Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

[ZDozer]

Even so, one should expect the writers actually get to gather knowledge on the material they're writing instead of just throwing wild plots like Pontac does.

Shit, I have the costume of researching the material I work with when I write fanfics for Ragnarok, why can't a professional writer do it?

Edited August 18, 2015 by ZDozer

[Diogenes]

Why do you think they're "throwing wild plots" any more than any writer before them?

And they did do research, they just didn't become obsessive Sonic nerds memorizing 20+ years of shit that the rest of Sonic Team barely even cares about anyway.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Are people really expecting writers to know nearly 25 years of plots and detail before taking a job?

[Kuzu]

I think people expect writers to have a general understanding of how a series works and its lore before they start writing for it.

 

Sonic is not one of those series however, so its kinda hard to blame them for "not getting things right" when the writing staff changes with literally every fucking game.

[ZDozer]

Not 20 years worth of story, but at least the god damn basics. Pontac didn't know even this.

Kuzu got my post right somewhat. It doesn't take eras to know at least the basics.

Edited August 18, 2015 by ZDozer

[Nepenthe]

Are we still acting like Sonic's stories have absolutely no consistency or lore though?

[Diogenes]

Not 20 years worth of story, but at least the god damn basics. Pontac didn't know even this.

Kuzu got my post right somewhat. It doesn't take eras to know at least the basics.

What "basics" do you think they don't know?

[ZDozer]

Guidelines for Sonic and friends' personality, basic lore (IE "Sonic fights Eggman who wants to conquer the world, etc"), Sonic's world, material from a few previous games at least. Something he could base his writing on.

Come on, Sonic was still a very known franchise when this guy started writing, how come he never had contact with the games in some form before he became a writer?

Edited August 18, 2015 by ZDozer

[Kuzu]

Not 20 years worth of story, but at least the god damn basics. Pontac didn't know even this.

Kuzu got my post right somewhat. It doesn't take eras to know at least the basics.

The other half of my point is that there's barely anything to make a coherent and logical plot about, so its nonsensical to expect writers to adhere to this imaginary consistency that people are convinced exists, when it kinda doesn't mean.

Pontac and graff's stories have literally been, at the barest "Sonic & Tails kick ass while foiling the villain", which is honestly the logical premise of the entire franchise. There's not much they deviated from in terms of general lore.

[Vertekins]

Nice to turn any criticism of the current writers often making easily preventable errors that even a small amount of knowledge about the series' characters and continuity would prevent into something it isn't by claiming they should memorize vast swathes of detail regarding the series. It's so atypical of the tendency of some members around here making out as if anyone who exhibits a contrary opinion to their own is hankering for extreme dichotomy i.e "Sonic stories should be more complex" into "Sonic stories should be dark and edgy"

I personally don't ask for writers to have encyclopedic knowledge of the series akin to vastly knowledgable fans. I at the very least ask for competent writing i.e Characters being in-character instead of being derailed for the sake of narrative plot developments i.e SLW's twat Tails, no plotholes/continuity snarls i.e Sonic's sudden amnesia in Colours regarding him exhibiting astonishment at Eggman kidnapping a planet and chaining it to something despite him doing exactly the same thing in CD.

That said however, part of the blame does lie with SEGA/Sonic Team for not instructing the writers enough.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Vertekins

[Diogenes]

Guidelines for Sonic and friends' personality, basic lore (IE "Sonic fights Eggman who wants to conquer the world, etc"), Sonic's world, material from a few previous games at least. Something he could base his writing on.

And why do you think they don't know those things?

[ZDozer]

Nice to turn any criticism of the current writers often making easily preventable errors that even a small amount of knowledge about the series' characters and continuity would prevent into something it isn't by claiming they should memorize vast swathes of detail regarding the series. It's so atypical of the tendency of some members around here making out as if anyone who exhibits a contrary opinion to their own is hankering for extreme dichotomy i.e "Sonic stories should be more complex" into "Sonic stories should be dark and edgy"

I personally don't ask for writers to have encyclopedic knowledge of the series akin to vastly knowledgable fans. I at the very least ask for competent writing i.e Characters being in-character instead of being derailed for the sake of narrative plot developments i.e SLW's twat Tails, no plotholes/continuity snarls i.e Sonic's sudden amnesia in Colours regarding him exhibiting astonishment at Eggman kidnapping a planet and chaining it to something despite him doing exactly the same thing in CD.

That said however, part of the blame does lie with SEGA/Sonic Team for not intructing the writers enough.

This. Just this.

[Kuzu]

Nice to turn any criticism of the current writers often making easily preventable errors that even a small amount of knowledge about the series' characters and continuity would prevent into something it isn't by claiming they should memorize vast swathes of detail regarding the series. It's so atypical of the tendency of some members around here making out as if anyone who exhibits a contrary opinion to their own is hankering for extreme dichotomy i.e "Sonic stories should be more complex" into "Sonic stories should be dark and edgy"

 

:\ ooooooookkkk

 

I personally don't ask for writers to have encyclopedic knowledge of the series akin to vastly knowledgable fans. I at the very least ask for competent writing i.e Characters being in-character instead of being derailed for the sake of narrative plot developments i.e SLW's twat Tails, no plotholes/continuity snarls i.e Sonic's sudden amnesia in Colours regarding him exhibiting astonishment at Eggman kidnapping a planet and chaining it to something despite him doing exactly the same thing in CD.

That said however, part of the blame does lie with SEGA/Sonic Team for not instructing the writers enough.

Everything you listed are just standard narrative pitfalls that previously "good" writers have also fallen into, it doesn't seem really fair to blame Pontac and Graff's "lack of knowledge" about the series when these problems have existed in the series long before they came on board.

[Wraith]

I don't even get why Pontac gets so much heat when it's literally down to Sega/Sonic Team not really caring that much about how the story turns out. 
 

They tell him to write up some scenes about Sonic and Tails running around and telling jokes and he does it. Pontac doesn't pay much attention to past events in the series because he's probably convinced they aren't important or relevant to the franchise now. And who can blame him? If Sonic Team aren't giving him any information or guidelines on the characters or past material to look over, than it must not be important or relevant to the series now, right?

And, really, most of the "flaws" with the stories of these games were also flaws in past games. There's a difference in tone, but whether you like the difference or not is up to taste. 

I just... don't get why people get so upset with the guy like he's the one responsible for the things they don't like about the series. Sega and Sonic Team are the ones responsible. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Wraith

[Celestia]

The "Eggman capturing planets" thing was a very easy mistake to make, in my opinion. I love CD, but despite it's cult following, it's not the most well known game in the series. SEGA probably should've provided them with more info on the series, but that's hardly a problem with the writers themselves. 

Not to mention that, starting with SA1 the connections to the Classic era as far as continuity goes has been...awkward. Like, the flashbacks seen in Adventure to Sonic saving Amy from Metal Sonic, and Sonic and Tails first meeting(?) don't seem to really match up very well, at least going by Generations' establishing the Classic designs as younger versions of the characters. Then again, Gens may or may not be canon, and that ambiguity confuses things even further, etc.

...At this point the "two worlds" should probably just be Classic and Modern in separate timelines, since that'd actually explain stuff that kinda needs explaining, at least compared to the whole human non-issue.

[Diogenes]

no plotholes/continuity snarls i.e Sonic's sudden amnesia in Colours regarding him exhibiting astonishment at Eggman kidnapping a planet and chaining it to something despite him doing exactly the same thing in CD.

This kind of nerdery is another reason why I want the series to rebooted. Seriously this is so fucking inconsequential, a throwaway line not taking into account a slightly-obscure game from 20 years ago.

And as if this makes them any worse than the previous writers ballsing up Blaze and Nega's origins to the point of incoherency only a game or two after their introductions.

[Vertekins]

I'm not judging the current writers against previous ones That isn't a point behind my argument.

And the point about the disregard for a basic element of CD's plot for me isn't stupendously important. I was citing it as an example of how little research the writers made into continuity to get a general gist of it.

[Diogenes]

You may not be intentionally comparing them, but my point is that the old writers never got the amount of bile that Pontac and Graff have even when they've done dumber things.

And your argument still comes down to "they don't write the characters how I want and they didn't acknowledge an inconsequential detail from a 20 year old game so they're incompetent".

[Vertekins]

And your argument still comes down to "they don't write the characters how I want and they didn't acknowledge an inconsequential detail from a 20 year old game so they're incompetent".

My consternation with the shitty characterization doesn't stem from my own preferences. It stems from expecting characters to be portrayed in-character, consistent with how they've been portrayed over the course of the series i.e Something that is the most basic of expectations.

Neither Sonic nor Tails have been portrayed as true to the basic traits of their characters during Pontac's and Graff's tenure as writers. The result is that they are both OoC.

[Diogenes]

I emphatically disagree, I feel they're both largely in character and more complex and interesting than before. But neither of us is going to be able to argue the other out of our positions on this.

[Badnik Mechanic]

I just don't get why people say that the characters don't act like they should. What's he problem?

[Wraith]

The only real example I can think of is Tails in Lost World. Both characters were on point in Colors. It also helped that I actually didn't mind listening to them talk for the most part instead of cringing.

 

Sonic is better than he's ever been except for maybe the OVA. Impulsive, cocky, and talks a lot of trash. It's the Sonic I've wanted to see for a while. Tails wasn't good in Lost World but he was fine in Colors. Eggman is great across both games. I don't really see the problem.

[JezMM]

Yeah I didn't have any issue with the current writers until Lost World, and it was almost purely Tails' portrayal that bothered me.  He's not even OoC compared to the previous writers' work, he's OoC compared to the current writers' own work in Colours and Generations.  Hell, in Lost World, characters out OoC compared to THEMSELVES in earlier cut-scenes.  Sonic acts rashly in Desert Ruins and is chided for it, then chides himself for not acting rashly enough in Silent Forest without any kind of reference or parallel to the earlier event made.  Tails almost gets hurt due to tinkering with things, then saves himself and the world at the end by tinkering with things without any ramifications.

Lost World was on point with the humour (well, with the main characters anyway, not so much the Deadly Six) and the writers have my respect for that.  I've never laughed at a Sonic game with genuine enjoyment like I have Lost World.  But the amount of attempts to foreshadow or build character...  Hell Colours had this problem too, but in that game, simply nothing became of foreshadowing.  Lost World felt worse because later events actively contradict what COULD have been lessons learned or foreshadowing earlier on.

Edited August 18, 2015 by JezMM

[Kuzu]

The characterization has been fucking everywhere for this series; Sonic has ranged from barely emoting beyond a stoic glare to constantly berating how amazing he is, Tails has ranged from being a naive worshiper to Sonic to being a smartass like Sonic, Knuckles has ranged from being serious about his job to leaving it for the smallest indiscretions.

How anyone can claim that one portrayal is more "in-character" than another is beyond me, when at this point its all come down to people's own interpretations and what they're willing to accept. This really isn't as objective as people think it is.

 

Unless I see Sonic turn orange and start spouting lyrics from Chris Brown's latest albums, I'm gonna say that every portrayal of him has been "in-character" for the most part. If you prefer how he's written in one game to another, fine that's coolio, I guess. 

[Diogenes]

Sonic acts rashly in Desert Ruins and is chided for it, then chides himself for not acting rashly enough in Silent Forest

That's not what happened at all. He acted rashly again, Tails took the metaphorical bullet for him, then he bemoaned his inability to save Tails in spite of his speed.