Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

[Jango]

Man this thread was pretty salty in the first pages.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

10 hours ago, FantasticMrRobb said:

I don't see what the big deal is. What SEGA says goes when it comes to Sonic, who are we to question his creators? lol

SEGA says there's 2 worlds; one with people and one with loopy checkered hills, that's fine by me. Makes sense for the most part.

So which one do the cities featuring highways with loop-de-loops and bouncy spring pads come from?

[Nestor]

16 minutes ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

So which one do the cities featuring highways with loop-de-loops and bouncy spring pads come from?

Earth - the humans just used mobian architects for those ones.

[FantasticMrRobb]

1 hour ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

So which one do the cities featuring highways with loop-de-loops and bouncy spring pads come from?

Earth with people? Are you trying to be smart or something?

[Badnik Mechanic]

7 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

So which one do the cities featuring highways with loop-de-loops and bouncy spring pads come from?

Probably ours considering we felt this was a safe design for a water park.

And yes that is a real slide which people went on. Yes real human beings designec and built that for actual human beings to ride!

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I remember that thing from somewhere. Didn't somebody die on that?

[Shadowlax]

22 hours ago, FantasticMrRobb said:

I don't see what the big deal is. What SEGA says goes when it comes to Sonic, who are we to question his creators?

Anyone making any type of criticism ever. 

I think only male hedgehogs being able to go " super" is crap. Also the two world things in terms of the sonic adventure games, kind of make no sense. Because you have to then pretend angel island exists in both worlds.

[Nestor]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Also the two world things in terms of the sonic adventure games, kind of make no sense. Because you have to then pretend angel island exists in both worlds.

Not necessarily - Angel Island could simply move between the two worlds periodically, depending on the nature of the 'gate', and have been in Sonic's world during S3&K and on Earth in SA1. Going from the games themselves, the island seems to have some kind of movement going on - it was in the middle of an ocean in S3&K and on the coast in SA1, so perhaps it follows a set flight path loop that happens to take it between the worlds.

Whether SEGA have actually ever stopped to think through this implication is another matter.

[Shadowlax]

19 minutes ago, Nestor said:

Not necessarily - Angel Island could simply move between the two worlds periodically, depending on the nature of the 'gate', and have been in Sonic's world during S3&K and on Earth in SA1. Going from the games themselves, the island seems to have some kind of movement going on - it was in the middle of an ocean in S3&K and on the coast in SA1, so perhaps it follows a set flight path loop that happens to take it between the worlds.

Whether SEGA have actually ever stopped to think through this implication is another matter.

Your literally makes everything make less sense. This is not a slight on you, you are trying to explain dumb story telling and your explanation while trying to add logic, is just bring up more questions.

If what you say is true, then the entire nature of Gun and shadow's creation is literally called into question. 

How characters are reliably traveling between " worlds" is being called into question

Where heroes takes place is being called into question.

[FantasticMrRobb]

36 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Anyone making any type of criticism ever. 

I think only male hedgehogs being able to go " super" is crap. Also the two world things in terms of the sonic adventure games, kind of make no sense. Because you have to then pretend angel island exists in both worlds.

Hmm. Is it wrong that I'm getting the idea that there are 2 separate worlds? Both are similar but in ways are very alike. What would be the issue with copies of certain things? (i.e. Chaos Emeralds, Sonic, Angel Island, etc.)

Been a while since I read the whole article or whatnot.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, FantasticMrRobb said:

Hmm. Is it wrong that I'm getting the idea that there are 2 separate worlds? Both are similar but in ways are very alike. What would be the issue with copies of certain things? (i.e. Chaos Emeralds, Sonic, Angel Island, etc.)

Been a while since I read the whole article or whatnot.

But they aren't copies, both have very particular histories , very particular architecture, culture , ect. So the problem isn't copies of things, but the problem is then explaining things.

Gun, and shadow's origin for example does not work in a two world system. 

[FantasticMrRobb]

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But they aren't copies, both have very particular histories , very particular architecture, culture , ect. So the problem isn't copies of things, but the problem is then explaining things.

Gun, and shadow's origin for example does not work in a two world system. 

I didn't mean copies in that way then I guess, but both have the same things, bur are used in different ways. That would make a little more sense.

Actually GUN wouldn't be too affected by the two world system would it? Shadow however, that's a good point. When you have the two world theory; Shadow's origin would be mainly from the "Earth" world; but then there wouldn't be much of a way to explain how he got there in games like Sonic Heroes or...wait, wouldn't that be the only main Sonic title that takes place in the Sonic world that features Shadow? It's weird because it ties in with an "Earth" world game.

Dear god...could the special stages in Heroes be the gate that connects worlds? Or would that be the 7 World Ring door from Sonic and the Secret Rings?

Lol I'm totally kidding by the way.

[Shadowlax]

It would, as shadow's existence wont let you forget, gun used to be super evil and murder whole swaths of people hiding to protect them selves. If normal earth had an accelerated technological basis, and had evil gun going around. Especially with the history of the earth is based on, Gun would most likely have been probably murdering a lot of people in sonic's world trying to get to the emeralds especially the master emerald. No way an evil government organization with enough money to fund a gigantic space station with a lazer strong enough to destroy half of the moon doesn't go 

" You know those objects of powers those people have over there... we should murder them and take that " 

And before someone of you say, maybe they didn't know everything. They explored enough to be able to find that sonic ruin, 50 years before sonic got there in the classic games. No way, they don't in that situation murder a whole swath of echidina for that thing.  

Like real world concepts like corrupt government organizations don't mesh well with what they were doing before, if objects that could warp space time were discovered in the non melted parts of Antarctica right now, every single government would be tripping over their damn shoes trying to get that.

[TB100]

I don't really trust iizuka when it comes to Sonic canon. Seriously he tends to make the most haphazard excuses for why things are the way they are, and tends to flip flop on a moments notice. (Remember the no classic sonic statement,) so I just tend to ignore his statements most of the time, and just enjoy the games.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

He should really allow someone else -- say, a story editor of some kind -- just take the ideas they have and massage them all together into something that makes sense.

[Your Vest Friend]

Except this isn't just Iizuka's interpretation, this is what Sonic Team takes it as. It's just that things don't fit together as nicely as fans may want (Aaron has explicitly said that latter bit). 

[Badnik Mechanic]

11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Anyone making any type of criticism ever. 

I think only male hedgehogs being able to go " super" is crap. 

A grand example of someone not giving good criticism.

Why is it crap?

It makes sense to have some kind of limit to that ability if you ask me. Otherwise any old Tom Dick and Harry can save the day.

[Nestor]

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

It would, as shadow's existence wont let you forget, gun used to be super evil and murder whole swaths of people hiding to protect them selves. If normal earth had an accelerated technological basis, and had evil gun going around. Especially with the history of the earth is based on, Gun would most likely have been probably murdering a lot of people in sonic's world trying to get to the emeralds especially the master emerald. No way an evil government organization with enough money to fund a gigantic space station with a lazer strong enough to destroy half of the moon doesn't go 

" You know those objects of powers those people have over there... we should murder them and take that " 

And before someone of you say, maybe they didn't know everything. They explored enough to be able to find that sonic ruin, 50 years before sonic got there in the classic games. No way, they don't in that situation murder a whole swath of echidina for that thing.  

Like real world concepts like corrupt government organizations don't mesh well with what they were doing before, if objects that could warp space time were discovered in the non melted parts of Antarctica right now, every single government would be tripping over their damn shoes trying to get that.

I'd perhaps disagree that GUN is 'super evil' - they're ruthless and subscribe at times to an 'ends justifies the means' philosophy, but at the end of the day, their goal is protecting the world, not ruling it. The ARK massacre, while unquestionably wrong, was carried out with the intention of erasing Gerald Robotnik's research as they feared it was too dangerous - they didn't want the chaos emeralds and the eclipse cannon, they wanted no-one to have that power.

Remember also that the gems are semi-mythical and that they cannot be used without special technology by non-hedgehog males - technology that GUN takes extreme steps to mothball and bury. This is presumably why GUN seems to have no interest in the emeralds following the ARK massacre - after all, they're not exactly hidden, Station Square has publically showcased at least two of them!

In this way, the two world thing should not screw up Shadow's backstory as GUN would not invade Sonic's world for the emeralds anymore than they would have stolen the emeralds from Station Square. The only other minor anomaly - Shadow being on what is presumably Sonic's world in Heroes - can be easily explained by Eggman simply moving him to one of his bases on that planet.

[AngelSlayerN64]

I don't really have any problems with the way Takashi Iizuka does things. He basically debunked the infamous theory of Silver being a descendant of Shadow, and also gave us the proper origin story of Eggman Nega. So, he's okay in my book. I just wish we could see Super Shadow and Super Silver return sometime soon.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Mayor D said:

A grand example of someone not giving good criticism.

Why is it crap?

It makes sense to have some kind of limit to that ability if you ask me. Otherwise any old Tom Dick and Harry can save the day.

Because it seems inherently kind of sexist and unessciarly restricts a whole gender from being " special " so... I thought that wouldn't really needed to be explained, I thought that would be obvious but ok. I also don't like the chaos emeralds as a concept at all as a compound ontop of that, one of the things I think sonic boom got right was no chaos emeralds, sure there are mystical objects, but the only who seems to be able to use chaos powers is shadow, so that makes him special. It allows everyone to be special in their own way, and strides made to be made because their own will besides " this is the transformation in this game" . 

[Your Vest Friend]

I don't think limiting the Super forms to male hedgehogs was (intentionally) sexist, especially when the only two who were retconned out of it were both male too. Like I said in a status yesterday, it seems that Sonic Team were trying to theme it around the idea of past, present and future, so they just restricted it to the characters who represented that (ie Sonic, Shadow and Silver). It's not like every male hedgehog that's ever been born would have the capacity to go super, and it's not like there aren't alternate forms others can get (the only one known so far being exclusive to a female character, in fact). 

[Shadowlax]

8 hours ago, Nestor said:

I'd perhaps disagree that GUN is 'super evil'

You remember that time they literally murdered an entire and entire arc full of people to hide their own bullshit and then trapped a living sentient life in the basement of a government facility in a comatose state for 50 years. That's evil , that is what fucking sith would do.

Quote

- they're ruthless and subscribe at times to an 'ends justifies the means' philosophy, but at the end of the day, their goal is protecting the world, not ruling it. The ARK massacre, while unquestionably wrong, was carried out with the intention of erasing Gerald Robotnik's research as they feared it was too dangerous - they didn't want the chaos emeralds and the eclipse cannon, they wanted no-one to have that power.

They were investigating immortality, it wasn't just " Oh Gerald seems nice we should give that nice youngster a few bucks to do his since project when he gets home from school" . Project shadow is also something that they themselves were also investigating, and when that proved fruitless, they murdered everyone. And bonus, in their report they got to frame it as gerald going against orders. 

Also they knew shadow existed, so that means the entirety of sonic adventure 2 is them literally trying to frame sonic and lock him up, so the world doesn't have to know about shadow. They were  about to put someone in jail possibly for life, for some shit that they knew . Everyone says " how did they confuse shadow with sonic" they didn't ,they knew. They were going to just lock him up anyway , so they had a scape goat for their bullshit. Luckily sonic is resourceful. 

Also while this isn't exactly " canon" in the comic, one of the most honorable men in the entire comic right now , Sally's dad. Even says " yeah they used to be super fucked up , i don't really trust them even still " paraphrasing, but yeah. Even one of the nicest men in all of sonic, who saw shadow and knew what he was and went " this guy is ok" the guy who planned to destroy the earth once. And he's less worse than the GUN. When blowing up the planet registers higher on a fuckery scale than something else, you are evil. Or at least were. 

 

 

It has come to my attention that maybe GUN is more of the issue than the two worlds theory is TBH. So I have removed this part of the argument, because maybe its less two worlds that make no sense and maybe its gun as an entity not needing to exist after sa2. And who's existence continues to make little to sense when you think about in context with the rest of sonic. So you got me, especially on that heroes part good job. 

 

5 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

I don't think limiting the Super forms to male hedgehogs was (intentionally) sexist, especially when the only two who were retconned out of it were both male too.

While that's true, and The whole DBZ imitation thing , is another problem. Um I can't say its " unintentionally " I don't think sonic treats... any of its feel male character well, sticks and boom amy are nice pace changes, hopefully the mentality sticks. Heh.. hehehe

Quote

 

Like I said in a status yesterday, it seems that Sonic Team were trying to theme it around the idea of past, present and future, so they just restricted it to the characters who represented that (ie Sonic, Shadow and Silver).

That's a whole other cabal of stupid. 

Quote

It's not like every male hedgehog that's ever been born would have the capacity to go super, and it's not like there aren't alternate forms others can get (the only one known so far being exclusive to a female character, in fact). 

And while that doens't mean every male hedgehog can't go super, that does mean every female hedgehog can't. And that's messed up. And as for blaze, remember they completely removed her from her world to basically be silver's side kick. If sonic 06 was good and successful, they would have willingly removed this characters makes story, super form and everything to serve something else. Which is kind of the treatment a lot of female sonic characters got tbh. You have to the tag along. Not to mention the weird " I have small breasts " jokes they were strait up going to put in that game. Their treatment of female sonic characters for a while ( and kinda still now ) is weird. 

And even after , instead of silver's characters history getting the axe and having to be thrown in flux, it was hers. And IIRC correct me if i'm wrong Ian said using her world at points can get difficult because of reasons like that. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Because it seems inherently kind of sexist and unessciarly restricts a whole gender from being " special " so... I thought that wouldn't really needed to be explained, I thought that would be obvious but ok.

I wish I could take my uni as seriously as some take this series.

[FantasticMrRobb]

1 hour ago, AngelSlayerN64 said:

He basically debunked the infamous theory of Silver being a descendant of Shadow

I had no idea it was infamous. I mean, I've seen a few people joke around and compare it to Dragon Ball's Vegeta and Trunks, but that's about it.

51 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

I don't think limiting the Super forms to male hedgehogs was (intentionally) sexist, especially when the only two who were retconned out of it were both male too. Like I said in a status yesterday, it seems that Sonic Team were trying to theme it around the idea of past, present and future, so they just restricted it to the characters who represented that (ie Sonic, Shadow and Silver). It's not like every male hedgehog that's ever been born would have the capacity to go super, and it's not like there aren't alternate forms others can get (the only one known so far being exclusive to a female character, in fact). 

I think that's actually a really good idea, it makes it a whole lot easier to pick out who can and can't go Super.

But, they could have just limited it to those who have some kind of connection with the Chaos Force, like Knuckles since he's the Master Emerald Guardian or Shadow since all his Chaos powers and whatnot. Then again, that could be bad since Sonic doesn't exactly have a literal connection...that I could think of at the moment anyways. But hey, he's the main character so...perks!

[Your Vest Friend]

Chaos force isn't really a thing in the games though, you just have the Chaos Emeralds with one power, and the Master Emerald which can neutralise them somehow. Knuckles doesn't have a connection to the Chaos Emeralds directly (outside of non-canon bonus stuff in Sonic 3), so no super form for him, by that method. 

What also weakens it is that neutralising the Chaos Emeralds isn't exclusive to the Master Emerald, so it doesn't need to be the same chaos power itself to work on them. Eggman technically did it in Unleashed via 100% artificial means.