Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

[Kuzu]

This would be okay if the story actually drew attention to it or did something with it, but it doesn't.  Tails is just a smarmy jerk in Lost World... because.  It doesn't serve or improve the story in any way because ultimately Tails' overconfidence in his ability to work machinery leads to no ill results other than a single self-contained cut-scene.

This is the gist of it, yea. 

 

Its not so much Tails being a snarky ass that I take issue with, its the fact that he's a snarky ass and the story still expects us to sympathize with him. When Sonic is reckless and fucks up, the story never lets up on him throughout the entire game, up until the ending when he has to apologize to Tails. Tails acts self-entitled and accuses Sonic of selfishness, and we're supposed to feel bad and go "awww" when he "just wants to help".

It doesn't work; just because a character is put in a sympathetic situation doesn't make the character themselves sympathetic. I would have actually felt bad for Tails if he wasn't being a fuckhead about the whole thing. Or if the story ever bothered to call out his actions like it constantly did to Sonic's. 

 

EDIT: I just realized how incredibly off-topic this is too. can we...uh...talk about the bible some more?

Edited August 19, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[ZDozer]

Is there any sense left in talk about this "bible"? Don't matter how many times we try to figure that shit out, we'll still be running in circles, after our own tails.

Edited August 19, 2015 by ZDozer

[shdowhunt60]

Character development is still a thing that can happen, it already has happened in previous games...this does not require a character to age, it only requires a character to emotionally mature.
 

A character's age is something the story must evolve around, otherwise it doesn't matter and really wouldn't add anything to the story they're trying to tell.

Here's the thing, what happened with Tails in Lost World is in no way shape or form development. For one, that would imply that Pontac and Graff actually knew who they were writing. We already know that isn't the case, because when Roger interviewed Pontac he said that he not only wasn't provided any supplemental material and had to go off of Wikipedia, he also stated that he had no idea what the Sonic Adventure games were. How could you develop off a character arc you had no idea even existed?

Secondly, how is making a character self-centered and egotistical a logical development from an arc that was about gaining self-confidence? That doesn't sound logical at all.

Hamfistedly shoving random character traits is not character development. It's just the writers not having any clue about the characters they're writing.

[Phos]

Are we still acting like Sonic's stories have absolutely no consistency or lore though?

they kinda don't, though. The "two worlds" concept seems meant to (kinda weakly) explain why. GUN is probably the go to example...  Wait I'll get back to this...

GUN was both in the very earth like SA 2 and and very un earth like Heroes, which to me screams that this two worlds thing is a retcon, surprising nobody. 

Anyway, in terms of consistency, there's this purple fire spitting cat that seems to have issues with consistency, the entire military industrial complex who is in retrospect conspicuously absent from SA1, the bananas future tech seen in the riders series (such as Sonic's stick shift flying car), and where the crap Eggman Nega is actually from, and then we have games like Sonic battle that people just sort of assume aren't canon because they can't really be placed anywhere in the timeline, such as Sonic Battle. They make a token effort, but outside of random mentions, there really isn't much continuity. 

Oh, and then we have generations, a game that seems like they never really decided if it was supposed to have a story or not. For one thing, they bring up the question of what the level select area is, but never actually answer it.  For another, what does it mean for the cannon that these characters met themselves offset by about 15 (?) years. 

[Nepenthe]

I think we're all in agreement that Gens is little more than just a celebratory title and not meant to be taken seriously concerning canon. But I've already gone over the general connecting points between the major games so I'm not gonna repeat myself, nor do I really concern myself with the handhelds (not because they can't be placed, but because I see little point in bothering with them. It's wholly arbitrary as to whether or not they exist.)

But I mean, different areas of the world have different military industries and responses, and the technology in Sonic has always been significantly complex so much so that hoverboard racing was a natural idea no one really complained about, and on top of that flying vehicles were already seen in a couple of years before in Heroes. These aren't actually plot holes or disastrous scenarios where Sonic Team has written themselves into some corner. It's the natural result of a series that had been developed as it went along, at least until the modern games anyway. So yeah, I still don't get why people think there is absolutely no connective tissue to be had between the games. Fuck, if there weren't, this two worlds thing wouldn't even be contentious.

[Phos]

I'm saying that they have continuity (after a fashion) but no consistency. It almost seems as though the only time games don't contradict is when they directly reference each other. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

I just kind of hate that now we always have to second-guess whether or not the game coming out tomorrow is going to "matter" the day after.

Not literally, of course. But it kind of invalidates the idea of getting invested in any of them if they're just going to start throwing games out like a cartoon character rifling through a dresser drawer.

[Nepenthe]

I'm saying that they have continuity (after a fashion) but no consistency. It almost seems as though the only time games don't contradict is when they directly reference each other. 

So basically there is actually a continuity except in the case of spin-offs where they're naturally allowed to deviate........ Okay?

[Kuzu]

So basically there is actually a continuity except in the case of spin-offs where they're naturally allowed to deviate........ Okay?

I think its that there iscontinuity, except its in the loosest sense of it with the only thing that carries over being the characters and their personalities. Basically, every game more or less takes place in its own little setting rather than being part of a larger, serialized whole.

 

[Nepenthe]

I think its that there iscontinuity, except its in the loosest sense of it with the only thing that carries over being the characters and their personalities. Basically, every game more or less takes place in its own little setting rather than being part of a larger, serialized whole.

Am I going to have to go over the fact that basically ever major Sonic release includes actual story elements that do carry over from game to game with the literal exception of the modern games again? Or is this just a disagreement ultimately concerning degrees of differentiation, and people are taking contention with the fact that the games basically don't do more of an MCU?

[Kuzu]

Am I going to have to go over the fact that basically ever major Sonic release includes actual story elements that do carry over from game to game with the literal exception of the modern games again? Or is this just a disagreement ultimately concerning degrees of differentiation, and people are taking contention with the fact that the games basically don't do more of an MCU?

I mean, its not like the series has really put a major focus on that type of stuff before, so I don't blame people for not really acknowledging it.

[Nepenthe]

I mean, its not like the series has really put a major focus on that type of stuff before, so I don't blame people for not really acknowledging it.

The focus came to slightly more individualized adventures once Heroes rolled around, but I can't empathize with the viewpoint that says this lack of hardcore focus on continuity means people honestly thought there was basically no sequence of events, contradictions everywhere, or that Sonic Team had somehow written themselves into a corner and had reason to be confused about the proceedings. The series is pretty straightforward. All my opinion boils down to at this point is that I just don't get it.

[Kuzu]

The focus came to slightly more individualized adventures once Heroes rolled around, but I can't empathize with the viewpoint that says this lack of hardcore focus on continuity means people honestly thought there was basically no sequence of events, contradictions everywhere, or that Sonic Team had somehow written themselves into a corner and had reason to be confused about the proceedings. The series is pretty straightforward. All my opinion boils down to at this point is that I just don't get it.

I don't think anyone is saying that things have always been disassembled, but its kind of obvious that plot structuring is not an overt focus of the series; games only connect to each other when one directly references another, but other than that each game is more or less independent. Sonic Adventure 2, outside of referencing a few plot points here and there, doesn't really build on anything that Sonic Adventure established. Heroes, as you said is its own story more or less as well as Sonic 06 and then continuing on from there into the Modern games.

And this isn't even getting into the whole Silver/Blaze/Eggman Nega debacle that clouded up this series for years.

[Nepenthe]

On the contrary, people have been saying in this topic and others that there's "barely a canon" or "nothing matters" or that "everything's a mess." If nothing else, the reboot topic was rife with people just throwing their hands up because it seemed to them that the canon was impossible to reconcile or something, so it appears to me that this has been the presiding viewpoint on the series' overall story for awhile now.

I agree though that the stories easily function as standalone adventures. The point of disagreement is that I don't consider this to either be a negative or a symptom of some larger problem with the overall universe or a sign that there's contradictions out the ass.

[ZDozer]

I think we're all in agreement that Gens is little more than just a celebratory title and not meant to be taken seriously concerning canon. But I've already gone over the general connecting points between the major games so I'm not gonna repeat myself, nor do I really concern myself with the handhelds (not because they can't be placed, but because I see little point in bothering with them. It's wholly arbitrary as to whether or not they exist.)

But I mean, different areas of the world have different military industries and responses, and the technology in Sonic has always been significantly complex so much so that hoverboard racing was a natural idea no one really complained about, and on top of that flying vehicles were already seen in a couple of years before in Heroes. These aren't actually plot holes or disastrous scenarios where Sonic Team has written themselves into some corner. It's the natural result of a series that had been developed as it went along, at least until the modern games anyway. So yeah, I still don't get why people think there is absolutely no connective tissue to be had between the games. Fuck, if there weren't, this two worlds thing wouldn't even be contentious.

Actually, there are some connections in the GBA games, like Sonic meeting Cream for the first time in Advance 2. Also, for what I know, both Rush and Rivals were confirmed into canon (the latter by Iizuka himself and not Generations).

Aside from this... You're right. Sonic's story went quite okay until the Modern Era came. I've noted this on my thread on the Sonic canon when I made it. Hell, even the GBA games can be quite neatly connected into the Adventure Era while we have trouble making sense of the Modern Era.

Edited August 20, 2015 by ZDozer

[Amomynous]

I like to think Tails just picked up a few of Sonic's worse tendencies by hanging around him so much.  Sonic's a nice guy and all, but he miiiight not be the greatest influence for the kid in more than a few ways.

 

This would be okay if the story actually drew attention to it or did something with it, but it doesn't.  Tails is just a smarmy jerk in Lost World... because.  It doesn't serve or improve the story in any way because ultimately Tails' overconfidence in his ability to work machinery leads to no ill results other than a single self-contained cut-scene.

This would be okay if he actually acted anything like Sonic, on what basis are people making this conclusion? I don't exactly remember Sonic being petty or bitter.

Reckless and snarky maybe but Tails was a completely different beast.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Amomynous

[Wittymations]

About Mobius being Mars. Two thoughts been brought up.

Mobius as Mars is simply that Mobius is a lifeless planet, just like our mars, and that it exists in both universes (or that it only exists in the furry universe), and that Sonic's World is still just earth, but of the furry universe.

The other is that both Earth and Mobius exist in the same universe, Earth is human world, Mobius is Sonic's World. It's just that it has the same placement as Mars, there.

 

If it's the first one, what would really be the point of calling Mars Mobius, at all? Why did they decide to take that name if they're never going to mention it?

[ZDozer]

About Mobius being Mars. Two thoughts been brought up.

Mobius as Mars is simply that Mobius is a lifeless planet, just like our mars, and that it exists in both universes (or that it only exists in the furry universe), and that Sonic's World is still just earth, but of the furry universe.

The other is that both Earth and Mobius exist in the same universe, Earth is human world, Mobius is Sonic's World. It's just that it has the same placement as Mars, there.

 

If it's the first one, what would really be the point of calling Mars Mobius, at all? Why did they decide to take that name if they're never going to mention it?

I'm not even trying to make any sense of that "two worlds" bullshit, as huge as it is. If you wanted proof that SEGA/Sonic Team is completely lost in how to define Sonic's scenario, this is the one. Then again, I'm repeating myself like a parrot at this point.

Edit: Things were so calm with the thread dead... Why revive it, really?

Edited August 23, 2015 by ZDozer

[Tornado]

Edit: Things were so calm with the thread dead... Why revive it, really?

What the hell are you talking about?

[Oh Noes]

I am both happy and disappointed with Iizuka.

As idiotic as it seems I never thought that there was an official bible, and I was pretty upbeat to learn there was one. Sadly this just made me loose my faith of Iizuka even more. Although I do like the idea that the "Human" and "Mobian" "worlds" are alien to each other, the theory of them being different dimensions is just cheap. And the fact that all the previous canon info about the Emeralds mythology and the hero's super forms are thrown away is just a decision I cannot understand except for the fact that Iizuka has no interest in them.

As usual, I'm pretty disappointed with the direction the canon is taking. I cannot think of a good reason that is not pure marketing as to why Iizuka is always trying to change the canon and not instead building upon the original mythos, you know, something that works PERFECTLY well when you handle it correctly. But with the seriousness they put in the Sonic plots today, I doubt this will change. I just hope one day we'll have someone to change all of that. Who knows, if a miracle happens, it could be a fan of the series...

[Diesel]

Super Emeralds & Hyper forms:

Iizuka has publicly verified this. Basically, Super Emeralds and Hyper forms are considered non canon, not only that but they may never be referenced again aside from legacy material, e.g. history of Sonic books.

That's good to hear.

Super Forms:

Iizuka has verified this (to a point): Only male hedgehogs can get a super form... there is one exception.

I do think Sonic, Shadow and Silver should be the only ones to be shown with Super forms, but there actually being a rule that nobody else can have any is lame. Other characters shouldn't be shown with Super forms as it'd cheapen the value of them, but it should still be possible for them to go Super.

There are 'Two Worlds' in the Sonic-Verse

This has been confirmed by Ruby just a few weeks ago. In the Sonic-Verse, there are two worlds or planets,

One is an earth like human world which looks very similar to our own and has humans all over it. These are your Sonic Adventures, Sonic Unleashed, Shadow etc. 

Then you have 'Sonic's World.' These are worlds which would look totally alien to our world, no/little humans, crazy colours, concepts, rules etc. Think games like Sonic Colours and Sonic Lost World.

Now these two worlds are 'connected' in a strange way, according to the bible, they are separated by a 'gate' what happens on one world, doesn't happen on the other,* So whilst the Deadly Six appear in 'Sonic's World' the 'Human World' has never heard of them. So this sorta explains why in some games we see something happening, then in the next game there's no reference or mention to it.

* Since events on these worlds are closed, we don't know if there are 'two' sonics' on these worlds, or if one Sonic is able to pass from one to another, or if both Sonic's share memories.. ... I told you there would be contradictions/complications with this bible.

I think that's a lame retcon. It had never been suggested before that there were "two worlds", and now it turns out there actually are after all these years? It just seems forced.

[Your Vest Friend]

I am both happy and disappointed with Iizuka.

As idiotic as it seems I never thought that there was an official bible, and I was pretty upbeat to learn there was one. Sadly this just made me loose my faith of Iizuka even more. Although I do like the idea that the "Human" and "Mobian" "worlds" are alien to each other, the theory of them being different dimensions is just cheap. And the fact that all the previous canon info about the Emeralds mythology and the hero's super forms are thrown away is just a decision I cannot understand except for the fact that Iizuka has no interest in them.

As usual, I'm pretty disappointed with the direction the canon is taking. I cannot think of a good reason that is not pure marketing as to why Iizuka is always trying to change the canon and not instead building upon the original mythos, you know, something that works PERFECTLY well when you handle it correctly. But with the seriousness they put in the Sonic plots today, I doubt this will change. I just hope one day we'll have someone to change all of that. Who knows, if a miracle happens, it could be a fan of the series...

Except...most of this stuff hasn't been changed for at least a decade now. They were gone before the millennium. 

[Dantemustdie00]

Not even Ian Flynn likes the whole 2 Worlds crap Iizuka made up (I mean jeez they should've said something BEFORE the reboot for the comic's), through at least he's doing a good job showing Humans and Anthro's/Mobians co-existing together, something that the games greatly lacked, or at least they never bothered to explain or show at all.

Ugh...such a mess this is.

[Your Vest Friend]

There's also this assumption that Iizuka alone made this, as opposed to just being the guy who communicates the changes to the audience (being the head of Sonic Team and all). This seems more like SEGA responding to people who are like "Eggman should be the only human I hate that people and animals co-exist!". 

[Toby]

Do we know how literal this whole two worlds thing is anyway? Perhaps it's all from a game developement point of view.

like say, when planning the game, do you want there to be humans or not? Are there modern day cities or futuristic Utopias?  Maybe we're all just taking this more literally than we were meant to.