Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

[Badnik Mechanic]

 it would not only be the truth, but also the fact that it would steer ANYONE away from the series! You ever seen Super Pan? No, because that's non-canon.

Remember that time when we found out more women like Sonic than men?

Seriously what do you have to back this one up with?

[Celestia]

This whole two worlds thing again? Even if we accept that there are two Angel Islands as Azoo discussed before it still leaves the question of why Adventure shows Knuckles guarding the one in the human world. That's apparently the one the ancient Echidnas lived on too, despite it being in the world without anthros, which means that they can't be Knuckles' ancestors, even though they're identified as such, because Knuckles originates in anthro-world. Chao and Flickies are also apparently indigenous to the human world too, despite being every bit as unrealistic as Sonic. Then we have Tails, Big, and Amy apparently living in the human world as well. And that's only the contradictions found in SA1! SA2 has Shadow, who's appearance makes no sense if the ARK is in a world without anthros, and Rouge, who apparently one day decided to up and leave her home dimension to join a human military organization. '06 has Silver and Blaze living in the ruined future of the human world and Zero Gravity has G.U.N. existing in the same world as Babylon Garden meaning that the anthro Babylonians are also native to the human world. This is why you don't try to fix what ain't broke.

Where was it said the "human world" doesn't have the anthros? Reading the OP, it kinda just sounds like they're essentially separate continuities...then again there's the bit about it not being clear if each has their own Sonic and other characters or if they somehow go between them or whatever. 

Eh. I think it's kind of a non-issue because I doubt this will ever come up in the actual games. Nothing has ever suggested there's separate worlds, hence everyone being confused that that's supposedly the case. For now it seems safe to assume it's not exactly a literal thing, especially with Generations existing (though there's the possibility that was considered a non-canon story for the sake of the anniversary).

Edited August 12, 2015 by Celestia

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Not sure where this idea came from that the games didn't or barely had a canon. ETC

Well I'm just saying how it seems to me. excuse me if the facts about the series I say are off... I'm not trying to say I know everything. However The connections between the games outside the classics are often vague at best IMO. Especially when you add to the fact the world seems different after almost every few main titles in the series.

[Wittymations]

Two worlds, I still find this dumb. Really dumb. It contradicts canon, particularly with the Adventure. But the way Sonic Team treats it, it's almost like they mean from a story development elemental, rather than literal. The same way they treat Super Sonic as a separate person, Classic Sonic as a separate person, etc. Which isn't very pleasing, either way.

 

I don't mind limiting the super forms, but why the hell limit it to a specific race and gender? Like the series didn't have enough allusions to fucking DBZ, already. Shit, nevermind, I know why, it's because they're all "Sonic" to a degree. Shadow is more blnatant, and Silver had that one bit where it blinks between silver and Sonic, in I think Sonic's intro in 06.

Everything else I can deal with.

[Ripe]

So, Sonic bible? Sonic universe has so many retcons and inconsistencies throught it's history so it's hard to really believe those statements at least fully. I would go on rant why those things are stupid to my opinion but it would be redundant.

Edited August 12, 2015 by RipeFIN

[Nepenthe]

Well I'm just saying how it seems to me. excuse me if facts about the series I say are off... I'm not trying to say I know everything. However The connections between the games outside the classics are often vague at best IMO. Especially when you add to the fact the world seems different after almost every few main titles in the series.

You made an assertion that "the games barely have a canon," so I assumed you would at least have some sort of evidence or general working knowledge to back it up. On top of that, people who know more about the canon than you do exercise the same exact argument. This isn't about knowing everything about Sonic; it's about knowing the basic story.

Which brings me to the point that these aren't actually vague connections. They're all apparent references in either the cut scenes, the games' overarching plots, or both, similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. You would have to basically not engage in the stories to any degree to somehow miss them.

The world seeming different every few titles is ultimately little more than artistic license. Sonic's art was pretty broadly defined at the outset, and the areas, biomes, and color palettes they had to choose from weren't all that limited, per se. It's not really proof that every few series of games is completely divorced from the last. This is an even more ironic observation when you consider that the modern games- the ones with the least connected story- actually make an effort to have a more consistent art style.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I kinda think the whole "realistic world vs cartoony world" thing could have been explained as being the result of concentrated Chaos Energy in the cartoony locations warping the landscape. Chaos energy does a lot of weird stuff as it is, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume it could change the environment into a weird surreal landscape. Plus there are so many weird anomalies like time travelling shenanigans from Little Planet or big concentrations of Chaos Energy like the Master Emerald, Special Zone portals, and wherever the Chaos Emeralds manage to show up that it could explain why realistic locations could have stuff like loops, slopes and the like as a result of their reality warping capabilities (Though then again maybe there are just a bunch of Sonic wannabes around and the governments of the world decided it was easier just to build those locations for those wannabes to break their necks in).

Now you probably think: What about Lost World? That made Earth look really cartoony despite Unleashed showing the world to be more realistic. Funnily enough Unleashed is the answer. When the world broke apart, Dark Gaia's energy spread out over the entire continent, and it's pretty much MADE of Chaos Energy, so it wouldn't be that big a stretch to assume that his energy warped some locations more heavily than others, and we just didn't see it happen because we only went to about 8-9 locations out of hundreds of potential locations. Plus considering the way the pieces of the planet came back together in Unleashed, I wouldn't be surprised if the way the planet pieces collided with each other caused bits of new land to be created as a result of friction/pseudo tectonic plates or whatnot.

...I can't decide if my explanation is more or less convoluted than the two worlds stuff.

EDIT: Meh, even if my idea is more complicated, I think it makes a bit more sense.

Edited August 12, 2015 by SenEDtor Missile

[Lord-Dreamerz]

You made an assertion that "the games barely have a canon," so I assumed you would at least have some sort of evidence or general working knowledge to back it up. On top of that, people who know more about the canon than you do exercise the same exact argument. This isn't about knowing everything about Sonic; it's about knowing the basic story.

Which brings me to the point that these aren't actually vague connections. They're all apparent references in either the cut scenes, the games' overarching plots, or both, similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. You would have to basically not engage in the stories to any degree to somehow miss them.

The world seeming different every few titles is ultimately little more than artistic license. Sonic's art was pretty broadly defined at the outset, and the areas, biomes, and color palettes they had to choose from weren't all that limited, per se. It's not really proof that every few series of games is completely divorced from the last. This is an even more ironic observation when you consider that the modern games- the ones with the least connected story- actually make an effort to have a more consistent art style.

It's a bit much to assume how much I do or don't know of the basic stories of the series isn't it? Even if I'm wrong about some things... I do try to study up on the series. However I don't mind being proven wrong in this case. if all the games follow a canon story between them all... then that's cool yo.

[LoseR]

This "Sonic Bible" basically just sounds like a GDD, but vague and large enough to cover the entire series. It's not even a documentation of "this is what you can do, and this is what you can't do" it's a documentation of "this is what we consider to be true in the Sonic lore, at this time".

For those who don't know, GDD stands for Game Design Document, and it's basically a massive document that holds whole-and-complete information and explanations for every single thing that is implemented into a video game. These documents are created for (just about) every professional game ever, and they stay with the company who created the game. It's almost always very illegal to disclose them or information from them.

This "Sonic Bible" is essentially a Game Series Design Document, and likely follows a lot of the same rules as a GDD. We'll probably never see anything from it, and information within may even be changing as we speak.

I was going to make a point with this post, but I honestly forgot. Oh well, my input and information is still interesting enough.

Edited August 12, 2015 by N8te

[Nepenthe]

It's a bit much to assume how much I do or don't know of the basic stories of the series isn't it? Even if I'm wrong about some things... I do try to study up on the series. However I don't mind being proven wrong in this case. if all the games follow a canon story between them all... then that's cool yo.

I'm confused. I don't particularly think it's too much to assume the best baseline of knowledge when entering a discussion? I originally never made a claim about your knowledge when initially going over the plot lines, and I even said that really knowledgeable people also agree with your argument that the canon is barely there. You countered that "You didn't know everything." If anything, I just assumed you knew the stuff I went over. So I apologize? o.o;

[Gabz Girl]

Oh God no that two worlds thing bothers me SO much. >< That whole gate thing especially. 

SEGA seriously suggesting that the characters walk through this gate between the human and anthro world like its no big deal? That is stupid as hell and I'm just going to ignore it because of the stupidity. 

[Wittymations]

Thinking about the two worlds, I think I may less be concerned about the two worlds being a thing, in itself (but still am from a narrative point of view), but more about the "why?" What's the real point of this whole two world thing, why was it even developed?

Edited August 12, 2015 by WittyUsername

[Salamander]

Thinking about the two worlds, I think I may less be concerned about the two worlds being a thing, in itself (but still am from a narrative point of view), but more about the "why?" What's the real point of this whole two world thing, why was it even developed?

Simple: Because they don't think there should be games that combine the realistic human world and the cartoony Sonic world, probably because those would be marketed to two completely different audiences.  I suspect a lot of the other "rules" are similar, with the "male hedgehog only" business being more about stopping anyone from using Super forms except the established Modern characters who've been shown to have them; not so much "male hedgehog only" as "Sonic, Shadow, and Silver only."  It's probably too easy to read too much into a lot of this stuff... though the "Sonic's world" business explains that odd bit in one of the recent games (Colours I think?) where for some reason Eggman refers to the planet that way and it's really unnatural.

Still stupid.

[YoshiAngemon]

What would steer anyone away? giving female characters as the same treatment as the males? Because it would not make me go ahead... In fact I would think that it's awesome... And last I knew... Amy and some of the other girls are not weak whatsoever.

Something about the Chaos Emerald Energy being TOO Much for the Girls besides Blaze, and how it would rip their clothes off, and rip the girls apart, killing them.

Edited August 12, 2015 by YoshiAngemon

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I think the thing about the "two worlds" thing that bothers me most of all is that it seems to signify that Sega doesn't care about giving Sonic a coherent, unified world that stays the same from game to game, and instead just want to do whatever they want whenever they want and then think of an excuse why it makes sense without ever explaining anything in an actual game. It's just...lame.

Sonic is not exactly the most continuity-heavy series, but its universe still has to be coherent and consistent in and of itself. You can't have different games take place in different worlds and just never reference this in the actual games. If two different worlds with a "gate" between them is a part of the Sonic universe, it should actually be a part of the games, not some after-the-fact excuse. It just feels like really lazy, half-baked worldbuilding and storytelling.

And the funny thing is that clearly many people, myself included, would be perfectly content to accept a world that contains both anthropomorphic animals and cartoony things along with humans and more realistic things. Such a world would be rather interesting, in fact. But instead of having these different things coexist in a single world, and address the interesting things that would arise from that, Sega divides the world into two, and in so doing seems to actually contradict the games.

Maybe it offends me so much because I like looking at the games and actually thinking about what the Sonic world is like, and how Chaos Emeralds, colorful anthropomorphic animals with superpowers, and comparatively realistic humans and human society could exist in the same world. It's just really interesting to think about, to look at all the different Sonic games and what's revealed about the Sonic universe in each one. But this "two worlds" idea just ruins that whole process. I care about the world Sonic lives in and I want to be able to make sense of it. I don't want a crucial element to understanding it be hidden away in Sega technical manuals inaccessible by the public. It feels...kind of unfair. Especially since, now that we do know it, it just makes everything make less sense. It's frustrating.

[Amomynous]

The two worlds thing again. Ugh.

There's absolutely no way to explain how there can be two Angel Islands, for one, if we're to remember Sonic Adventure exists. If so, then does that mean each world has it's own real life variations of the same place? (But of course, that doesn't make sense, because obviously Sonic's world is just random technicolor stuff filled with animals and anthro people, right?)

Or heck, if there are two Angel Islands, does that mean two Master Emeralds? Or what if there's two different sets of Chaos Emeralds? If Earth is so supposedly different enough to warrant being a different world, then why does it have rings seeping out of the ground and random loops and slopes everywhere?

Talk about making it up as you go without any sort of tact. It's not that these guys have written themselves into a corner they can't write out of, it's that they're a combination of extremely lazy and too sensitive to everyone's different idea as to what Sonic is. In short, it's total shit, and shows how much they care for the series having any sort of believability to it. What's the point of even having a goshdang bible in the first place if it's just there to take the piss?

Yeah this is one thing that gets me, before Sonic world didn't really need explaining, but now it needs explaining, all because Sega tried to explain the unexplainable.

I expect Ken Penders to write like this, not the actual makers of the games.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Amomynous

[YoshiAngemon]

Maybe the Two Worlds Idea originated from Sonic X, where Sonic's scuffle with Eggman caused Chaos Control, and that sent the Emeralds, Sonic and his Friends, and Eggman to the World of Humans, and Chaos Control done with Super Sonic involved had brought Angel Island into the Human World. Then there was a dimensional crossing that had the worlds fusing into ONE, where if something isn't done right then, the worlds would fuse, and time would be stopped. And the thing is with Sonic's World, Time would flow faster than in the Human World. 25 Years would basically be a single day in Sonic's World! Which explained why Chris regressed to his childhood age when he entered Sonic's World! It's not like Post-Apocalymon-Era Digital World, where after Apocalymon was defeated 1 Day in Digital World = 1 Day in the Real World. Even after the Worlds nearly fused, Time still retains the rates of both worlds.

[Wittymations]

Simple: Because they don't think there should be games that combine the realistic human world and the cartoony Sonic world, probably because those would be marketed to two completely different audiences.

Probably. It's just really odd considering I had accepted, long ago, that Sonic 1 existed in the same world as Sonic Adventure 2. And I think many had as well, despite how different some of the atmosphere was.

 

But I look at something like Adventure 1, and see Ice Cap and Red Mountain existing in the human world. Human structures like Radical Highway and Casinopolis having extremely zany structures and color.

Edited August 12, 2015 by WittyUsername

[Amomynous]

Maybe the Two Worlds Idea originated from Sonic X, where Sonic's scuffle with Eggman caused Chaos Control, and that sent the Emeralds, Sonic and his Friends, and Eggman to the World of Humans, and Chaos Control done with Super Sonic involved had brought Angel Island into the Human World. Then there was a dimensional crossing that had the worlds fusing into ONE, where if something isn't done right then, the worlds would fuse, and time would be stopped. And the thing is with Sonic's World, Time would flow faster than in the Human World. 25 Years would basically be a single day in Sonic's World! Which explained why Chris regressed to his childhood age when he entered Sonic's World! It's not like Post-Apocalymon-Era Digital World, where after Apocalymon was defeated 1 Day in Digital World = 1 Day in the Real World. Even after the Worlds nearly fused, Time still retains the rates of both worlds.

 

It makes no sense to suddenly decide to do things the Sonic X way though, Sonic X was it's own continuity that set itself up that way, Sega have pulled this thing out their ass after years of canon.

What's more the worlds of Sonic X were demonstrably different worlds with seperate space and time. We haven't got that with the games.

Simple: Because they don't think there should be games that combine the realistic human world and the cartoony Sonic world, probably because those would be marketed to two completely different audiences.  I suspect a lot of the other "rules" are similar, with the "male hedgehog only" business being more about stopping anyone from using Super forms except the established Modern characters who've been shown to have them; not so much "male hedgehog only" as "Sonic, Shadow, and Silver only."  It's probably too easy to read too much into a lot of this stuff... though the "Sonic's world" business explains that odd bit in one of the recent games (Colours I think?) where for some reason Eggman refers to the planet that way and it's really unnatural.

Still stupid.

But surely there's a difference between describing a concept of marketing to two different audiences and literally describing two world with a "gate" between them? I guess Sega failed to understand this.

(Unless "gate" was a misunderstanding of the person talking about the Bible who took it literally, but would he mention it if the book didn't?)

Edited August 12, 2015 by Amomynous

[SenEDDtor Missile]

All this really shows is that they have no confidence in their own canon anymore, and that they're just pulling out things out of their ass to appease people without any consideration as to what the consequences are to their past work.

I mean seriously, the explanation in question makes no sense when you take into consideration the fact that cartoony/colorful/surreal worlds have coexisted alongside the more realistic world for years, and yet NOW they're suddenly in different dimensions?

[Sonic is a Care Bear]

That's very interesting, but I'm not sure I believe it without a verifiable source. And while it's certainly possible a bible exists with that info as stated, it doesn't seem to reflect the reality of the games, which would put it in the same place as other other curious Sonic bibles created for the series; like the one where Sonic was born in Hardly, Nebraska.

 

[Amomynous]

Something does bother me about this bible though, I don't see how there are codes on it so you'd automatically know who scanned it, you'd be able to know what specific book was scanned, (even then could you not obscure the codes with image manipulation?) but not necessarily who had it at the time.

I mean they'd surveil you had it but then it's not the code specifically that gives you away.

 

Truth be told, I don't really see why series bibles are gaurded so jealously, I mean I sort of do and sort of don't.

The developers' ideas about the series change and they don't want to be held accountable for those changes, we' were shocked learning that the Sonic canon is supposed to have two worlds, and when we get our hands on the Sonic Bible we'd pee ourselves.  I'm not even sure we were supposed to learn that the Sonic canon has two worlds until it was explained in a game storyline (but then it seems Sega staff mention it without consequence)

But at the same time, if the bible is what's "canon" and if they're going to insist on following that canon then I don't see why we can't see it, or if it has spoilers I guess it could be locked up until after-the-fact, but that doesn't happen too much.

If they aren't going to insist on following it they could just state "these are concepts not absolutes." and we'd accept it for what it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Amomynous

[Badnik Mechanic]

That's very interesting, but I'm not sure I believe it without a verifiable source. And while it's certainly possible a bible exists with that info as stated, it doesn't seem to reflect the reality of the games, which would put it in the same place as other other curious Sonic bibles created for the series; like the one where Sonic was born in Hardly, Nebraska.

I gave you a sources in the OP. But if you absolutely have to have a direct link I can give you one.

Aaron Webber has confirmed the two worlds thing.  This was barely a month ago.

Iizuka has also confirmed all the other stuff, odds are if I could be bothered to read/watch the interviews from Sonic Boom 2013 then your answers would probably be in there.

In fact everything in the OP has been said one way or another by someone at Sega, the exception is that one which Sumo Digital confirmed. 

Now I could have added a bunch of other possible 'bible' entries in there which I know/suspect are in there, but I've not done because I don't know for sure since A: I've not read the document, and B: nobody in Sega has publicly confirmed it. 

However since one of those things is almost certainly not a thing any more I might be in a position to talk about it, but not entirely sure if I should since it's not my call to make.

Something does bother me about this bible though, I don't see how there are codes on it so you'd automatically know who scanned it, you'd be able to know what specific book was scanned, (even then could you not obscure the codes with image manipulation?) but not necessarily who had it at the time.

Whilst that is possible... you still have to factor in the following.

Pretend they had no ID markers on them...

You have one of the most important documents in Sonic development, each individually numbered given to only a handful of people... and you have to run the risk of taking copies of that document, uploading them, it really doesn't/wouldn't take much to figure out who leaked it and that's before you edit out the ID's.

[Amomynous]

I would be interested to hear about things you suspect about the Sonic Bible, we could look them up.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Amomynous

[Badnik Mechanic]

I would be interested to hear about things you suspect about the Sonic Bible, we could look them up.

No we can't.

Because if I do that then I'll end up betraying peoples trust and we would get a lot less news and things than we do now. With regards to the one thing which would probably be ok to talk about, I know they've never been publicly mentioned, however, it's almost certainly no longer a thing thanks to events at Boom 2013. 

Hell I know stuff which is hidden in ASRT that modders have yet to find, but I've made the decision not to talk about that until it's either dug up and found or several more years pass and it won't be a big deal at all (probably when ASRT is on legacy systems only).

 

If you want some possible things that are probably in it or where in it at one point. Just look up Iizuka's answers to some fan questions, such as the moon thing, or the answers he gave to the crowd at Boom 2013, e.g. Tails doll stuff.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Hogfather