Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

[Your Vest Friend]

Do we know how literal this whole two worlds thing is anyway? Perhaps it's all from a game developement point of view.

like say, when planning the game, do you want there to be humans or not? Are there modern day cities or futuristic Utopias?  Maybe we're all just taking this more literally than we were meant to.

It was said that there is a gate separating them. How does that factor into game development?

[Toby]

I didn't read that part. Sorry for wasting your time.

[Salamander]

The gate could simply be a conceit explaining why the events in one "world" don't affect the other but Sonic and his friends can still appear in either world.  Hence why none of this nonsense has ever appeared in the games.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Maybe the Sonic Team offices have two big rooms, "Humans" and "No Humans," and they call the doorway between them the gateway?

[ZDozer]

Man, I'm unfollowing that thread, seriously.

You guys wanna run behind your own tails, do it at your own leisure. It will not change anything at all.

[Nepenthe]

There's not a single conversation on this forum that will change a thing about how Sega operates and treats the franchise. Acting is if anyone is operating under the belief that they can is pretty unnecessary.

[Oh Noes]

Except...most of this stuff hasn't been changed for at least a decade now. They were gone before the millennium. 

I can assume that, but I'm talking here about the several directions the "environment" of the Sonic games has been taking. It went from half realistic in the Adventure games to colorful and close to the original games in the Advance series and Heroes, before returning to hyper realistic in ShTH and Sonic 06, then becoming colorful (but still realistic) in Unleashed...You get the idea. With those changes unsurprisingly comes a change in the canon itself, focusing on humans and a society close to ours. Excluding Silver and Marine, when was the last time we saw a new "mobian" character in the main series? I've said it before, but not exploiting a world-building based on the cohabitation between anthro and human characters is a seriously missed opportunity out here.

 

There's also this assumption that Iizuka alone made this, as opposed to just being the guy who communicates the changes to the audience (being the head of Sonic Team and all). This seems more like SEGA responding to people who are like "Eggman should be the only human I hate that people and animals co-exist!". 

Wouldn't be surprising. The guy already made the scenario of ShTH almost all by itself and the game series doesn't have a defining writer (Well now it does but...It's not pretty.). A director's gotta do what a director's gotta do.

 

There's not a single conversation on this forum that will change a thing about how Sega operates and treats the franchise. Acting is if anyone is operating under the belief that they can is pretty unnecessary.

That's very true, but sorry if I look dumb, but what makes you say that?

[Nepenthe]

That's very true, but sorry if I look dumb, but what makes you say that?

Zdozer's post right above mine. There's no use in complaining about the futility of a conversation towards enacting real change on a Sonic forum. You might as well leave altogether.

[Oh Noes]

Zdozer's post right above mine. There's no use in complaining about the futility of a conversation towards enacting real change on a Sonic forum. You might as well leave altogether.

Oh right, thanks. Well, yeah, a fire only die out with oxygenated water or when nobody else throws wood at it. Back on topic, anyways...

 

Not even Ian Flynn likes the whole 2 Worlds crap Iizuka made up

Source of that please?

[Milo]

There's also this assumption that Iizuka alone made this, as opposed to just being the guy who communicates the changes to the audience (being the head of Sonic Team and all). This seems more like SEGA responding to people who are like "Eggman should be the only human I hate that people and animals co-exist!". 

Eh, with interviews like this in the wild, I can sorta see where people are coming from with such assumptions. Not saying they are completely valid though, but you get the idea of why people would even argue it in the first place.

So originally it was more or less the same team working on all the different Sonic titles, but after a few years, for various reasons, we started to delegate Sonic games to different groups of people.

And everyone in the office has their own idea of what Sonic should be, so we started to see slightly varied, slightly different directions of Sonic games.

I was conscious of this, so I’m now back with full responsibility of all things Sonic. I have control over the direction of not just Sonic Generations, but all the Sonic titles that we will develop in the future.

So I have more control, and hopefully this will provide better appearances for future titles.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Gabe

[azoo]

I was conscious of this, so I’m now back with full responsibility of all things Sonic. I have control over the direction of not just Sonic Generations, but all the Sonic titles that we will develop in the future.

So I have more control, and hopefully this will provide better appearances for future titles.

Oh, well ain't that just super.

Also, Sonic Team A, B, C whatever confirmed, going by that. Good to know everyone in the team has a different idea as to what Sonic is as well... ha ha... haaaaaa.... haaaaaaaaaaaaaa...............

Edited August 30, 2015 by Azoo

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

In light of this, do you think it might be possible that this Two Worlds thing is a pretty recent development, created by Iizuka sometime after he "got control"? And if that's the case, do you think it's possible it's actually intended to be a part of future games?

If it is, that's both better and worse...better because now the canon stated in Sega's secret manuals actually has some connection to an actual game, and worse because it's still a dumb idea. I'd rather pretend it just isn't true.

Also, if there was conflicts within Sonic Team about what Sonic should be, that might help explain why the "solution" they came up with is so dumb. Maybe they wanted to please everyone within the team.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Monkey Destruction Switch

[Dejimon11]

I don't think it was Iizuka's idea if anything this was probably the case back when Sonic X was in development. 

[antyep]

I don't think it was Iizuka's idea if anything this was probably the case back when Sonic X was in development. 

So in other words, this could be out of date?

[Your Vest Friend]

I don't think it's that old, since AAUK was never told this while he was told the other points. 

[Celestia]

Also, Sonic Team A, B, C whatever confirmed, going by that.

I didn't think that needed to be confirmed considering we determined that a long time ago just by analyzing the credits in previous games. Also I'm not sure what that quote has to do with Sonic Team having a few different teams, unless you mean something else in the interview?

Anyhow, with that particular quote in mind, I can't help but be reminded of Iizuka's expressions when he saw Boom footage. As time goes on, I really do question how much ST was actually involved with Boom. If I remember correctly it was stated that they were working in an advisory role, but given the aforementioned Iizuka reaction and...well, how things turned out in general, I get the impression that they didn't have that much of a say, nor were they kept informed of the games' progress. But that's just baseless speculation, really...maybe we'll get the full story of what went on behind the scenes, someday. Might make for a great documentary or something.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Celestia

[DavidTL]

Oh man this topic sure was a fun one to read.

Well, kinda. But hey.

I wanted to point out a couple things. First off, I'd be fairly certain that the "two worlds" concept is relatively recent. Aside from the fact Kevin Eva was completely unaware of it, the way it was described in that 4chan-esque thread was that the connection involved a portal using Chaos Control. Even taking out the Sonic Adventure 2 reference, I doubt it was something even considered during the classic era. When Ohshima was sketching out Sonic, Eggman and Madonna, I sincerely doubt anyone on that team went "oh well Eggman is obviously from a human world and Sonic is from a non-human world." If anything, it was a just a slightly surreal cartoon landscape where they could do whatever the heck they wanted. It was only Sega of America that seemed to really have a problem with this...which is also funny because the very first document we have access to that is called the "Sonic the Hedgehog Bible" that created the alternate western storyline actually places Sonic on Earth. Granted, it's the middle of Nebraska, and he can't talk until he gets zapped by an alphabet machine created by Ovi Kintobor, but...

I know there was a "Sonic Bible" in use at Sega of America after this. I think it was on eBay a long while ago, but it was a bit too expensive and I don't think anyone bought it and scanned the whole thing. I was under the impression it was different than a style guide that was being used at around the same time that was given to licencors, but I don't have access at the moment to images of either of these guides. I know I saved the eBay listing, but it's either buried with everything else unsorted on my computer, or its on a previous hard drive.

As for Japan, there had to have been some sort of style guide/series Bible that they used during the classic era. After all, this text had to have come from somewhere, even if I have a feeling that it wasn't accurately translated from its original source. That not only references the Chuck Yeager material that was only barely mentioned in early promotional material in Japan, but also mentions Knuckles who wasn't created until Sonic 3. That had to have come from the early Sonic Team, and may have been part of a larger document. And if they had something then, how crazy is it to assume that when Sonic Team reclaimed the franchise as they were making the first Sonic Adventure, that they updated whatever internal documents they referenced? I don't know exactly when AAUK was hired into Sega, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a series bible written for Adventure, stayed in Japan, and just kinda disappeared. That there was no primary document to reference, especially for the west, aside from a purely visual guide. Would make sense if you take into account Iizuka's statement of reigning in control during Generation's development. If he wants everything Sonic to go past him, then it would also work if at the same time a brand new series Bible is commissioned within Sonic Team.

Why two worlds? Because of fans complaining, probably. How many times has someone gone "how can this planet be Earth it doesn't look like Earth." Or "where are there humans in this game the old games didn't have humans." The two worlds compromise is there for fans who can not reconcile that a modern looking city could exist on the same planet as a surrealistic island that drifts across the ocean. Sure, this doesn't make any sense if you look at any game story closely (as has been explained time and again in this thread) but if the Bible explicitly stated it was one world, then you'd have kids complaining about the opposite. Really, it's the current whim of Sonic Team, especially when you think that, before Sonic Boom, Sonic X was the last big push to market the franchise to a younger audience. That show was in constant rotation until very recently. A kid who watched reruns of Sonic X and pestered their mom to buy Colors and Generations is more likely to embrace the idea of two worlds, since it was in that cartoon. And that show was made in Japan. That's not to say the games were going by the two worlds theory at the time - I'm sure they weren't - but how hard would it be to adopt it? Heck, they took Amy Rose and Charmy Bee from the 1992 manga, so there is already precedent for the game developers to use material that was created by someone else.

Also, I'm surprised no one has stated the obvious. Why would "Sonic's Mars" be called Mobius? Because Mobius is an American invention, and even though internally they are now viewing the series as taking place in two separate universes, they want everyone to know that there is NO WAY Sonic is actually from Mobius.

[Nestor]

Why two worlds? Because of fans complaining, probably. How many times has someone gone "how can this planet be Earth it doesn't look like Earth." Or "where are there humans in this game the old games didn't have humans." The two worlds compromise is there for fans who can not reconcile that a modern looking city could exist on the same planet as a surrealistic island that drifts across the ocean. Sure, this doesn't make any sense if you look at any game story closely (as has been explained time and again in this thread) but if the Bible explicitly stated it was one world, then you'd have kids complaining about the opposite.

To be fair, the majority of fans would have had no inkling about the whole difference between the Japanese and Western storylines; back when Sonic Adventure came out, the internet was still in its infancy and only the most hardcore fans would have any idea of a plot existing outside of the western games manuals. To most fans, Sonic was and always had been set on the planet Mobius (which was reinforced by both the TV series and the comics of the time) which was a fantastic land of chequered hillsides and populated by anthormorphic animals, with Robotnik an interloper.

When Sonic Adventure came out, to most fans - lacking the context of the westernization that the plot had undergone from the Sega of America - it would have seemed a radical departure from the style and feel of the old series, with a switch to realistic settings, humans everywhere and it suddenly being set on Earth, from their perspective. Their outcry at the 'changes' to what went before therefore wouldn't be an unreasonable reaction - to them, it would genuinely have seemed to have changed, and it's fairly counterintuitive to look at the more realistic settings of SA and the fantastic settings of the early game without context and go "yep, that's obviously the same setting". Of course, it makes more sense when you're aware of the original Japanese backstory, but I'd wager most players of Sonic weren't at this time and having been permeated with the Sega of America storyline, it was difficult to mentally shift gears.

However, if fan complaining was the reason for the change to two worlds, surely they would have done this over a decade ago, when it was at its peak? It seems odd that they'd suddenly, randomly do this now. It's interesting to note that Kevin himself in his interview said that he had a hard time putting all the games together completely coherently and preferred personally to think of them as being different continuities in each era - it may be that Sega itself has decided that they don't really know where they're going with the plot and want to actually make something a bit more concrete and cohesive going forwards. Perhaps the two worlds thing is something they will retcon into future games (bearing in mind how recent it seems to have come into being) and it seems weird to us because we've found out about before it's actually been put into the games, as it were?

Also, I'm surprised no one has stated the obvious. Why would "Sonic's Mars" be called Mobius? Because Mobius is an American invention, and even though internally they are now viewing the series as taking place in two separate universes, they want everyone to know that there is NO WAY Sonic is actually from Mobius.

I'd disagree here - when this was revealed originally, they mentioned that there is a human world and a non-human world, then start talking about how Mobius exists (but is not actually called Mobius) and is the Sonic universe equivalent to Mars; from the context of that discussion, by 'Mobius' they're referring to the non-human world (i.e. a world of anthromorphic animals) and how it is essentially similar to the old Sega of America concept of Mobius but not actually called that, occupying a similar position in relation to Sonic's Earth as Mars is to our Earth. If 'Mobius' was supposed to be a third extra planet, they'd be talking in terms of three planets (two non-human, one human), not two; from what Kevin said, it's clear that its supposed to be a setup somewhat akin to Sonic X.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Should be mentioned, Sonic X had heavy creative influence from Uekawa, IIRC. If this is the result of Iizuka taking control and wanting to balance the various views of Sonic in the team (which I'm not sure why Azoo is acting despaired over, it's obvious every person in the team will have their idea of what a Sonic is simply by virtue of not being a hivemind- see also Sonic 2 vs Sonic CD), I wouldn't be surprised if this is something Uekawa liked in Sonic X/came up with for Sonic X that he suggested get used now and Iizuka agreed.

[LongcrierCat]

I'm not going to touch the Two Worlds/Two Dimensions thing again because it's too stupidly overcomplicated I'm surprised that Sonic is just as complicated as any long running comic book from DC/Marvel and yet they completely ignore said alt media in any of Sonic's games. It makes sense, but it's just dumb. There's all this science fiction galaxy and time space paradox stuff going on that I'm surprised that it's just Sonic eaten up by this story instead of the whole of the Sega line of IPs that they've continued to ignore when they could easily used the Two Worlds concept to justify Sonic meeting up with Axel, Blaze, Skate, and Dr. Zan. Hell, maybe them deal with the coming of the Orbot Tech. A Sonic on Sega Earth game could be awesome if they treated their Earth like the Earth in their other games. But no, we get this exclusionary Sonic only overly complicated mess. 

Also, I'm surprised no one has stated the obvious. Why would "Sonic's Mars" be called Mobius? Because Mobius is an American invention, and even though internally they are now viewing the series as taking place in two separate universes, they want everyone to know that there is NO WAY Sonic is actually from Mobius.

Can I start by saying that that is highly disrespectful? All of that work of the 90s that helped cement Sonic in the pop culture status in everywhere but Japan and the best we get is a planetoid that's never seen?

I'm sorry, no, I simply cannot accept that irregardless of how much of a misunderstanding, via the explanation of the Moebius Loop to Sega of America's team, the whole concept of it was. This was a part of the Sonic lore and that is just spitting on all of us who grew to love that material. I demand to hear more about this Mars Bar flavoured Mobius via maybe John Carter styled Zondangan styled colonization by the ol' Egghead. 

If you're going to have it, use it. Please. 

Edited September 5, 2015 by LongcrierCat

[Nestor]

Can I start by saying that that is highly disrespectful? All of that work of the 90s that helped cement Sonic in the pop culture status in everywhere but Japan and the best we get is a planetoid that's never seen?

I'm reasonably certain that this isn't the case, and that "Mobius" refers to the non-human world (in contrast to Earth, the human world), not a third extra world.

[Your Vest Friend]

Can I start by saying that that is highly disrespectful? All of that work of the 90s that helped cement Sonic in the pop culture status in everywhere but Japan and the best we get is a planetoid that's never seen?

I think the staff at Japan found a lot of what the Western side did highly disrespectful to them as well, both at the time and now. The lore wasn't big in 1993, but it was still enough for them to know that sticking Sonic in a constant dystopian setting with a set of woodland anthros he has to stick around with or travelling around the planet and being drafted in as sheriff or saving sentient sausages weren't exactly in the developer's vision. SatAM always seemed to want to do what it wanted more than ever trying to adapt the games into a cartoon series format, especially with some of the decisions made by Hurst later on (Dragons being shoehorned into the importance of the world despite them never being in a game up to that point (and the first true dragon wouldn't appear until SA2 as a rare animal drop, never in an important position), and Nicole's frankly fucked up backstory being two of them). AoStH went about it a bit more faithfully, but it still was vastly different.

 

I'm sorry, no, I simply cannot accept that irregardless of how much of a misunderstanding, via the explanation of the Moebius Loop to Sega of America's team, the whole concept of it was. This was a part of the Sonic lore and that is just spitting on all of us who grew to love that material. I demand to hear more about this Mars Bar flavoured Mobius via maybe John Carter styled Zondangan styled colonization by the ol' Egghead. 

If you're going to have it, use it. Please. 

It was a part of lore through localisation, the Japanese never had it, so it makes sense as to why they'd ignore it when they made the move to internationalise the continuity and make it more in line with the original tellings of the classic games. That much is clear from things like Tails' story on how he met Sonic lining up with the Japanese story of being bullied for his Tails and coming across the Tornado, and not the one about him going an impromptu spin roll. Besides, it's not like they're the only ones who do this; Peach may have the Toadstool surname from American localisation, but when was the last time you heard that in the Mario games, and how frequently was it used beyond Super Mario 64? Probably less than Ivo Robotnik. And let's not get started on how the Koopalings were retconned to not being Boswer's kids after Bowser Jr entered the scene (the change of terminology for them started with Super Mario Advance 4, released a year after Sunshine), yet Western audiences were kept out of the loop on that until 2012, nine years later (the gap of knowing is more the emphasis as Japanese audiences got the kid thing too). 

[Your Vest Friend]

Uh, double post, but I have reason to suspect that the two worlds thing has been banded around since at least 2010. 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Uh, double post, but I have reason to suspect that the two worlds thing has been banded around since at least 2010. 

I assume you can't tell us why...but at any rate, that would gel with Eggman's reference to "Sonic's world" in Colors.

[Your Vest Friend]

Hmm? Oh no, I can easily tell.

I was just doing my usual perusing of the internet as a way to pass the time, but while looking for what I was meaning to search for, I came across a mention of someone in 2014 complaining of the two worlds thing, which of course is weird in our narrative because Aaron only said this stuff a few months ago. Anyway, checked it out, and it came from some interviews that were discovered in 2014, heralding from a Russian magazine published in January 2011, the poster for the reference in the link thinking that the actual date of the interview would likely have been circa TGS the prior year, in 2010. 

Actually, it looks like this forum itself had the interviews posted, but it was likely lost with the server wipe. I guess people saw it but overlooked it as a weird translation error at the time?