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Awoo.

Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"


Badnik Mechanic
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King Scoopa Koopa

Congratulations to KingScoopaKoopa who has made me add an SSMB signature after about 5 years.

I will always treasure this moment. :blush:

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Speaking of: Someone also above said they didn't like people who said Generations is not canon. Well - and this is opinion only - it probably isn't. Or it shouldn't be. Firstly just because it is a main series game or a big title that doesn't mean that it is canon. One does not precude the other. Generations' story is a framework for the levels more than the levels being designed to tell a story. It was a celebratory collection. Remember Sonic Generations takes place outside of time. As such even implying it is somehow in the timeline seems a tad silly. Because of that "the rules" didn't count for that game, Generations making references to Secret Rings doesn't magically make that retroactively canon. Likewise you have Sonic 06 which is essentially a sealed off loop on the timeline, both happening and not happening. If you go say Generations makes everything it mentioned canon you have to accept Sonic 06 as active canon... which means you have multiple Silvers since Rivals 2's Silver's events occur as a result of Sonic 06 NOT occuring. Confused yet? You would also have to accept that if Generations is canon that Sonic and Eggman would then have pre-awareness of their future adventures after it ended. Sonic and Tails have to have been taken from just past Sonic 2/3 since Classic Sonic at least knows Tails in that story... which would then mean EVERYTHING AFTER THAT SONIC 2 or 3 WOULDN'T HAPPEN. Your call. :P


 

Okay, you debunked me on that. What you said makes big sense, so I'm not arguing with that.

I appreciate your contributions to the discussion, AAUK. Good stuff.

Just not sure why Sega / Sonic Team let it get this way to begin with. What is there to lose when you even just loosely follow a continuity? We don't need major explanations through a full in-depth Hyrule Historia type of compile, we just need something concise enough to make sense out of.. which Sega has time and time again failed to do, either willingly or unwillingly.

It could be just as basic as:

Sonic is the world's fastest hedgehog, who travels the world in wanderlust with his best friend Tails, and is continuously in battle against the forces of Dr. Eggman.

Eggman (legally Dr. Ivo Robotnik) is an evil genius that is constantly trying to find ways to take full control over the planet, galaxy, universe, space-time itself, or whatever he can, so he can make a self-labelled 'utopia' where everyone loves him and he has total robotic rule. Sonic of course, through his strong will for freedom and brute speed/strength, makes for Eggman's ultimate arch-rival/nemesis.

Sonic's world is a very bizarre, contorted rendition of Earth. Long ago, the Chaos Emeralds were used to create the world (got this from S3K's Japanese manuals bout the 'gods and goddesses' or whatever so don't kill me). Because of that, their energy continues to seep throughout the planet, creating loops and other strange shapes, with remaining excess energy seeping out of the ground in the form of Rings. While society in the real world would find this extremely weird, the inhabitants of Sonic's planet have managed to adapt to it over thousands of years, either finding ways to use the rings and loops and whatever to their benefit, or simply find ways to get around it.

In Sonic's world exists humans and animals as expected, but also animal-anthro-people.. such as Sonic and company. Most of those people live on smaller island areas, while humans live on the main-land (Naka actually mentioned in an interview this being why Sonic just met humans besides Eggman for the first time not long before SA1), so humans in Sonic's world still find him quite a unique sight but not as if he's an alien or anything.

Three paragraphs. Three. (And an introductory statement).

And I worked it out. Not saying my method of explaining it is the best way to go about it (since I did do a bit of detail there), but my point is that I don't know why it has to be that ridiculous and over-the-top whenever I can look at what I just wrote and not find it too hard to believe when laying down a series bible. This is vague enough to do whatever with without much worry, but solid enough to make sense out of the world in which all of this takes place (and give more for the fans to think about when playing the games).

Your post has just made my day. I would take this basic guidelines over the actual lore guidelines anytime of my day.

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Let's look on the bright side, this will be a wonderful story to tell people who want to come into the series later.

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Graystripe2000

Someone summoned me again. 

He did. People should consider it AU. Considering everything that happened during its production and since then that's not going to change soon if ever.

One of the things I also went on to say in that thread was that the canon was and is somewhat in flux all the time. As since it is, for want of better phrasing, whatever SEGA want or need it to be at the time. So it could easily change - something that people like to ignore I said so as to deem everything I wrote entirely invalidated after Iizuka implied Chaotix was canon.

Through debate in that thread (I think) we also decided that it was quite likely Battle and the Advance games were canon and I believe I later went on to say that I'd forgotten to add the Destruction of the Knuckles tribe at the beginning of that list. Of course Boom has its own series canon for which a lot of that list probably doesn't apply and we're yet to see how the Neo-Modern Sonic really fits in to the established background story. Which incidentally at the time it wasn't. To give you an idea way back when I had to fight Sonic Team for practically a year to even MENTION Knuckles' Chaotix on Sonic City, over time they softened their stance, likely due to community popularity of the characters, their appearanace in other games and, frankly, a bit of a soft spot for them themselves.

I look forward to people being upset I didn't agree with their personal thoughts on the matter... which is pretty much that entire thread from then to now. 

 

 

Also  I never heard mention of any 'offical series bible'. Which considering I wrote text that had to be approved you'd've thought I would have been shown it, have it mentioned to me or even been given it. There are various character/series design guides which Hogfather mentioned. One's on my shelf at the moment. If one exists I'd've loved to have see it. It'd've made my job much easier!  

Of course it'd been out of date every 4-6 months....

So if this document exists, well done SEGA. You successfully made my job harder for no damn reason. lol

- The "two worlds" thing? New. never heard it before and that I WOULD have been made aware of so that's post-Generations lore if accurate.

 

Speaking of: Someone also above said they didn't like people who said Generations is not canon. Well - and this is opinion only - it probably isn't. Or it shouldn't be. Firstly just because it is a main series game or a big title that doesn't mean that it is canon. One does not precude the other. Generations' story is a framework for the levels more than the levels being designed to tell a story. It was a celebratory collection. Remember Sonic Generations takes place outside of time. As such even implying it is somehow in the timeline seems a tad silly. Because of that "the rules" didn't count for that game, Generations making references to Secret Rings doesn't magically make that retroactively canon. Likewise you have Sonic 06 which is essentially a sealed off loop on the timeline, both happening and not happening. If you go say Generations makes everything it mentioned canon you have to accept Sonic 06 as active canon... which means you have multiple Silvers since Rivals 2's Silver's events occur as a result of Sonic 06 NOT occuring. Confused yet? You would also have to accept that if Generations is canon that Sonic and Eggman would then have pre-awareness of their future adventures after it ended. Sonic and Tails have to have been taken from just past Sonic 2/3 since Classic Sonic at least knows Tails in that story... which would then mean EVERYTHING AFTER THAT SONIC 2 or 3 WOULDN'T HAPPEN. Your call. :P


 

I think the only reason Sonic and the Secret Rings was mentioned was because Ken Pontac doesn't know anything on Sonic history and, as such, didn't know what was canon and what wasn't. http://www.tssznews.com/2013/11/12/interview-reveals-sonic-writer-pontac-knows-nothing-of-sonic-history/ 

 

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I think the only reason Sonic and the Secret Rings was mentioned was because Ken Pontac doesn't know anything on Sonic history and, as such, didn't know what was canon and what wasn't. http://www.tssznews.com/2013/11/12/interview-reveals-sonic-writer-pontac-knows-nothing-of-sonic-history/ 

 

Well, that begs the question as to why no higher ups at Dega bothered to correct them on this error if Secret Rings was not intended to be canon.

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Well, that begs the question as to why no higher ups at Dega bothered to correct them on this error if Secret Rings was not intended to be canon.

It's literally a small referenced used as a joke. Why should canon matter at all then

 

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Well, that begs the question as to why no higher ups at Dega bothered to correct them on this error if Secret Rings was not intended to be canon.

Dega? No wonder he didn't know anything he was working for the wrong company the entire time. I kid I kid. In reply to your question lets be honest it seems like they really don't care anymore. I mean this is the same company that got 2 writers who don't really know much about the franchise and had to resort to wikepedia and youtube because they didn't supply them with information. Keep in mind I'm not bashing their work I think they're doing the best job that they can do(with the exception of shattered crystal) but it just shows how little they care at this point

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Given how fucked up the series' canon is, I honestly don't see P&G not knowing it all as being a bad thing.

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SenEDDtor Missile

Can they just let us, the fans, elect the new writer?

Wouldn't fix anything as long as SEGA don't give a damn.

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Shaddy Zaphod

Wouldn't fix anything as long as SEGA don't give a damn.

Wouldn't it, though? Even if Sega didn't give the new writer this information, we could just vote for someone who doesn't need it. You don't need to be some hardcore fan who's played every game down to Waku Waku Sonic Patrol car to know how to write a Sonic story, and they don't need to be anywhere as complex as even the Adventure games in this day and age, they just need to be more than...well, Sonic Lost World.

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I finally got around to looking at this thread, and wow this is gross.  It's nonsense.  And it sounds exactly like something they'd do.

For one thing, the super emerald fusion absolutely has to have happened for Sonic 3's story and particularly the intro to make the slightest bit of sense, otherwise, where did Sonic's emeralds come from?  The ones that Knuckles was defending have been stolen by Robotnik are are in the death egg.  There's no way Sonic could be super vs. the launch base zone boss without it, the death egg is running off its own set as this scene is taking place.  

Two Worlds.  That concept is absolutely steeped in the indecision and directionlessness the franchise is known for.  

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Shaddy Zaphod

Um, Sonic had the emeralds at the end of Sonic 2. That's part of the canon ending. They didn't disappear like the end of Sonic 1.

As for the rest of what you said regarding super emeralds, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

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Pretty sure the ones Eggman used to repair the Death Egg are the ones that Knuckles knocked the fuck out of you in the intro.

 

 

Though, really, Sonic 4 initially attempted to mangle Sonic 3's story in general, so it's not like any internal consistency should be expected there for minutae anyway.

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Um, Sonic had the emeralds at the end of Sonic 2. That's part of the canon ending. They didn't disappear like the end of Sonic 1.

As for the rest of what you said regarding super emeralds, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

The death egg was powered by the emeralds (unless we're to assume that they were only used to repair it and were then no longer required, which would be really weird), and was flying at the end of launch base zone, a scene during which Sonic can use the chaos emeralds as well.  Getting Knuckles to attack Sonic also would have presumably required a smoking gun, namely missing emeralds, which the manual states were stolen by Robotnik... But Sonic has them.  If this is referring to Sonic 3, it's also saying that there is more than one set, if it's talking about him stealing them in Sonic 2, it still requires there to be more than one set.  Stealing the emeralds is presumably what made Angel Island fall, if we assume there are only 7 total emeralds, it should have been sitting there in the ocean throughout Sonic 2 instead of dropping in notably later.  

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Shaddy Zaphod

Except Knuckles could have stolen them and given them to Robotnik, and Sonic only takes them back after the Death Egg already works without them. Knuckles has proven that he doesn't give a shit about the Chaos emeralds himself (see: Adventure games), so Eggy could've ordered him to take them from Sonic. As for Angel Island, only the Master Emerald keeps it afloat. We've pondered why it started out in the ocean for a while.

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The reason why Angel Island was in the ocean to start with in Sonic 3 was because the force of the Death Egg's crash caused it to fall down into the water, and its immense weight made it stay there.

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I don't think Eggman was ever meant to have taken any emeralds. If he had stolen them, where from? He certainly wouldn't have stumbled his way into the Master Emerald chamber and only taken 7/8 emeralds. And I don't think he needed them for the Launch Base launch; that was an attempt with conventional rockets, as opposed to how it just floated freely once he had the Master Emerald installed. And the emeralds don't need to already be stolen for him to fool Knuckles; Knux is just gullible as fuck.

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Can they just let us, the fans, elect the new writer?

In other words, a petition. Which almost never works.

And no offense, you're giving this fanbase way too much credit to ever be diplomatic for something this rational and democratic. Only way a fan has any vote is with their wallets. 

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King Scoopa Koopa

I nominate Ian Flynn. He is a man of God and country.

...wait, he moved to Canada?

He is a man of moose and maple syrup.

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Wouldn't fix anything as long as SEGA don't give a damn.

Precisely. I don't think everything that's gone wrong with Sonic's writing lately is simply attributal to Pontac and Graff alone. A lot of it really falls on Sonic Team.

Some tthings like the terrible humor and the OOC behavior are things I can attribute to the writers, but the fact that the games now have absolutely nothing to do with their stories is indicative of Sonic Team not working with the writers in the first place.

Lost World is really the most blatant example of this. Why do we get no narrative context for suddenly appearing in Candy Land? Why is it that we get pointless cutscenes where Sonic and the Zeti throw insults at each other, building up to the both of them running off?

Ken Pontac, I believe, mentioned that he and Warren Graff had total creative freedom over the storyline, but I don't think he ever talked about their working relationship with Sonic Team.

We can have the best writers in the world, but I honestly don't think it means anything if Sonic Team doesn't work with the writers to ensure that everything melds together.

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