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Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

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I don't really have any problems with the way Takashi Iizuka does things. He basically debunked the infamous theory of Silver being a descendant of Shadow, and also gave us the proper origin story of Eggman Nega. So, he's okay in my book. I just wish we could see Super Shadow and Super Silver return sometime soon.

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2 hours ago, Mayor D said:

A grand example of someone not giving good criticism.

Why is it crap?

It makes sense to have some kind of limit to that ability if you ask me. Otherwise any old Tom Dick and Harry can save the day.

Because it seems inherently kind of sexist and unessciarly restricts a whole gender from being " special " so... I thought that wouldn't really needed to be explained, I thought that would be obvious but ok. I also don't like the chaos emeralds as a concept at all as a compound ontop of that, one of the things I think sonic boom got right was no chaos emeralds, sure there are mystical objects, but the only who seems to be able to use chaos powers is shadow, so that makes him special. It allows everyone to be special in their own way, and strides made to be made because their own will besides " this is the transformation in this game" . 

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I don't think limiting the Super forms to male hedgehogs was (intentionally) sexist, especially when the only two who were retconned out of it were both male too. Like I said in a status yesterday, it seems that Sonic Team were trying to theme it around the idea of past, present and future, so they just restricted it to the characters who represented that (ie Sonic, Shadow and Silver). It's not like every male hedgehog that's ever been born would have the capacity to go super, and it's not like there aren't alternate forms others can get (the only one known so far being exclusive to a female character, in fact). 

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8 hours ago, Nestor said:

I'd perhaps disagree that GUN is 'super evil'

You remember that time they literally murdered an entire and entire arc full of people to hide their own bullshit and then trapped a living sentient life in the basement of a government facility in a comatose state for 50 years. That's evil , that is what fucking sith would do.

Quote

- they're ruthless and subscribe at times to an 'ends justifies the means' philosophy, but at the end of the day, their goal is protecting the world, not ruling it. The ARK massacre, while unquestionably wrong, was carried out with the intention of erasing Gerald Robotnik's research as they feared it was too dangerous - they didn't want the chaos emeralds and the eclipse cannon, they wanted no-one to have that power.

They were investigating immortality, it wasn't just " Oh Gerald seems nice we should give that nice youngster a few bucks to do his since project when he gets home from school" . Project shadow is also something that they themselves were also investigating, and when that proved fruitless, they murdered everyone. And bonus, in their report they got to frame it as gerald going against orders. 

Also they knew shadow existed, so that means the entirety of sonic adventure 2 is them literally trying to frame sonic and lock him up, so the world doesn't have to know about shadow. They were  about to put someone in jail possibly for life, for some shit that they knew . Everyone says " how did they confuse shadow with sonic" they didn't ,they knew. They were going to just lock him up anyway , so they had a scape goat for their bullshit. Luckily sonic is resourceful. 

Also while this isn't exactly " canon" in the comic, one of the most honorable men in the entire comic right now , Sally's dad. Even says " yeah they used to be super fucked up , i don't really trust them even still " paraphrasing, but yeah. Even one of the nicest men in all of sonic, who saw shadow and knew what he was and went " this guy is ok" the guy who planned to destroy the earth once. And he's less worse than the GUN. When blowing up the planet registers higher on a fuckery scale than something else, you are evil. Or at least were. 

 

 

It has come to my attention that maybe GUN is more of the issue than the two worlds theory is TBH. So I have removed this part of the argument, because maybe its less two worlds that make no sense and maybe its gun as an entity not needing to exist after sa2. And who's existence continues to make little to sense when you think about in context with the rest of sonic. So you got me, especially on that heroes part good job. 

 

5 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

I don't think limiting the Super forms to male hedgehogs was (intentionally) sexist, especially when the only two who were retconned out of it were both male too.

While that's true, and The whole DBZ imitation thing , is another problem. Um I can't say its " unintentionally " I don't think sonic treats... any of its feel male character well, sticks and boom amy are nice pace changes, hopefully the mentality sticks. Heh.. hehehe

Quote

 

Like I said in a status yesterday, it seems that Sonic Team were trying to theme it around the idea of past, present and future, so they just restricted it to the characters who represented that (ie Sonic, Shadow and Silver).

That's a whole other cabal of stupid. 

Quote

It's not like every male hedgehog that's ever been born would have the capacity to go super, and it's not like there aren't alternate forms others can get (the only one known so far being exclusive to a female character, in fact). 

And while that doens't mean every male hedgehog can't go super, that does mean every female hedgehog can't. And that's messed up. And as for blaze, remember they completely removed her from her world to basically be silver's side kick. If sonic 06 was good and successful, they would have willingly removed this characters makes story, super form and everything to serve something else. Which is kind of the treatment a lot of female sonic characters got tbh. You have to the tag along. Not to mention the weird " I have small breasts " jokes they were strait up going to put in that game. Their treatment of female sonic characters for a while ( and kinda still now ) is weird. 

And even after , instead of silver's characters history getting the axe and having to be thrown in flux, it was hers. And IIRC correct me if i'm wrong Ian said using her world at points can get difficult because of reasons like that. 

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Because it seems inherently kind of sexist and unessciarly restricts a whole gender from being " special " so... I thought that wouldn't really needed to be explained, I thought that would be obvious but ok.

I wish I could take my uni as seriously as some take this series.

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1 hour ago, AngelSlayerN64 said:

He basically debunked the infamous theory of Silver being a descendant of Shadow

I had no idea it was infamous. I mean, I've seen a few people joke around and compare it to Dragon Ball's Vegeta and Trunks, but that's about it.

51 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

I don't think limiting the Super forms to male hedgehogs was (intentionally) sexist, especially when the only two who were retconned out of it were both male too. Like I said in a status yesterday, it seems that Sonic Team were trying to theme it around the idea of past, present and future, so they just restricted it to the characters who represented that (ie Sonic, Shadow and Silver). It's not like every male hedgehog that's ever been born would have the capacity to go super, and it's not like there aren't alternate forms others can get (the only one known so far being exclusive to a female character, in fact). 

I think that's actually a really good idea, it makes it a whole lot easier to pick out who can and can't go Super.

But, they could have just limited it to those who have some kind of connection with the Chaos Force, like Knuckles since he's the Master Emerald Guardian or Shadow since all his Chaos powers and whatnot. Then again, that could be bad since Sonic doesn't exactly have a literal connection...that I could think of at the moment anyways. But hey, he's the main character so...perks!

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Chaos force isn't really a thing in the games though, you just have the Chaos Emeralds with one power, and the Master Emerald which can neutralise them somehow. Knuckles doesn't have a connection to the Chaos Emeralds directly (outside of non-canon bonus stuff in Sonic 3), so no super form for him, by that method. 

What also weakens it is that neutralising the Chaos Emeralds isn't exclusive to the Master Emerald, so it doesn't need to be the same chaos power itself to work on them. Eggman technically did it in Unleashed via 100% artificial means. 

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42 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

I wish I could take my uni as seriously as some take this series.

Eh, or I can criticize elements of the series that I don't actively like. Just because something is meant for children, doesn't mean we can't criticize elements of it, it also doesn't mean we can't criticize  unfortunate elements of it that happen to be racist, sexist ect. Because if that was impossible most people who looked like me in cartoons would still be horrible stereotypes. Criticism is how things get better,criticism is how we realize the things we have just been putting in our entertainment might not be as good as we thought, it isn't so much as taking seriously as its having an active interest in your entertainment.

And please don't try and  devalue my opinion with drive by pointless statements. 

Thank you 

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6 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

You can criticise it as being sexist all you want.

Just don't expect me to take it seriously when it's super forms being akin to sexual equality in Sonic the fucking hedgehog.

So in order. 

One, what characters can and cant do in a series depending on who they are, what they look like and what gender they are. Can have , intentional or nonintentional implications. These implications can sometimes be unfortunate. 

Two, if we decided that everything was " just a cartoon " or " this is just comics" nothing what change. Just because its in cartoon doesn't mean its kind of fucked up. If you are unable to take that seriously to some degree, why are you even on this forum. Why are on any sonic forum, because the implication here is, you already like sonic a lot more seriously, than most people, to the degree in which you take an active interest to join communities to talk about that. So your statement is already contradictory by nature of you even being on this forum. 

So are you going to make an actual point, are you going to do this "drive by pointless statements thing" here all day?

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8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Two, if we decided that everything was " just a cartoon " or " this is just comics" nothing what change. If you are unable to take that seriously to some degree, why are you even on this forum. Why are on any sonic forum, because the implication here is, you already like sonic a lot more seriously, than most people, to the degree in which you take an active interest to join communities to talk about that. So your statement is already contradictory by nature of you even being on this forum. 

Mate... I'm not the one trying to convince people that Iizuka and possibly Naka are somehow sexist or backwards with their stance on gender equality because they have a rule about Super forms being limited to male hedgehogs.

 

Where as others have pointed out, it's almost certainly a narrative/story reason otherwise what would be the point in anyone having that ability when anyone could resolve the final boss at the end of the game.

 

Plus everyone knows that if Omachoa went super he would punch a hole through the game world and our own.

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12 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Mate... I'm not the one trying to convince people that Iizuka and possibly Naka are somehow sexist or backwards with their stance on gender equality because they have a rule about Super forms being limited to male hedgehogs.

One , you are doing that. " are you calling me a _____ist thing " thing, they don't have to be women hating sexists, they can however use story elements that are sexist. They can also however be exposed to a lot of entertainment that values a male hero more than a female one ( like DBZ for example) and that can influence their futur artistic endevour by propagating similar themes.  Along with that, restricting a power up to one gender,  for no reason is kind of sexist. Especially when that power up , makes that other gender, more important.  Yes even though its restricted to a race, its still kind of messed up , that the men of that race are the only ones who get to be super heroes. 

12 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

 

Where as others have pointed out, it's almost certainly a narrative/story reason otherwise what would be the point in anyone having that ability when anyone could resolve the final boss at the end of the game.

You realize you can creative narratives that are kind of sexist right. You can do it with out knowing it , it can be subconscious in a way. " Its the way things are" some people put it as. 

Also wanna point out, used other examples of the sonic series treating female characters poorly above.. .you seem have ignored that though. There are also more examples yet to be used.

12 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

 

Plus everyone knows that if Omachoa went super he would punch a hole through the game world and our own.

If Omochao went super, he would help you in all games whether you wanted it or not. 

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So @Shadowlax what if they 

· do this for story purposes later on

· don't think that with how every other female -minus blaze- might not be able to handle the extreme surge of energy from that

Bonus: Or what if you remember that TIKAL while dead or vanished or whatever still used the power of the chaos emeralds as a female

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I think it's ridiculous to limit super forms to the male hedgehogs. They're basically being treated like the saiyans of the series. I can understand that giving super forms to everyone would've been ridiculous and make it lose its charm, but IMO Silver shouldn't have gotten one, and Knuckles should've gotten his back (and no... I don't mean a golden shield). Why should male hedgehogs be gods?

The two worlds thing makes zero sense to me. I understand that Sonic and co. are fictional, but their environment has to make a little sense and be more consistent. That's why I believe the world Sonic and friends live on should've been Mobius. Now, I know what you're thinking, "but that would make Eggman the only human", just change his backstory. Maybe he made a spaceship and crash landed on Mobius, where he becomes xenophobic and tries to take over. Having the games take place on Earth and some unknown planet/world at the same time just makes no sense.  Lol A gate? Just make one planet and leave it at that.

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5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You remember that time they literally murdered an entire and entire arc full of people to hide their own bullshit and then trapped a living sentient life in the basement of a government facility in a comatose state for 50 years. That's evil , that is what fucking sith would do.

No, that's the kind of thing that actual world governments would do and have done in real life. As is the other things outlined in your post about Adventure 2's plot.

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

One , you are doing that. " are you calling me a _____ist thing " thing, they don't have to be women hating sexists, they can however use story elements that are sexist. They can also however be exposed to a lot of entertainment that values a male hero more than a female one ( like DBZ for example) and that can influence their futur artistic endevour by propagating similar themes.  Along with that, restricting a power up to one gender,  for no reason is kind of sexist. Especially when that power up , makes that other gender, more important.  Yes even though its restricted to a race, its still kind of messed up , that the men of that race are the only ones who get to be super heroes.

What is the title of the franchise again?

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4 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Chaos force isn't really a thing in the games though, you just have the Chaos Emeralds with one power, and the Master Emerald which can neutralise them somehow. Knuckles doesn't have a connection to the Chaos Emeralds directly (outside of non-canon bonus stuff in Sonic 3), so no super form for him, by that method. 

What also weakens it is that neutralising the Chaos Emeralds isn't exclusive to the Master Emerald, so it doesn't need to be the same chaos power itself to work on them. Eggman technically did it in Unleashed via 100% artificial means. 

I always wanted to know how Sonic has a connection to the chaos force. I keep hearing because he is the embodiment of chaos. How is he the embodiment and how does he have a connection?

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SEGA's been pretty obvious about not wanting anyone other than Sonic to have a super form, but Super Shadow and Silver are (or were, around the (presumed) time this "rule" was implemented) a bit too recent to sweep under the rug compared to, y'know, Tails and Knuckles that one time in 1994.

These days I honestly don't really mind Sonic/Shadow/Silver being the only ones to have super forms. That said, if others were to have super modes, you could always give them different transformation methods and naming schemes, ala Sol Emeralds and Burning Blaze. For one thing, that's probably one reason she's the only exception, but as a bonus, it'd mean more variety than just Super ______ all the time. I highly doubt anything like that would happen, especially with pre-existing characters, but...eh, I'm just spitballing here.

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34 minutes ago, Tornado said:

 

What is the title of the franchise again?

Sonic, but that really means nothing. To give an example, the legend of zelda is named after, well zelda, but zelda seldom gets to do anything , its often a point people argue when considering future games when wanting to play as other characters or possibly interpreting link as other genders. And on the flip side there are a bunch of franchises named after A character where you play , watch, read as bunches of different characters that do cool shit , different genders too

So, If I may ask, what is your point?

Because if your point is " Well its called sonic " , that's not a good point. I hope i'm interpreting this wrong. 

1 hour ago, Zoroark & Flare said:

So @Shadowlax what if they 

· do this for story purposes later on

· don't think that with how every other female -minus blaze- might not be able to handle the extreme surge of energy from that

Bonus: Or what if you remember that TIKAL while dead or vanished or whatever still used the power of the chaos emeralds as a female

Why can't any  other female " survive the surge of energy " ,  why is the only character who is a woman that could only go super almost got her super privileges removed. To be a side kick to another character, if sonic 06 was successful she would be silver's side kick. Why is it special that's she's the only girl who can go super, if someone random asshole from the future who no one likes can go super, why cant more girls go super?

Why make the arbitrary gender spit , even in the first place? Why?

 

9 minutes ago, Celestia said:

 

These days I honestly don't really mind Sonic/Shadow/Silver being the only ones to have super forms. That said, if others were to have super modes, you could always give them different transformation methods and naming schemes, ala Sol Emeralds and Burning Blaze. For one thing, that's probably one reason she's the only exception, but as a bonus, it'd mean more variety than just Super ______ all the time. I highly doubt anything like that would happen, especially with pre-existing characters, but...eh, I'm just spitballing here.

I think this would be cool if they did this, not only having everyone be unique  would add a value to other characters. In the case of say shadow, he's a character you can go back and totally say " he got new super form because he's an alien " or knuckles who possibly has a different connection to chaos emeralds and justify him having a different type of super form. Although I would much prefer the idea of chaos emeralds not existing, i'm a fan of how sonic does that. By taking them away , what makes folks special is just their talents and not connection to random maguffin. But yeah, I like your idea

( also I don't know, if I were making toys that would probably be a good way to sell toys) 

And on the unconscious thing, i'm not gonna sega and sonic team are filled with horrible sexists who hate women, but there's just enough stuff in sonic who's explanation is " Because girl " when I gets a bit unfortunate. That said again, Boom amy and sticks are great strides, so... Hopefuly that continues because those two are dope. 

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5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Why make the arbitrary gender spit , even in the first place? Why?

It's unfortunately worded (assuming "male hedgehogs only" is how SEGA phrased it?? I honestly don't remember because we heard about this years ago--does anyone have the exact quote?), but I think it's safe to assume the intent is "The only characters we consider to have canon super forms are these three, who are 'male hedgehogs'." It's not that that's what makes them special, it's that it was faster to specify that instead of saying "Sonic, Shadow, and Silver".

For the record, I don't disagree that this franchise treats the girl characters badly. I just don't think Not Having Super Forms is an example of that, if only because SEGA excluded everyone that isn't those three + Blaze. And that includes Tails and Knuckles who sort of* had super forms at one point.

Spoiler

*I say "sort of" because in retrospect Super Tails and Super/Hyper Knuckles seem very Non-Canon Bonus-y from the start. I mean, their designs don't change (i.e. colour swap & some other details here and there) the way Sonic, Shadow, Blaze, and Silver do, they kinda just...flash on and off.

 

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

So, If I may ask, what is your point?

It's not an "arbitrary gender split." It's "narrative focus." The series has over a dozen male characters. Since the storylines of the classic titles have been irrelevant for nearly twenty years now, the three playable characters who happened to have games revolve around their actions also happen to have been the only ones to have shown super forms; to the extent that the fact that they could do so also happened to be major plot points in their respective storylines when it was first revealed.

The series really only has three repeat female characters. Whether that is considered a problem or not, only one of them has ever really been very relevant to a game's story and directly comparable to the one the series is about, and that one also happens to have had a form like the super forms as well. It's doubtful this game franchise, that spent a good decade ripping off every shonen narrative device in existence, merely coincidentally had it so the characters that were most like cliched shonen protagonists are the ones who have specific kind of shonen-y story set pieces occur to them.

 

 

 

Hence why the series is called "Sonic the Hedgehog" and not "Amy Rose" is relevant. If Sega wanted to dip into the Adventure 2 well again, I don't doubt they could come up with another female character with a super form equivalent for everyone to be surprised about just as soon as they would a male one. Word of God doesn't really mean dick in this series and never really has, so someone from Sega saying "only male hedgehogs can be super" doesn't mean much; even assuming it is an official statement that was interpreted correctly.

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It's also not inconceivable that SEGA may move towards there being some sort of genetic component to chaos energy manipulation that is for some reason particularly strong in male hedgehogs (which would also neatly explain the otherwise somewhat random choice of Gerald Robotnik using the hedgehog as the basis for the Ultimate Lifeform).

This would allow them to maintain a narrative focus for Super forms as mentioned by Tornado while providing a reason that would make sense in-universe.

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1 hour ago, Tornado said:

It's not an "arbitrary gender split." It's "narrative focus."

Your narrative focus can be  on an arbitrary gender split,

 

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

The series really only has three repeat female characters. Whether that is considered a problem or not, only one of them has ever really been very relevant to a game's story and directly comparable to the one the series is about, and that one also happens to have had a form like the super forms as well.

And it almost immediately got taken away, and kind of never got referenced again. And she's the only one, and I think maybe that's a bit of problem. 

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

 

It's doubtful this game franchise, that spent a good decade ripping off every shonen narrative device in existence, merely coincidentally had it so the characters that were most like cliched shonen protagonists are the ones who have specific kind of shonen-y story set pieces occur to them.

Yeah, its still kind of shitty its mostly dudes and the onetime it was a girl they fucked it up. 

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

Hence why the series is called "Sonic the Hedgehog" and not "Amy Rose" is relevant.

It still isn't. because you can just include instances that make female characters more important,( because although they messed it up right after, they did try it once )  but ok. 

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

If Sega wanted to dip into the Adventure 2 well again, I don't doubt they could come up with another female character with a super form equivalent for everyone to be surprised about just as soon as they would a male one.

They could , maybe. But the last time they did that they almost immediately took it away to serve a male character, and proceed to then to procceded for quite a while to not reference that characters previous existence, nor their ability to go super. So please forgive me, if don't believe that really. 

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

Word of God doesn't really mean dick in this series and never really has, so someone from Sega saying "only male hedgehogs can be super" doesn't mean much; even assuming it is an official statement that was interpreted correctly.

It kind of does, the word of god changes from time to time, but its very much relevant, and there are constants. The guy's designing sonic boom, and the folks writing the comic books do have guidelines some stricter than others. But there is definitely a " This is how this works right now" situation on what they can or cannot reference or include. It changes it evolves, but it exists. 

 

39 minutes ago, Nestor said:

It's also not inconceivable that SEGA may move towards there being some sort of genetic component to chaos energy manipulation that is for some reason particularly strong in male hedgehogs

Why that genetic mutation is only specific to men, is a question I will ask though. 

39 minutes ago, Nestor said:

(which would also neatly explain the otherwise somewhat random choice of Gerald Robotnik using the hedgehog as the basis for the Ultimate Lifeform.

This is actually super interesting for another reason.

39 minutes ago, Nestor said:

This would allow them to maintain a narrative focus for Super forms as mentioned by Tornado while providing a reason that would make sense in-universe.

I don't think in regards to why its just dudes, wouldn't make sense. ( and it still wouldn't make sense for echidna's to have little to no connection despite guarding the damn things ). 

But it is interesting for other reasons, while I don't agree with some of your points. You still have very good points and ideas. Good show. 

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For me, this "only male hedgehogs" thing comes down to whether it's descriptive or prescriptive. If it's just describing the situation, where the only characters known to have Super forms happen to be male hedgehogs, but in theory other people could too, I'm mostly fine with that. If it's prescriptive, saying that there is something about being a male hedgehog that allows them to have Super forms and no one who isn't a male hedgehog could...that's a really weird reason. And I'm coming at this from a position of wanting to limit forms and who has them as much as possible, so I'm not saying I want more characters to have Super forms, just that the reason for a character being able to wield infinite power should be something more meaningful than sex or species.

58 minutes ago, Nestor said:

It's also not inconceivable that SEGA may move towards there being some sort of genetic component to chaos energy manipulation that is for some reason particularly strong in male hedgehogs (which would also neatly explain the otherwise somewhat random choice of Gerald Robotnik using the hedgehog as the basis for the Ultimate Lifeform).

Ech. I really don't see any good coming from a reveal like that...like, what's the meaning to draw from that? Good wins not because of its virtues but because of its species?

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10 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

But it is interesting for other reasons, while I don't agree with some of your points. You still have very good points and ideas. Good show. 

Many thanks! :)

10 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Why that genetic mutation is only specific to men, is a question I will ask though.  

I think you're perhaps you're looking at this from the wrong angle - SEGA haven't decided that only male hedgehogs can go Super because girls are icky or something, it's because they only want the main hero to do it so that it's special rather than being possible for everyone and their dog, i.e. narrative focus.

Shadow can do it too as he's the Ultimate Lifeform and Silver... they kind of wrote themselves into a corner with him and had to have him do it so he didn't just drop off the end of '06. Thus, drawing the line at them, the main thing connecting them is their gender and species, hence the delineation.

It should also be noted that Knux does actually have a connection with the Master Emerald, being able to sense it and so forth.

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