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Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"


Badnik Mechanic

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Technically, there's nothing that says that's what they even officially call it. That's a common term used with universes handled by multiple different people and teams. 

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Technically, there's nothing that says that's what they even officially call it. That's a common term used with universes handled by multiple different people and teams. 

Probably but it's in the thread title. That's enough for me to treat it as such.

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Then I can take your username to mean that everything you say could or could not be a lie, right?

Edited by Shaddy
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Then why do you bother with this thread which is %99.9 percent speculation (the remaining percentage being "Oh, Sonic is from Mars")? Don't single me out because you personally don't like the idea that Sonic Team may not have established rules for gameplay mechanics (which is a very high probability based on the games themselves). 

We're speculating on the ramifications of information Sega has given us. The reason I'm singling you out is because you're making a value judgement about Sonic Team's commitment to gameplay on the basis of something Sega didn't give us, e.g., literally nothing. Seriously; you're just making shit up.

This topic is people saying "We thought A leads to B, but Sega said A leads to C, therefore let's try to reconcile how C instead of B is even possible." You're saying "No wonder Sega is bad at X. No one leaked details of X. Therefore X simply doesn't exist." Even if you're just "speculating" (obvious back peddling), the logic upon which you're doing so is still bat-shittingly faulty.

There's more obvious ways to beat the dead horse of "Sonic Team is confused about the gameplay direction" than this. Go in any of the Sonic's future threads and piss about there. And that isn't a friendly suggestion; it's a staff warning.

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From what I remember, he specifically said that the following "story-arcs" were canon:
The Genesis games (Sonic 1, 2, 3K and CD)
The Adventure-Shadow saga (SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow)
The Riders saga (Riders 1 and 2)
The Rush games (Rush and Rush Adventure)

Beyond that, I can't remember. Special mention for him specifically saying that Chronicles was not canon, especially due to the cliffhanger. It'd be a huge dig, but can someone help source the original quote?

Sega Forums, circa 2008-2009. Good luuuuuuck to ye who attempt it.

As an aside, good luck having Sega ever reference Chronicles again, what with the Penders fiasco that arose from it. I don't think Sega ever wants to touch the "Dark Brotherhood" again.

And it's also likely that Generations itself isn't even canon. Blaze and Silver are mentioned remembering events from Sonic 2006, a game that specifically ended with a "everyone's memory wiped it never happened" ending. Referencing Secret Rings is probably no different from that.

The Advances and Battle are slightly peripherial to the Adventure Era. Advance 2 has Sonic meeting Cream for the first time, and the game was released before Heroes.

The Rivals were confirmed canon by Iizuka himself, that much is true.

Generations has more information on canon than previous games, actually. People love to imply it's not canon because it's an "anniversary celebration game".

 

Lately I've been thinking on remaking and tweaking my thread on the canon, including this recent "two worlds" confusion. http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/18890-the-sonic-canon-as-it-was-until-recently/

What do you think? Good idea for me to try and tweak on this?

 

PS: About this "bible" (It's actually a Lore Guideline in my opinion, not a bible. Saying something like "Bible" for this case sounds like a blasphemy). I think it has become quite useless to discuss about it, because it has opened even more holes (most than any crap we've ever seen in years) on Sonic's lore. I think we can't trust SEGA anymore to deal with Sonic in my opinion, and the lore isn't the only reason. I mean, the Sonic Boom disaster that they're still trying to push through our throats, their inability to make things right on purpose (I'm talking about SEGA and Sonic Team as a whole on this point)... And I'm not sure anymore if it's up to the fanbase to fix that mess.

We work our minds out on shit and all, to the point of exhaustion, but y'know what, at the end of the day, we're not there. Things never are as we wanted it to be. And Sonic Team doesn't even know that people like us, who actually try to work on fixing THEIR mess, do exist.

Edited by ZDozer
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PS: About this "bible" (It's actually a Lore Guideline in my opinion, not a bible. Saying something like "Bible" for this case sounds like a blasphemy). I think it has become quite useless to discuss about it, because it has opened even more holes (most than any crap we've ever seen in years) on Sonic's lore. I think we can't trust SEGA anymore to deal with Sonic in my opinion, and the lore isn't the only reason. I mean, the Sonic Boom disaster that they're still trying to push through our throats, their inability to make things right on purpose (I'm talking about SEGA and Sonic Team as a whole on this point)... And I'm not sure anymore if it's up to the fanbase to fix that mess.

We work our minds out on shit and all, to the point of exhaustion, but y'know what, at the end of the day, we're not there. Things never are as we wanted it to be. And Sonic Team doesn't even know that people like us, who actually try to work on fixing THEIR mess, do exist.

Pretty sure that it would be calling it the Holy Bible that would be blasphemy; a "bible" is just a term for "a publication that is preeminent especially in authoritativeness or wide readership." TV shows and cartoons and stuff have what they call bibles all the time: they just lay out the groundwork for the characters and setting, maybe offer some springboards for writers to use to create material.

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The point isn't that they put no thought into it at all.

The point is that they've written themselves so far into corners that they've made up totally stupid excuses to work around them, and since the games will apparently continue to have no tact put into how they write the stories, they will continue to keep doing that just as they always have.

That's what is disappointing about this. This "two worlds" thing (amongst other stuff that are admittedly less important) is just a bunch of bull that Sega shouldn't expect fans to believe, because besides their extreme overthinking of it... let's be real. No one would've, should've, or could've been able to come to that conclusion with what we know.

I don't care if it's called Earth, Mobius, or Planet Freedom. If it was just one planet that happened to be similar to the real world in some areas and crazier in others, with rings and Chaos Emeralds and loops and magical water droplet pets and goofy looking animals and humans and cartoony-anthro-animal-Sonic-people, I think we would've been more than okay.

Azoo got my thoughts on the spot and explained better than me how this "Bible" proves that SEGA lost touch with reality and has lost its common sense when it comes to Sonic.

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We're speculating on the ramifications of information Sega has given us. The reason I'm singling you out is because you're making a value judgement about Sonic Team's commitment to gameplay on the basis of something Sega didn't give us, e.g., literally nothing. Seriously; you're just making shit up.

This topic is people saying "We thought A leads to B, but Sega said A leads to C, therefore let's try to reconcile how C instead of B is even possible." You're saying "No wonder Sega is bad at X. No one leaked details of X. Therefore X simply doesn't exist." Even if you're just "speculating" (obvious back peddling), the logic upon which you're doing so is still bat-shittingly faulty.

There's more obvious ways to beat the dead horse of "Sonic Team is confused about the gameplay direction" than this. Go in any of the Sonic's future threads and piss about there. And that isn't a friendly suggestion; it's a staff warning.

Leaked self-described bible details anything but gameplay, yeah there's something wrong there. And yeah, an assertion is speculation, one based on that "Sonic Team is confused about the gameplay direction" dead hedgehog which in itself comes from the games Sonic Team has made over the years. Why is Sonic Team "confused about gameplay direction?"

Only convincing argument given was a while back when someone said that may not be what they call it. Again, if it were called something else then I can see that. Not in a self-described "bible".

Flex your muscles if you want, doesn't make you correct. You still ended up reading this anyway. Now had you argued for the few similarities in the games themselves (there are some) things mayhap been different.

I am studying computer science at a degree level.

I have written several Game Design Documents & Pitch documents as well as development documents and logs. Some of which have won awards at the annual global game jam. 

I have read several Game Development Documents, some not online, some online and free to view, from the Metal Gear Solid 2 Design Document to the amazingly obscure leapfrog Sonic design document.

I have read several design bibles including a number of Sonic ones for packaging and design.

 

But go ahead, tell me with all your zero experience of doing either what makes you the expert in what should and shouldn't go in these things?

 Considering you're an anonymous person on the internet whose profile has no personal details in it (for obvious reasons) I take this as a grain of salt. The Metal Gear Solid thing is excellent...but not a self described "bible". Does remind me that post 64 (or was it post Sunshine, can't remember) 3D Mario games don't have full 360 degree motion but are instead locked to eight directions to facilitate proper platforming. Super Mario,  the "development bible" of the gaming world.

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Leaked self-described bible details anything but gameplay, yeah there's something wrong there.

You realize it didn't get leaked, right? We've just heard of a couple of things in it.

This is like if you tore a random page out of a Harry Potter book, didn't find the name "Ron Weasley" on it, and then declared that the character must not exist anywhere within the book.

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Super Mario,  the "development bible" of the gaming world.

You realize that's a figure of speech, right?

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I'm not even going to bother trying to reconcile this "two worlds" thing. Especially since if we assume there aren't multiple South Islands and Angel Islands, the only main series games that could really take place on "Sonic's World" would be CD, 4, Colo(ur)s and Lost World. Probably missing a few there, but a tiny number at any rate.

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I think I remember reading that Sonic X was, in development, originally supposed to be canon to the games. Obviously that didn't pan out, but I could easily see the Two Worlds concept featured in the anime just being something they put in preparation of that, which for some reason nobody ever bothered to remove.

 

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Canon/continuity is such a headache. It's like being punished for caring about a bigger picture than what's happening at any given moment.

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Wow - thanks for taking the time to share this Archangel! I wasn't trying to imply you were 'wrong' about the canon when you gave that original quote, just that I wondered if canon policy had changed since then - as you said, it's constantly in flux.

That's really interesting that the two world thing is so new - I wonder if they're actually buidling up to it being explicitly mentioned in the series itself, and we've just got a 'sneak peak' of the new canon, hence why it seems odd to have not been referenced before?

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Uh, I haven't seen anything that implied Chaotix as canon. In fact, the statements I've heard from him [circa 2013] inferred the entire opposite of that. As for Generations, there seem to be statements all over the place for its canonicity. 

ps

To give you an idea way back when I had to fight Sonic Team for practically a year to even MENTION Knuckles' Chaotix on Sonic City, over time they softened their stance, likely due to community popularity of the characters, their appearanace in other games and, frankly, a bit of a soft spot for them themselves

knew-it.gif

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Wow - thanks for taking the time to share this Archangel! I wasn't trying to imply you were 'wrong' about the canon when you gave that original quote, just that I wondered if canon policy had changed since then - as you said, it's constantly in flux.

Oh no that was a general thing not aimed at you. Don't worry about that.

Uh, I haven't seen anything that implied Chaotix as canon. In fact, the statements I've heard from him [circa 2013] inferred the entire opposite of that. As for Generations, there seem to be statements all over the place for its canonicity. 

Neither did I but apparently it was gospel Iizuka did in that thread. *shrugs*

Well if Generations is deemed to be canon...that's bloody stupid. (Which probably clinches it for being so. lol)

Edited by ArchangelUK
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You mean that thread from 2010? I dunno if the stuff about him wanting to make a Knuckles Chaotix 2 (which would have been more a spiritual sequel...so effectively Sonic 4 Episode 2) was doing the rounds then, so I dunno if that's what they were looking at when they said it. 

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Well if Generations is deemed to be canon...that's bloody stupid.

At least with that you can use the same excuse that Doctor Who does, that due to time travel the whole thing is a big mess of "wibbly wobbly timey wimey"ness. :D

I suppose with '06 in Generations, you could possibly give the fig leaf that white space is able to access alternate timelines or something and 'break into' the closed loop, kind of like in the Terminator franchise.

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You mean that thread from 2010? I dunno if the stuff about him wanting to make a Knuckles Chaotix 2 (which would have been more a spiritual sequel...so effectively Sonic 4 Episode 2) was doing the rounds then, so I dunno if that's what they were looking at when they said it. 

No this was after me leaving and that SEGA board thread. Iizuka "said" Chaotix was canon... apparently..

To be honest everyone was so furious that after moaning that no one would speak to them and confirm stuff someone spoke to them and didn't confirm their personal version of stuff I pretty much gave up and wondered why I even bothered. Its why its unlikely anyone bar Aaron (who is probably daft enough to try) will ever actually sit down and go through stuff with the community and clarify things like that. Too much hassle. 

Anyway I think that's plenty for now, until the next time someone summons me. Congratulations to KingScoopaKoopa who has made me add an SSMB signature after about 5 years.

PS: Watch the Sonic Boom Commentaries.

Edited by AAUK
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