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Badnik Mechanic

Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

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I would be interested to hear about things you suspect about the Sonic Bible, we could look them up.

No we can't.

Because if I do that then I'll end up betraying peoples trust and we would get a lot less news and things than we do now. With regards to the one thing which would probably be ok to talk about, I know they've never been publicly mentioned, however, it's almost certainly no longer a thing thanks to events at Boom 2013. 

Hell I know stuff which is hidden in ASRT that modders have yet to find, but I've made the decision not to talk about that until it's either dug up and found or several more years pass and it won't be a big deal at all (probably when ASRT is on legacy systems only).

 

If you want some possible things that are probably in it or where in it at one point. Just look up Iizuka's answers to some fan questions, such as the moon thing, or the answers he gave to the crowd at Boom 2013, e.g. Tails doll stuff.

Edited by Hogfather

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I saw you had a source, I specified verifiable. The word of a western employee on the subject is interesting, it's good to know, but SEGA always gives the impression the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. 

Ultimately we can't see the source material so we can't verify it, and we probably never will.

I don't really care what developers say at conventions, they say silly things like "Eggman blew up the other side of the moon" to explain plotholes which obviously don't reflect the reality of the games.

Because what matters at the end of the day is what's reflected in the games, I mean, what are you going to do about some secret plot point that never made it and nobody knew about??

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Ultimately we can't see the source material so we can't verify it, and we probably never will.

You have a staff member at Retro openly stating that they have seen it and verified it. Iizuka has also verified some of the stuff stated in it. 

Also as already said, Iizuka has publicly confirmed some of these things which are in there, I'm not going through the whole Boom 2013 Q&A video to find the exact line/timestamp, but here is a post I made back in 2013 which more or less shows Iizuka confirming that the Super Emeralds are no more.

I don't really care what developers say at conventions, they say silly things like "Eggman blew up the other side of the moon" to explain plotholes which obviously don't reflect the reality of the games.

You do know that Iizuka is the head of Sonic Team right? 

Odds are especially given the speed of this answer, that is one of the things which was in the documentation at one point. 

Edited by Hogfather

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While I'm not particularly keen on the idea of Super Forms being limited by gender and species, it does (by accident or design) actually make the fact that Gerald Robotnik just so happened to use a male hedgehog near identical to the main protaganist as the template for the Ultimate Lifeform less of a contrivance - if male hedgehogs naturally have an affinity for using the powers of the Chaos Emeralds, it would make sense for Robotnik to choose a hedgehog to be the genetic template for the chaos controlling Ultimate Lifeform.

As for the 'gate', while it's bizarre to put it into continuity... without actually putting it in the games themselves, I wouldn't have minded the concept in general - it seemed to work for Sonic X afterall. The problem is, possibly the biggest inconsistency that could be used to hint at two worlds - the different continent configurations shown in Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Unleashed - is that both configurations are worlds full of humans based on Earth cultures. While it's possible that both worlds could have been colonised by people moving between worlds using the 'gate' - Echidnas could have colonised the Mystic Ruins area and each culture of humans could have colonised parts of Sonic's world - it kind of seems a bit unnecessary. As others have said, they don't seem to have any coherent plan anymore for what they want the setting to be.

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I'm focusing on the "two worlds" information since, like you say, that's pretty much the new information.

Sonic Team deciding not to use something again from a game that isn't considered canon is a little different from claiming a plot point that would affect all canon games.

I mean, some people here are taking this info very seriously, but I don't understand what they think the ramifications are? It doesn't seem to appear in the games, and there's no verification besides second hand sources.

I mean, do you think it will be a 'thing' in future Sonic games? Personally, I don't think so. But it's an interesting factoid and thankyou for sharing it. 

The source didn't happen to specify what the worlds were named did he? It's be interesting if there's supposed to be two planets and they're both call "Sonic's World"

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I mean, some people here are taking this info very seriously, but I don't understand what they think the ramifications are? It doesn't seem to appear in the games, and there's no verification besides second hand sources.

It's not a second hand source... one is Aaron Webber who works for Sega and who has done for years, that's a primary source, no question about that.

The other is someone who has read the document, maybe you can consider it a secondary one, but good grief it's a close call.

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Question, is Adventure 1 and 2 actually the anthro world? Asking due to the echidna inhabitants being the, apparently, dominant species before the whole Chaos thing. It's just humans later carved themselves out a slice of it, apparently crossing the gate.

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This "Sonic Bible" basically just sounds like a GDD, but vague and large enough to cover the entire series. It's not even a documentation of "this is what you can do, and this is what you can't do" it's a documentation of "this is what we consider to be true in the Sonic lore, at this time".

For those who don't know, GDD stands for Game Design Document

Oh. When I read the first paragraph, I thought you were saying the Sonic Bible sounds like a "G-- Damn Disaster," but nicer.

 

Edited by KingScoopaKoopa

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I think the dictionary definition of Primary Source would be the Sonic Bible itself, Aaron Webber qualifies as a Secondary Source since he's talking about the Sonic Bible.

But this is splitting hairs, it's not going to change how either of us view how 'verified' the source is.  

Regarding the other stuff, you know with Iizuka it like

XenaWizards.jpg

in regards to answering some fan questions.

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I mean, some people here are taking this info very seriously, but I don't understand what they think the ramifications are? It doesn't seem to appear in the games, and there's no verification besides second hand sources.

I mean, do you think it will be a 'thing' in future Sonic games? Personally, I don't think so. But it's an interesting factoid and thankyou for sharing it. 

I would assume it's not likely to appear in future games, since it hasn't appeared in any past games. So you could argue we're overreacting. But the point is, this is coming from Sega. This is how they view the Sonic universe. To me, this speaks to Sega not caring about the series having a single, consistent, coherent universe, and that they think it's fine to make up things as they go along and contradict things they've already established. Plus, it contradicts what everyone's assumed to be true about the Sonic universe for years, and does nothing but cause it to make less sense and raise tons of seemingly unanswerable questions. And just the fact that Sega apparently believes and is guided by something that hasn't been conveyed in any game is a bit disconcerting.

Maybe it could be the case that this isn't supposed to literally be a canonical fact and is just a way of thinking about how they write the series for tonal reasons. This would be slightly better in some ways, but I still find it rather annoying, because it would mean that Sega doesn't care about making the Sonic universe a unified thing coherent within itself and actively support the idea of there being a big disconnect between the universes of different games. I don't mind some Sonic games taking place in more realistic settings than others, but I do mind the idea of seeing the more cartoony stuff and the more realistic stuff as being entirely separate, and not even making an attempt to make a consistent fictional universe.

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Question, is Adventure 1 and 2 actually the anthro world? Asking due to the echidna inhabitants being the, apparently, dominant species before the whole Chaos thing. It's just humans later carved themselves out a slice of it, apparently crossing the gate.

It could be the other way around, that the original echidna tribes were nomadic and crossed between worlds from Sonic's world to Earth, and eventually settled down in the Mystic Ruins. It could even be that Angel Island itself moves as well as floats, and travels through the gate between worlds periodically.

I severely doubt Sega has actually given the matter any thought, however.

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Regarding the other stuff, you know with Iizuka it like

XenaWizards.jpg

in regards to answering some fan questions.

It really isn't. Just watch his Q&A session. Just look at how quickly and diverse his answers are to stuff.

He quite clearly knows his stuff and knew how to answer even some of the daft questions. 

One of the few times he doesn't answer quickly or coherently is at the friends of the tails doll question which is completely understandable.

He's not just making stuff up on the spot. There is a clear document which outlines this stuff which he's probably had a big hand in creating. 

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I haven't hardly seen every Q&A session with Iizuka, so you may be right and I'm sure he knows 90% of his stuff when it comes to normal info about Sonic, but things like that Moon Answer he gave, eh, doesn't seem too serious to me. Maybe he should've said Eggman blew up the moon on the other planet haha.

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Just thought, wonder if the bible says about not referring to past characters/past forms of Chaotix. It's been publically stated by Iizuka as well, so they would be able to say something if they'd seen it/is actually in there.

Mainly because I'm curious, I've got all the verification I could ever want a long time ago.

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Okay, seems like Hoggy proved us that even Iizuka doesn't know jack shit about what to make of Sonic's canon. Great.

Also, the "two worlds" thing is the worst bullshit I've ever seen, it only serves to drive the fanbase even more separated. And by Ruby you mean Aaron Weber? I mean, right now I'm BARELY (if I am at all) giving credit to Iizuka, why would I give credit to RubyEclipse?

Dammit, Sonic Team needs a new leader. One who can FIX THAT MESS.

Iizuka's been working on Sonic non-stop for more than 20 years, Sega NEEDS to let him go now.

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*Hyper forms and the Super Emeralds are non canon*

God dammit...

I just realized: wouldn't this make Knuckles' game in Sonic & Knuckles non-canon? Without the emeralds/super/hyper form, Knuckles can't save the Master Emerald and restore the Floating Island to the sky.

Screw that, I like Knuckles' story.

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Out of curiosity I looked up the endings, and Knuckles actually doesn't go super at any point during his "all chaos emeralds" ending, though he does (or rather, presumably goes hyper) in his "all super emeralds" ending. So if you really want to pick at Sonic canon that deeply (which I doubt Sega wants, but whatever), you could say his chaos emerald ending is canon, but any use of Super Knuckles by the player is just a non-canon gameplay feature.

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