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Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"


Badnik Mechanic

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Why can't Eggman just take over the world that Sonic and co. aren't residing in.

Because the entire concept is dumb and wrong?

Edited by Shaddy
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Why can't Eggman just take over the world that Sonic and co. aren't residing in. Like he can just destroy this supposed "gate" that connects the two worlds while Sonic is on the other side, what a doofus

Cuz obviously there's two Eggmans, since apparently the events of each world have no bearing on the other. And both Eggmans don't know about the gate, so yeah. That's why.

Kill me.

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Because the entire concept is dumb and wrong?

To quote Eddy from Ed Edd n Eddy, season 1, episode 26 titled "Avast Ye Eds", 3 minutes and 59 seconds in..

"It's a joke, Jonny. Lighten up."

Ain't a reason to jump on him for that, man.

Edited by Azoo
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No, I was talking about the two worlds concept. As in, it being dumb and wrong is the reason Eggman can't do it, because it's completely out of the blue that such a thing would exist to be taken advantage of in the first place. Sean's point is fine, it's the reason said point would ever be conceived that angers me, and that has nothing to do with him.

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Why can't Eggman just take over the world that Sonic and co. aren't residing in. Like he can just destroy this supposed "gate" that connects the two worlds while Sonic is on the other side, what a doofus

Is it wrong that I actually would like a game set out like this? Eggman leaves his old empire to Orbot or something to conquer someplace else and half of the game is spent trying to actually find a way over to him before he does too much damage. Hell, even throw in a twist where the people actually like Eggman over there and Sonic and co are considered the bad guys just for standing up to him. Didn't even spend 5 minutes thinking that up and there's already a lot you can do with it.

That being said I'm gonna have to agree with Monkey here, if they're going to pull an excuse like this the least they can do is actually attempt to weave it into the narrative proper rather than using it as an asspull to cover for their inconsistency.

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That's the weird thing about this though, there is no inconsistency. I mean, when it comes to the whole human thing, at least. Like, did people really think that games they aren't in are set in a different universe altogether? Does something need to appear in a later installment for it to still exist in continuity? Big the Cat didn't appear in Sonic '06, but I was still fairly confident that he was still out there somewhere (which was a very comforting thought, mind you). Does someone at SEGA think Sonic fans have no object permanence?

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What's the gate like anyway? Is it like the gate in FMA? Is Chaos energy powered by dead souls from the human dimension? And if there are two Sonics and two Eggmans, does that mean... two Bigs? So many pressing questions to pursue

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Well you can't possibly work on the same thing for 20+ years and not be creatively nulled.

That depends entirely on the artist involved. People have and can pull off literal lifetimes working on the same property or properties.

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That depends entirely on the artist involved. People have and can pull off literal lifetimes working on the same property or properties.

Looking on Iizuka's later stuff, you can kinda tell that he's burnt out on Sonic.

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The last time Iizuka was really involved in a game's development process was Shadow the Hedgehog. He wasn't involved at all with 06, and he's been limited to Producer and Special Thanks ever since.

Iizuka pretty much just oversees development, he has nothing to do with development itself.

Edited by Rad Dudesman
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That's the weird thing about this though, there is no inconsistency. I mean, when it comes to the whole human thing, at least.

There are arguably a few, like the different continent make-ups shown in Shadow and Unleashed - of course, the two worlds things as it's been presented (one human world, one non-human world) doesn't really help address that as both continent variations are filled with humans.

There may also be a few minor ones; I always thought it odd how there's at least one city with Back to the Future-esque flying cars everywhere while the rest of the world is more contemporary, though this could be explained away without having to resort to two worlds.

 

And if there are two Sonics and two Eggmans, does that mean... two Bigs? So many pressing questions to pursue

I may have missed this, but has it actually been said that there are two sets of characters, one for each world? In Aaron's interview, he seemed to be saying it was like Sonic X, with one human world and one non-human world, rather than two separate continuities/universes (although he said that he personally broke it down in his own headcanon into each era being its own continuity for his own sanity). Having a 'gate' between the two worlds seems pointless if each is its own self-contained universe.

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I just realized: wouldn't this make Knuckles' game in Sonic & Knuckles non-canon? Without the emeralds/super/hyper form, Knuckles can't save the Master Emerald and restore the Floating Island to the sky.

Screw that, I like Knuckles' story.

Last I checked, you can get the true ending for everyone's story by just collecting the Chaos Emeralds. Is that no so?

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Really though, limiting Super form's to males of Sonic's race isn't a bad thing.

everyone-can-be-super-and-when-everyones

I'd argue that Silver is pushing it, but it's not like we'll ever see Super Silver again anyway. Keeping them limited to Sonic & Shadow (and Blaze) is better than giving them out like candy and devaluing them like DBZ did with Super Saiyans.

Edited by Rad Dudesman
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Producer and Special Thanks ever since.

Iizuka pretty much just oversees development, he has nothing to do with development itself.

Urm... you do know that producers are actually quite hands on with development? 

I've seen it myself to know that producers do know their stuff and are very hands on with their games.

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Two worlds, silly because of reasons others have mentioned.
I'm not too bothered about the Super forms thing, but only male just seems a bit much. Don't mind Tails not having one but like, girls deserve to be powerful too and the only one remotely close and not even canonly considered is Blaze.
But I'm more bothered with the 2 worlds bit.

 

Sonic - Super speed.

Shadow - Chaos abilities, ultimate life form, his DNA donor Black Doom was capable of using Chaos Control.

Silver - Psychokinesis.

Blaze - Pyrokinesis.

 

Those four already have some form of pre-existing superpower that allows them to harness the power of the emeralds.

 

Amy or Rouge transforming with them wouldn't make any kind of sense, since they don't have any superpowers.

 

Tails's flight - Not a superpower, just a physical mutation.

Knuckles's strength - Not a superpower, all members of his tribe had this strength. He's only special because the rest of the echidna race is extinct.

Edited by Rad Dudesman
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Sonic being able to turn super is fine: he's the main character. Maybe he has a secret power we don't know about. Maybe it's related to his super speed. It is probably why he can use Chaos Control, as well. Who knows. 

Shadow being able to turn super is also fine. He was designed with Chaos Control in mind, so him being able to utilize the emeralds in a similar way isn't too far fetched. He's Sonic's rival, either way. Gotta keep em neck and neck sonewhow.

Silver turning super does not make sense at all. Same for him using Chaos Control. I might be able to buy it if he were Sonic or Shadow's descendant, but no plot device is in place to explain it. And for that matter, it isn't even mentioned. No one asks "Silver can go super?!" Not even Silver seems to be surprised to be able to do that or when he first finds out he can use Chaos Control. 

It's dumb.

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Yeah, it's really just Silver that makes the "male hedgehogs only" thing ridiculous.

 

If it were just Sonic and Shadow, no one would question it.

 

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Sonic Team botch their canon, am I supposed to be surprised by this?

 

Its pretty laughable how complicated they've made this honestly, nothing can ever be simple with them.

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Last I checked, you can get the true ending for everyone's story by just collecting the Chaos Emeralds. Is that no so?

I think you have to do it with each character for their respective ending. In Sonic's case, you can't reach Doomsday Zone without at least seven, and Tails can't go there regardless (for some reason, certainly not because he can't fly...). For Knuckles, getting the emeralds is the difference between whether he saves the Master Emerald or not and whether Angel Island can float in the sky again, and he apparently does that as Hyper Knuckles.

Really though, limiting Super form's to males of Sonic's race isn't a bad thing.

everyone-can-be-super-and-when-everyones

I'd argue that Silver is pushing it, but it's not like we'll ever see Super Silver again anyway. Keeping them limited to Sonic & Shadow (and Blaze) is better than giving them out like candy and devaluing them like DBZ did with Super Saiyans.

I disagree; it's not like Super Saiyans where anyone with Saiyan blood can do it if they just say their prayers, take their vitamins, and have a nervous breakdown; in Sonic, it requires getting the seven Chaos Emeralds (and maybe 50 rings?).

After becoming Super Sonic, it's not like Sonic can just do it any time he wants to. Same deal for anyone else -- you need the Macguffins in order to do it.

I guess this is their way of rationalizing why everyone didn't do that at the end of Sonic Adventure or Sonic Adventure 2 or Sonic 06, since each one has one more character do it. Still seems kind of contrived, silly, contradictory (as mentioned before), and maybe slightly misogynistic.

 

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It's not a second hand source... one is Aaron Webber who works for Sega and who has done for years, that's a primary source, no question about that.

The other is someone who has read the document, maybe you can consider it a secondary one, but good grief it's a close call.

Webber IS a second-hand source, he is just a spokersman, not one WORKING with Iizuka.

As I said, I'm already having my problems to give credit to the very Sonic Team's boss, I have NO REASON to give any credit to RubyEclipse.

*Hyper forms and the Super Emeralds are non canon*

God dammit...

What Vejd said \/

We've known that bit for about three years now.

Let me get into the point: Hoggy's thread is the final proof that Iizuka is totally lost on how to conduct the franchise. Goddamn it, I think I could put the entire canon together with no difficulty if I was the boss there. I think most people here with full knowledge of Sonic's story could do it.

Not to mention that some fanfic writers here (only some) write better stories than Pontac or Iizuka could ever dream of writing. Either this or Ian Flynn XD

(Yeah. I would call Ian Flynn to write stories for the games if I was the boss there.)

Edited by ZDozer
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Half the issue with the Sonic stories is that we don't know what the development process and chain of command is actually doing to affect their quality. Getting a writer you think is good isn't going to help if someone higher up beyond Iizuka is mandating that platformers that are more like Mario are the only ones that sell anymore. And it's becoming more and more clear that there's talent at Sonic Team- including Iizuka (his claim to fame is still SA1, after all)- being stifled by someone or something else, and a look at the way some Japanese devs like Konami and Capcom treat their talent in this current era, as well as the fact that the new president had to fucking apologize for all the trust Sega's whittled away, might clue us in a little more. That is the disappointment with Warren and Graff. We were sold on the idea of receiving amazing stories that would blow the Japanese ones out of the water because these were in tune with western sensibilities and had worked in TV and games before that were much better than anything Sonic's done.... only for that to not happen. All of this is more than likely Sega being idiots and Sonic Team having to deal with it as best they can.

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So, you mean that Iizuka is having with SEGA the exact same problem that Flynn has with Archie (Executive Meddling)? And that he would have been doing way better if SEGA executives didn't stand on his way?

It also reminds me on Keiji Inafune back when he was president at Capcom and how he had to break rules and fool the executives to get Dead Rising to launch.

Edited by ZDozer
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