidentally, has been the only one to actually address this with you guys orrr you can cling on to the belief that the events of Chronicles are somehow now written in stone for all things Sonic.

Its highly likely some points will bleed in to canon, but the only "events" that should realistically be considered current game series canon and defining the story of Sonic's world are those from the main thread of consoles titles post-Sonic Adventure. Even then some of those events that happened within have been retconed over the years to varying degrees.

So to my knowledge the following are concrete as having "happened".

- ARK Incident (50 Years Ago)
- {Events Of Sonic 1-3&K in some form}
- Station Square Incident, Unleashing of Perfect Chaos (SA1)
- Awakening Of Shadow, Fall Of ARK (SA2)
- Return of Metal Sonic and the overthrow of Eggman (Heroes)
- Coming Of The Black Comet and The Black Arms War (ShTH)
- The shattering of the world / Coming of Dark/Light Gaia. (Unleashed)
- The Encounter With The Wisps (Colours)

I hope I've not left anything out... the might change their minds in time. Now, i'm not counting Sonic 4 in this currently as obviously we don't know the full story with that as yet, I think you can probably pencil it in if you like after S&K in that list. Storybook - No. M&S - No. Rush/Rush Adv - You can't really say it is as its the whole future/alternate dimension thing which has already proven to be in flux. Sonic 06 - The events of the game prevented it from ever happening in the first place. Rivals - arguably R2 might be, but you've got the whole future thing with Silver again. Everything I've heard tells me no to both however.

Of course to me I'm quite open to the fact that there are multiple-continuities Original Mobius Story/Modern Earth Continuity/Fleetway/Archie/SatAM/Underground/Sonic X/etc and try not to get hung up on such details about which is the "true" one... "

 

While I don't think that Chronicles will be referenced again for the reasons you say, I don't reckon the cliffhanger would be irreconcilable with current canon if you assume that it leads straight into Sonic Unleashed - that would give a convenient reason for how Eggman built such a massive space fleet and doomsday weapon unopposed, as well as how he was working on his Interstellar Amusment Park for "several years" (i.e. in the time Sonic and co were away in the Twilight Cage).

If they were bright, they could write Shade out of the series by dropping some throwaway line about her going off alone to find her place in the world or something - or even better, say that she's doing timeshare with Knuckles guarding the Master Emerald, giving him a reason for abandoning Angel Island periodically; either reason would mean she could never be seen again and still be in canon technically. The Nocturnus meanwhile shouldn't ever need to return; due to Twilight Cage time dilation, if the war they were left fighting with the other denizens lasts more than a couple of weeks, they won't be seen again for decades if not centuries.

 

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But Chronicles is set a time after their 'final' fight with Eggman, there was a summary that cited two years specifically. If time is in a perpetual state of 'now' thereabouts, the series can never reach there, thus Shade has never met these characters and likely never will. 

The "final" fight is only final from the perspective of the game itself; the protaganists believe Eggman gone, so the characters (and the manual summary) reference it as such. Indeed, Eggman himself survives to cause chaos again, so even within the plot itself it was never the "final" fight. The two year downtime wouldn't necessarily cause problems with the rest of the plot.

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From the context of what he's saying, I'd suggest that the leaker means that Sonic's World is not called "Mobius" but is functionally equivalent to the concept (i.e. a world of primarily non-humans), occupying a similar position relative to Earth in Sonic's universe as Mars is to Earth in ours.

Interesting.  Okay, let's take a look: "Also, when making a game, you have to choose to either set it in Sonic's world (without people) or on "Earth" (with people.) Mobius is an official thing in Sonic's universe, but it is not the name of the world itself. It's actually the Sonic universe's equivalent to Mars."  So when he says "Mobius," your suggestion is that we read that as "the idea of Mobius, a Sonic & anthros planet," so the result of his statement is essentially "Mobius exists but isn't called Mobius, and it's the same distance from Earth as Mars is from us."  Okay, sure, I'll buy that.

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Yes, my position is that I don't know the entire contents of the Bible nor any other documentation Sonic Team has on gameplay in their office. Therefore, the only correct conclusion to draw from this Bible is not proof of any stance they have concerning gameplay, positive or negative. There is nothing to draw from at this point in time given what we know.

You on the other hand are using your admitted ignorance to posit an assertion Sonic Team doesn't care about the gameplay. It's completely irrational and yet you're prancing across this topic acting like you've got them all figured out.

Then why do you bother with this thread which is %99.9 percent speculation (the remaining percentage being "Oh, Sonic is from Mars")? Don't single me out because you personally don't like the idea that Sonic Team may not have established rules for gameplay mechanics (which is a very high probability based on the games themselves). 

I think you're really reading too much into the idea of a "Bible" here. It doesn't mean that this document is the end-all-be-all of everthing Sonic, it's just a term for a document covering the non-gameplay elements of a franchise, no more, no less. You might as well try to argue that the actual Bible devalues science because it doesn't have sections devoted to the mechanics of Newtonian physics.

Don't pretend as though "Bible" isn't synonymous with end all be all book of law. Yeah, if they didn't call it a "bible" and instead called it "Character design documents" or "Sonic Story guide" then yeah, it wouldn't affect much but they didn't.

Somewhat related note: Currently watching "The Last Temptation of Christ". Good flick.

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Technically, there's nothing that says that's what they even officially call it. That's a common term used with universes handled by multiple different people and teams. 

Probably but it's in the thread title. That's enough for me to treat it as such.

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Then why do you bother with this thread which is %99.9 percent speculation (the remaining percentage being "Oh, Sonic is from Mars")? Don't single me out because you personally don't like the idea that Sonic Team may not have established rules for gameplay mechanics (which is a very high probability based on the games themselves). 

We're speculating on the ramifications of information Sega has given us. The reason I'm singling you out is because you're making a value judgement about Sonic Team's commitment to gameplay on the basis of something Sega didn't give us, e.g., literally nothing. Seriously; you're just making shit up.

This topic is people saying "We thought A leads to B, but Sega said A leads to C, therefore let's try to reconcile how C instead of B is even possible." You're saying "No wonder Sega is bad at X. No one leaked details of X. Therefore X simply doesn't exist." Even if you're just "speculating" (obvious back peddling), the logic upon which you're doing so is still bat-shittingly faulty.

There's more obvious ways to beat the dead horse of "Sonic Team is confused about the gameplay direction" than this. Go in any of the Sonic's future threads and piss about there. And that isn't a friendly suggestion; it's a staff warning.

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From what I remember, he specifically said that the following "story-arcs" were canon:
The Genesis games (Sonic 1, 2, 3K and CD)
The Adventure-Shadow saga (SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow)
The Riders saga (Riders 1 and 2)
The Rush games (Rush and Rush Adventure)

Beyond that, I can't remember. Special mention for him specifically saying that Chronicles was not canon, especially due to the cliffhanger. It'd be a huge dig, but can someone help source the original quote?

Sega Forums, circa 2008-2009. Good luuuuuuck to ye who attempt it.

As an aside, good luck having Sega ever reference Chronicles again, what with the Penders fiasco that arose from it. I don't think Sega ever wants to touch the "Dark Brotherhood" again.

And it's also likely that Generations itself isn't even canon. Blaze and Silver are mentioned remembering events from Sonic 2006, a game that specifically ended with a "everyone's memory wiped it never happened" ending. Referencing Secret Rings is probably no different from that.

The Advances and Battle are slightly peripherial to the Adventure Era. Advance 2 has Sonic meeting Cream for the first time, and the game was released before Heroes.

The Rivals were confirmed canon by Iizuka himself, that much is true.

Generations has more information on canon than previous games, actually. People love to imply it's not canon because it's an "anniversary celebration game".

 

Lately I've been thinking on remaking and tweaking my thread on the canon, including this recent "two worlds" confusion. http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/18890-the-sonic-canon-as-it-was-until-recently/

What do you think? Good idea for me to try and tweak on this?

 

PS: About this "bible" (It's actually a Lore Guideline in my opinion, not a bible. Saying something like "Bible" for this case sounds like a blasphemy). I think it has become quite useless to discuss about it, because it has opened even more holes (most than any crap we've ever seen in years) on Sonic's lore. I think we can't trust SEGA anymore to deal with Sonic in my opinion, and the lore isn't the only reason. I mean, the Sonic Boom disaster that they're still trying to push through our throats, their inability to make things right on purpose (I'm talking about SEGA and Sonic Team as a whole on this point)... And I'm not sure anymore if it's up to the fanbase to fix that mess.

We work our minds out on shit and all, to the point of exhaustion, but y'know what, at the end of the day, we're not there. Things never are as we wanted it to be. And Sonic Team doesn't even know that people like us, who actually try to work on fixing THEIR mess, do exist.

Edited by ZDozer

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PS: About this "bible" (It's actually a Lore Guideline in my opinion, not a bible. Saying something like "Bible" for this case sounds like a blasphemy). I think it has become quite useless to discuss about it, because it has opened even more holes (most than any crap we've ever seen in years) on Sonic's lore. I think we can't trust SEGA anymore to deal with Sonic in my opinion, and the lore isn't the only reason. I mean, the Sonic Boom disaster that they're still trying to push through our throats, their inability to make things right on purpose (I'm talking about SEGA and Sonic Team as a whole on this point)... And I'm not sure anymore if it's up to the fanbase to fix that mess.

We work our minds out on shit and all, to the point of exhaustion, but y'know what, at the end of the day, we're not there. Things never are as we wanted it to be. And Sonic Team doesn't even know that people like us, who actually try to work on fixing THEIR mess, do exist.

Pretty sure that it would be calling it the Holy Bible that would be blasphemy; a "bible" is just a term for "a publication that is preeminent especially in authoritativeness or wide readership." TV shows and cartoons and stuff have what they call bibles all the time: they just lay out the groundwork for the characters and setting, maybe offer some springboards for writers to use to create material.

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The point isn't that they put no thought into it at all.

The point is that they've written themselves so far into corners that they've made up totally stupid excuses to work around them, and since the games will apparently continue to have no tact put into how they write the stories, they will continue to keep doing that just as they always have.

That's what is disappointing about this. This "two worlds" thing (amongst other stuff that are admittedly less important) is just a bunch of bull that Sega shouldn't expect fans to believe, because besides their extreme overthinking of it... let's be real. No one would've, should've, or could've been able to come to that conclusion with what we know.

I don't care if it's called Earth, Mobius, or Planet Freedom. If it was just one planet that happened to be similar to the real world in some areas and crazier in others, with rings and Chaos Emeralds and loops and magical water droplet pets and goofy looking animals and humans and cartoony-anthro-animal-Sonic-people, I think we would've been more than okay.

Azoo got my thoughts on the spot and explained better than me how this "Bible" proves that SEGA lost touch with reality and has lost its common sense when it comes to Sonic.

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We're speculating on the ramifications of information Sega has given us. The reason I'm singling you out is because you're making a value judgement about Sonic Team's commitment to gameplay on the basis of something Sega didn't give us, e.g., literally nothing. Seriously; you're just making shit up.

This topic is people saying "We thought A leads to B, but Sega said A leads to C, therefore let's try to reconcile how C instead of B is even possible." You're saying "No wonder Sega is bad at X. No one leaked details of X. Therefore X simply doesn't exist." Even if you're just "speculating" (obvious back peddling), the logic upon which you're doing so is still bat-shittingly faulty.

There's more obvious ways to beat the dead horse of "Sonic Team is confused about the gameplay direction" than this. Go in any of the Sonic's future threads and piss about there. And that isn't a friendly suggestion; it's a staff warning.

Leaked self-described bible details anything but gameplay, yeah there's something wrong there. And yeah, an assertion is speculation, one based on that "Sonic Team is confused about the gameplay direction" dead hedgehog which in itself comes from the games Sonic Team has made over the years. Why is Sonic Team "confused about gameplay direction?"

Only convincing argument given was a while back when someone said that may not be what they call it. Again, if it were called something else then I can see that. Not in a self-described "bible".

Flex your muscles if you want, doesn't make you correct. You still ended up reading this anyway. Now had you argued for the few similarities in the games themselves (there are some) things mayhap been different.

I am studying computer science at a degree level.

I have written several Game Design Documents & Pitch documents as well as development documents and logs. Some of which have won awards at the annual global game jam. 

I have read several Game Development Documents, some not online, some online and free to view, from the Metal Gear Solid 2 Design Document to the amazingly obscure leapfrog Sonic design document.

I have read several design bibles including a number of Sonic ones for packaging and design.

 

But go ahead, tell me with all your zero experience of doing either what makes you the expert in what should and shouldn't go in these things?

 Considering you're an anonymous person on the internet whose profile has no personal details in it (for obvious reasons) I take this as a grain of salt. The Metal Gear Solid thing is excellent...but not a self described "bible". Does remind me that post 64 (or was it post Sunshine, can't remember) 3D Mario games don't have full 360 degree motion but are instead locked to eight directions to facilitate proper platforming. Super Mario,  the "development bible" of the gaming world.

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Leaked self-described bible details anything but gameplay, yeah there's something wrong there.

You realize it didn't get leaked, right? We've just heard of a couple of things in it.

This is like if you tore a random page out of a Harry Potter book, didn't find the name "Ron Weasley" on it, and then declared that the character must not exist anywhere within the book.

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I'm not even going to bother trying to reconcile this "two worlds" thing. Especially since if we assume there aren't multiple South Islands and Angel Islands, the only main series games that could really take place on "Sonic's World" would be CD, 4, Colo(ur)s and Lost World. Probably missing a few there, but a tiny number at any rate.

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I think I remember reading that Sonic X was, in development, originally supposed to be canon to the games. Obviously that didn't pan out, but I could easily see the Two Worlds concept featured in the anime just being something they put in preparation of that, which for some reason nobody ever bothered to remove.

 

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