Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I guess people saw it but overlooked it as a weird translation error at the time?

Yeah, it's such a weird idea that without the proof being as clear and undeniable as possible, any Sonic fan would assume it was a mistake. But anyway, thanks for the awesome fact-finding.

[Sonic is a Care Bear]

Well that conflicts with with the idea that it's a recent change, but also puts AAUK's commentary in new context, since it was apparently unimportant enough to ever mention.

Now I am almost certain this is just leftover from Sonic X that hasn't been cleaned up.

[Salamander]

When was Sonic Colours released?  2010?  That fits, as there was a reference in that game to "Sonic's world."  I think that when people say "recent change," they mean that in broad terms - post-Unleashed as opposed to, say, post-Heroes.

...Though I still think the "two worlds" are not meant to be literal, and the only reason it was explicitly referred to in Colours was because it was written in the west by writers not close to Sonic Team.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

...Though I still think the "two worlds" are not meant to be literal, and the only reason it was explicitly referred to in Colours was because it was written in the west by writers not close to Sonic Team.

We can always hope. 

[Your Vest Friend]

Been watching the Brainscratch Comms playthrough of Sonic Adventure from years ago. It's pretty entertaining, especially with the image in Gamma's story. 

...Oh right, why I'm posting that in this topic. In retrospect, the fact that people were surprised that Knuckles can't utilise the Chaos Emeralds is probably the most surprising thing about Knuckles not utilising the Chaos Emeralds. Did people just collectively forget how completely uninterested and unknowing of them he was? He even wants to Sonic for advice about what role they might be playing in all this because he's unsure. That doesn't sound like someone who's gone super in the continuity prior. :/

[DavidTL]

Can I start by saying that that is highly disrespectful? All of that work of the 90s that helped cement Sonic in the pop culture status in everywhere but Japan and the best we get is a planetoid that's never seen?

I'm sorry, no, I simply cannot accept that irregardless of how much of a misunderstanding, via the explanation of the Moebius Loop to Sega of America's team, the whole concept of it was. This was a part of the Sonic lore and that is just spitting on all of us who grew to love that material. I demand to hear more about this Mars Bar flavoured Mobius via maybe John Carter styled Zondangan styled colonization by the ol' Egghead. 

If you're going to have it, use it. Please. 

First off, like one of the responses said, it could be considered disrespectful both ways. Remember, the original Sonic Team developed Sonic to appeal to a western audience, and Sega of America thought they needed to change things to have it properly appeal. Though in the end, how much of the "Mobius" storyline actually influenced Sonic's popularity? Everything about the game was unchanged in both style and substance, and Kintobor/Mobius was only referenced in the promotional comic book from 1991. Yes, Kintobor went on to be used in other auxiliary materials, and the name Mobius was used in both shows (which makes me wonder why Sega didn't try to have the cartoons stay closer to the games, especially the Saturday morning one), but I doubt that the name Mobius cemented Sonic into pop culture. If the game had been released with the same story it got in Japan, and everyone just called it Earth? No one would have batted an eye. Remember, those extreme 90's television commercials ignored most story elements. The current Japanese Sonic Team, even if they weren't there from the beginning, have no vested interest in the material created by the west in the 90's. They have no urge to use Mobius in a dedicated manner, or revisit the Kintobor/Robotnik origin, or even implement the Saturday morning cast into their games. They could have done that a long time ago if they wanted.

Also, the name Mobius did not come from a mistranslation. The interview  you're talking about very clearly has Mobius being used to reference location. If anything, the person translating was told to substitute whatever Naka originally said with the word Mobius to stick with the western canon. Not to mention that Mobius was used in 1991, prior to those mobius-loop-things in Sonic 2.

I guess I should mention that I'm not staunchly against Mobius/Kintobor or any of that. Those elements were important to me growing up as a Sonic fan in the 90's. I just understand that it was an alternative canon created by people who weren't involved in the games, and set up a storyline that could never properly be resolved because Sonic Team never set about building a tale that would focus on Sonic trying to turn Robotnik back into a kindly scientist.

Been watching the Brainscratch Comms playthrough of Sonic Adventure from years ago. It's pretty entertaining, especially with the image in Gamma's story. 

...Oh right, why I'm posting that in this topic. In retrospect, the fact that people were surprised that Knuckles can't utilise the Chaos Emeralds is probably the most surprising thing about Knuckles not utilising the Chaos Emeralds. Did people just collectively forget how completely uninterested and unknowing of them he was? He even wants to Sonic for advice about what role they might be playing in all this because he's unsure. That doesn't sound like someone who's gone super in the continuity prior. :/

Well, I'd be curious to see exactly what Knuckles says in the original Japanese. The translation for Sonic Adventure wasn't exactly the smoothest, and is begging to be retranslated by a third party. If he shares the exact same sentiments, then we could delve deeper into it. And I mean, maybe Knuckles isn't acting completely clueless in what he says in the English dialogue, anyway? The Chaos Emeralds haven't been his concern since the events of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. He doesn't seem to understand why his island isn't floating while they are there, especially if we are to go with the manual of Sonic 3 saying that he once guarded a set of seven before Eggman crashed the Death Egg onto his atoll. Having six just gathered around the Master Emerald, knowing they need to be kept away from Eggman and Chaos, but not fully understanding the legacy of his people and the truth of three thousand years ago? Consulting someone who has turned Super more than once and is certainly more worldly than Knuckles isn't that crazy of an idea.

[LongcrierCat]

Wait, that wasn't a misunderstanding on the Mobius location? I've always read that the interview was the reason people used the Mobius name for the planet and considering the timeline, 1992 for Sonic 2, 1993 for all of the comics and videogames in North America, it made sense why this would happen. The Mobius thing predates Sonic 2? 

I didn't know that. Thanks for informing me.

And I do think that the oversaturation of the franchise in the 90s contributed to the popularity of the series. I don't kid myself and I know that the glut of Sonic merchandising and shows and comics were all of the reason for the success story that is this franchise. It was all in the name of this series' marketing. And in that, many people got to know and love a wide variety of Sonic variations. The popularity of the North American characters and the Sonic the Comic can't be contested all too much by the continuation of the current line of Archie Sonic comics and the mere fact that Sonic the Comic Online is still around. People clearly loved these interpretations and continue to love them and I think it's fair to say that they contributed wholly to the success of the franchise. 

Harley Quinn would have never been a longstanding Batman villain if The Animated Series hadn't made her such a great and memorable character. Now I'm not saying that any of these characters aren't wholly flawed, I mean I'd love to see Sally's ingenuity challenged a lot more and have loved the current new line of writing for her in doing just this. But what I'm saying is that people like this stuff. Why would this stuff still be around if it wasn't popular? 

I mean, sales and popularity doesn't mean a thing is good. But if you can turn it into something good and maybe great? Then why not, right? 

Also, on Kintobor, this too is a thing that bothers me with the Western need of an Origin Story. However, a funny thing I imagined was a story written adaptation of Sonic 3 in which Robotnik introduces himself as Kintobor to Knuckles. I'd think that really funny. 

But I'm just sad with all of the possibilities. Someone has to realize that making an overall amalgamation of this stuff to make a more grounded continuity would be a good thing for everyone, right? It would work better than segueing this all off to a Two Worlds universe/multiverse that's too complicated for us to exclude all of this other established material when that can only add to the series. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by LongcrierCat

[Your Vest Friend]

Why? Because it has a very, very dedicated cult following as opposed to being a draw for the masses? I mean, the Sonic comic is one of those properties where the brand name plays a significant role in selling itself, and I know many who are just following it for the game material, or have an interest in the comic in general but no interest in the Freedom Fighters.

Harley Quinn was a rare case not just because she was exceedingly popular, but because she had a unique niche other characters in the Batman franchise couldn't overlap into. That wasn't the case for most of the TAS exclusive characters (one that comes to mind is Baby Doll), so they were never brought over. These old characters from all sorts of alternate media not only aren't that popular any more (nowadays the different alternate media are lucky to even have a passing mention in Sonic retrospectives), they don't really have a niche they can claim with the style of the games' writing. 

[Diogenes]

What the series needs is clarity, not a clusterfuck of every continuity it's ever had. Maybe steal a couple good ideas, if you can find any, but trying to mash together a bunch of wildly disparate takes on "Sonic" is basically asking for a situation where no one gets what they want. The games have created enough divisions on their own; I don't want my preferences to have to compete with stuff like the Freedom Fighters or Scourge or whoever showing up, too.

[Fake Hedgehog]

I like the "two worlds" explanation.I really, really like the two worlds explanation.  

Also there are pdfs of the Bible on SonicRetro.

[Badnik Mechanic]

I like the "two worlds" explanation.I really, really like the two worlds explanation.  

Also there are pdfs of the Bible on SonicRetro.

Where? 

[Fake Hedgehog]

Where? 

 http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=14100&st=0

right here man. It's the original Bible, which means it's worth everything yet nothing. Says stuff about how Dr. Robotnik used to be good and how and why he created the Chaos Emeralds. Got his ass tossed in a lab accident and turned evil.

What I really wanna know is what the Sonic Bible looked like in 2006.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Fake Hedgehog

[Blacklightning]

I'm pretty sure that's a completely different document that current canon disregards. Take a quick check of the OP again - it specifically says this one was made by the Japanese branch, whereas your link actually has a disclaimer that it was not based on it.

Also, to be frank, it's fucking horrible.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Blacklightning

[Badnik Mechanic]

Yeah that's well known. The one were talking about is the 2011/12 - 2015 which has never been posted.

[RDNexus]

I know this thread may be pretty much dead, but I've gotta leave my 2cents here (in case I haven't already and no longer remember ).

While the two worlds thing may be a bit helpful, it still doesn't fix the games universe as a whole. It only patched things in general, levaing lots of small details to be tackled on. And so, Iizuka or the said Japanese Bible only have that as an excuse for those who want a cohesive timeline and continuity for the games but still don't get it.

I'd sure love to see what that Japanese Bible has to offer to the fans, either in terms of game plot, game structure and development logs.

Too bad it seems such a nice thing may never come to happen, if the Bible is ID Tagged. By the way...what's the deal with that ID Tag?

[TB100]

The two worlds thing is the biggest bullshit i ever seen, so you're telling me that there happens to be some magicial portal somewhere in the Mystic Ruins, that just happens to transport Sonic from his (All anthro) world to the human world, What a bunch of f**king bullshit. the only way i can see this theory working, is if this "Second World"  is our very own real earth. (No Loops, No anthros, Real countries, Realistic Humans ETC) with the other one being Sonic's world as we know it. (Loops, Rings, Anthros and Cartoonlike Humans living together ETC) otherwise, i just don't see it working without it being a clusterf**k.

[Your Vest Friend]

It's not even all-Anthro, it's mostly just little animals. 

[Badnik Zero]

About this "two worlds"...

It just seems like this is Sega's shorthand way of sorting what type of game setting they're trying to create, if you get what I mean. The 16-bit games, with the checkered landscape and loops type is Sonic's world then, whereas games with cities and stuff no matter how wacky are still considered real world. We already know that Sega is terrible at keeping continuity between world building efforts, even where they have succeeded at building a world. Station Square, Soleanna, and Empire City for example, may as well all be standalone locales as far as we're concerned because they never really reference each other. The fan base assumes these games make a sort of continuity but nothing's really to say they exist in the same place at all, and only universes like Archie try to even place them on the same map. Sega starts from point zero each time in the world building effort. I guess it helps them that Sonic can be seen as a travelling type of character, because you never really have to explain why he shows up in a place. So from the perspective of Takashi Iizuka, maybe it all just means, "We're going to make a serious world building effort with this game", with real-type landmarks and cities on a map, or "We're going to make a game with minimal locations", like Sonic Heroes, zone to zone style. I doubt Sega takes it as seriously as we question it. It's probably just a guideline for them. I dunno?

Also it's interesting to note that other (especially early) Sonic universes have attempted to interpret Sonic's setting in ways that deal with zones. As if Sonic lives in a world filled with chaos portals that take him to all different game levels, with the "real" Earth as just another zone. Sonic X did a version of this when Sonic travelled from his original world to the world of Chris in the first episode. But again, this doesn't mean they're following this trend. I think it's just a guideline for how "real" they want to make the setting of a game in development.

[Nestor]

On 25/12/2016 at 9:32 AM, BlueBlur91 said:

the only way i can see this theory working, is if this "Second World"  is our very own real earth. (No Loops, No anthros, Real countries, Realistic Humans ETC) with the other one being Sonic's world as we know it. (Loops, Rings, Anthros and Cartoonlike Humans living together ETC) otherwise, i just don't see it working without it being a clusterf**k.

I was under the impression that this is what they were going for (although I don't think there'd be a distinction between 'realistic' and 'cartoonlike' humans) - twin planets of Earth (with more realistic environments, as seen in most of the modern era games) and the unnamed 'Mobius' planet (checkered hills etc, as seen in the classic era and arguably the modern games referencing "Sonic's World").

Of course this still leaves a whole mess of plot holes (how are the Chaos Emeralds present in both planets' histories at seemingly simultaneous times? Why are the ancient echidnas on Earth and not Sonic's World?), but they could just about manage to incorporate it if they so wished, if they get around to actually mentioning it in the games.

[Big Panda]

Random thought: what if by two worlds, they meant two "territories". Like, one half of the planet is mostly inhabited by humans and consists of man-made architecture and normal-looking landscapes, while the other is inhabited mainly by anthros and surreal landscapes and technology. And the two territories are divided by location but can easily crossover with no trouble?

EDIT: eh, forgot that Unleashed kinda shoots down that idea.

[PickleBrows]

To me, this whole 'two worlds' seems more like a design guideline when they're laying out the initial idea for a game rather than an in-universe explanation like people are interpreting it to be.

We know by now there's the Adventure, 06 and Unleashed world which puts Sonic and Co. in more realistic environments and the Heroes, Colours(?) and Lost World world which generally accommodates the more wacky environments.

Making this distinction would be kind of important in order for them to come up with suitable level themes based on which world they're working in and the story that's taking place within it. Granted levels like Pumpkin Hill kind of buck that trend but for the most part I think it's what they're going for.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Seems like any way we try to make sense of it, there's something that contradicts it.

[FantasticMrRobb]

I don't see what the big deal is. What SEGA says goes when it comes to Sonic, who are we to question his creators? lol

SEGA says there's 2 worlds; one with people and one with loopy checkered hills, that's fine by me. Makes sense for the most part.

[FriendBot]

I mean, I got over i myself but I can still see why it's still pretty dumb. It could be as simple as just having ONE world where both realistic and cartoony locations exist. Not that hard, there's no need to over-complicate things. SEGA may be have the say on what Sonic should do but that doesn't mean we can't question their choices, that's not how it works. Remember for a time, they thought it was a good idea to give Shadow a gun.

[Sephy]

What about if they return to the 'Land of the Sky' and 'Land of the Darkness' from Sonic OVA concept idea, being the latter the place where humans really live? That would explain Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Unleashed conceptions...