Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"

[Nepenthe]

I don't know how Iizuka would perform under greater freedom if my theory is correct. I'm just not comfortable blaming the man who spearheaded Sonic Adventure 1 as literally the only reason everything is wrong when he still ultimately exists in a detrimental, out-of-touch corporate environment is the right thing to do.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Let me get into the point: Hoggy's thread is the final proof that Iizuka is totally lost on how to conduct the franchise. Goddamn it, I think I could put the entire canon together with no difficulty if I was the boss there. I think most people here with full knowledge of Sonic's story could do it.

Are you ever going to explain why? 

Seriously, I've seen a lot of posts like this in the topic, but god help us if we're going to get a sensible argument as to why? I fail to see how anything I've written here is a stain on Iizuka's role as head of Sonic Team.

 

Cooorrrr think about this for a moment, what if Iizuka isn't the sole author of the document, blimy how red faced are you guys gonna be if it's a team input thing which it almost certainly is.

[ZDozer]

I already explained that. That "Super Form Limitation" bullshit, along with the "Two Worlds bullshit" and summed up with previous confusions like Blaze's jinx between Sonic Rush/'06 and such.

The problem with this "bible" is that this "bible" proves that even Sonic Team doesn't know what to do with Sonic's canon anymore.

I said it before, it's you who are discrediting the argument.

[Kuzu]

There's so much salt in this thread, Jesus people.

 

Anyway, the whole Super form thing sounds incredibly misogynistic, but then ignoring that...why? What is so inherently special about being a male hedgehog in universe that allows them and only them, to have a Super form? People keep comparing it to the Saiyans and their super form when its not even the same.

Super Saiyan is a racial trait that is acknowledged in universe as being exclusive to the Saiyan race, the saiyans are the only ones who can use it because its in their biology. 

This series` Super forms? We know barely fuck all about it beside the fact that you need the Chaos Emeralds for it and not much else. Like, I know it was originally just a power up as an homage to Dragon Ball, but then they really should have tried to explain its presence when the franchise decided to get more narrative driven or just drop the concept altogether like Nepenthe mentioned. 

Like,Goku goes Super Saiyan because he was enraged at the death of his best friend and when his son was threatened and trained himself to control the transformation afterward. Sonic can go Super because....he's the main character I guess?

 

 

I dunno, I find it extremely hard to care about the series when it feels like nothing will ever make sense as it currently is.

[Badnik Mechanic]

I already explained that. That "Super Form Limitation" bullshit, along with the "Two Worlds bullshit" and summed up with previous confusions like Blaze's jinx between Sonic Rush/'06 and such.

The problem with this "bible" is that this "bible" proves that even Sonic Team doesn't know what to do with Sonic's canon anymore.

I said it before, it's you who are discrediting the argument.

So let me get this straight. 

Iizuka has been working at Sonic Team for... how many years now? He's been the head of Sonic Team for getting on for nearly 10 years. 

But because of a document, which you do not know if he authored or co-authored by X number of people, you think this is proof that and I quote, "final proof that Iizuka is totally lost on how to conduct the franchise."

lol bloody hell, over-reaction much? 

The only problem with the stuff listed here is that gate thing which people are making way too big a deal out of, since up until Ruby mentioned the two worlds thing, nobody had ever said "Well why do we only ever see human like worlds in one game and sonic worlds in another and never the two in the same game."

But the fact we're now brining Iizuka into this when you have absolutely NO idea when this bible was first made, who authored it, who co-authored it or who gets to amend it just sounds like you're attacking Iizuka for the sake of it.

[Celestia]

This series` Super forms? We know barely fuck all about it beside the fact that you need the Chaos Emeralds for it and not much else. Like, I know it was originally just a power up as an homage to Dragon Ball, but then they really should have tried to explain its presence when the franchise decided to get more narrative driven or just drop the concept altogether like Nepenthe mentioned. 

Like,Goku goes Super Saiyan because he was enraged at the death of his best friend and when his son was threatened and trained himself to control the transformation afterward. Sonic can go Super because....he's the main character I guess?

I dunno, I kinda just take super forms at face value. You can use the magic Chaos Emeralds to turn into a magic super form thing and that's that.

The "male hedgehog-only" limitation is really silly, though, and does kind of suggest there must be something more to it RE: who can use the Chaos Emeralds that way and who can't. In reality though it's probably just because they don't want every character to have a super form and if there wasn't some kind of rule, it'd be hard to justify characters not having one. It probably would've been better to just be like "some people are more in tune to the power of the Emeralds than others", keep Super Knuckles canon (because why wouldn't the guardian of the M.E. fit in that group?), and leave it at that.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Celestia

[Kuzu]

I dunno, I kinda just take super forms at face value. You can use the magic Chaos Emeralds to turn into a magic super form thing and that's that.

The "male hedgehog-only" limitation is really silly, though, and does kind of suggest there must be something more to it RE: who can use the Chaos Emeralds that way and who can't. In reality though it's probably just because they don't want every character to have a super form and if there wasn't some kind of rule, it'd be hard to justify characters not having one. It probably would've been better to just be like "some people are more in tune to the power of the Emeralds than others", keep Super Knuckles canon (because why wouldn't the guardian of the M.E. fit in that group?), and leave it at that.

If they didn't say anything then it wouldn't be an issue and I'd just take it at face value like you said, but now there's this arbitrary limitation on super forms with no watsonian  reason. And the doylist reasoning doesn't make much sense either; if they wanted to limit the Super forms, why single out just Sonic, Shadow, and Silver?

If it just Sonic, sure main character privileges and all that. Sonic & Shadow? I'd probably raise an eyebrow but just write off as the hero and his rival being equals, but then Silver comes and I'm like "wat, why?" what makes him so special?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

This series` Super forms? We know barely fuck all about it beside the fact that you need the Chaos Emeralds for it and not much else. Like, I know it was originally just a power up as an homage to Dragon Ball, but then they really should have tried to explain its presence when the franchise decided to get more narrative driven or just drop the concept altogether like Nepenthe mentioned.

The way I see it (by that I mean headcanon) is that accessing a super form requires two things in addition to the Chaos Emeralds' power:

1) A high amount of Pre-existing Chaos Energy within the user.

2) The willpower to do so and/or strength of belief and purpose. Or lack of emotional turmoil.

 

1 is self explanatory, since it would not be too farfetched to assume that Sonic, Shadow, Blaze, and MAAYBE Silver have a decent amount of Chaos/Sol energy in their bodies as is shown through their powers and the fact they can use a Super Form. Since we've never seen characters like Amy get a form, we can probably presume she doesn't have much Chaos Energy in her, or she has a different set of powers that don't need/can't use the Chaos Emeralds (headcanon is that she has magic, but that's another story). However 2 is also an important factor, since a part of accessing the power of the Chaos Emeralds for a Super Form is having the willpower to do so, and not everyone is capable of showing that willpower. And even IF they have that willpower, they might not have enough internal Chaos Energy to use it effectively AND/OR they don't have a clear mind and heart to do so, which can be achieved through having a strong belief or purpose.

This comes easily to someone like Sonic, who always follows his own beliefs no matter what and he has a clear purpose in his life (Defeat Eggman and Live Life as it is), and it could even explain Chaos being able to become Perfect Chaos, since it had a clear purpose (DESTROY EVERYTHING IN ANGER) and had enough power to do so. This could also apply to Shadow in SA2 and why he had more trouble maintaining his Super Form, since it was likely he was having some level of emotional turmoil due to him nearly botching up Maria's promise and thus was not as controlled as Sonic was.

Now with all this said, you're probably wondering: What about Tails and Knuckles? Shouldn't they be able to gain super forms since they had it before via Super Emeralds and they're more experienced now? Well...not exactly. In regards to Knuckles, while he probably does have a lot of Chaos Energy (Master Emerald might also help somewhat), he's not exactly free of emotional turmoil if his personality bio is to be believed, since he supposedly has an inferiority complex, which would probably jeopardize any attempts to go Super. Additionally the nature of the Master Emerald (being a power nullifier to the Chaos Emeralds) might also affect whether he would be ABLE to use the Chaos Emeralds' power, or that he would probably need a greater amount of power to compensate for the Master Emerald nullifying the energy, hence the currently non-canon Super Emeralds being able to give him that.

Tails on the other hand is a bit more straightforward. Back in his introduction he is generally considered to have confidence issues and it is likely that he didn't have that much Chaos Energy in him (Being only 4 years old would do that), so the only way he would have been able to gain a Super Form is via an even more massive amount of energy than the Chaos Emeralds (aka the Super Emeralds). Now as to why he isn't able to do it now, his confidence issues might have disappeared to a point, but if Lost World is any indicator it's not completely gone, so there's that. However, I personally think that another reason why is because Tails simply isn't aware that he CAN probably gain a super form now, and even if he could he's been more of a tech geek kind of guy and thus would be somewhat out of practice. Plus he might want to differentiate himself by not simply doing what Sonic can already do but that argument is kinda dumb so this is a "maybe" scenario.

 

OR I'm just horribly overthinking things and SEGA just didn't care.

[ZDozer]

First of all, Hog, Iizuka had problems explaining the Canon for years now, just check the answers to our questions resulting in more questions. He was brought to the topic because he's the head of Sonic Team, the leader, he's the one to answer for his subordinates.

Second, why all of a sudden RubyEclipse has a fucking say on Sonic canon, with that "two worlds" thing? Let me say that for the third time: Iizuka's already out of credit, why should I trust Aaron Weber, a man who has NO ACTUAL TIES with Sonic Team? He is just a damn spokersman.

Third, just because this guy has been around for twenty years, it doesn't mean that he can't lose his edge on the canon. Hell, since Sonic '06 all we get to see on the timeline is utter confusion thanks to how Sonic Rush (confirmed canon) and Rivals (also confirmed canon, BY HIM, nonetheless) collide in background and whatnot. 

Y'know, Nepenthe has been giving me something to think about on this Iizuka matter as well, when she says it's wrong to hold only him responsible, but I don't think what I'm talking about is about holding only him responsible.

What I'm trying yo say is that even Sonic Team doesn't know how to deal with the canon, and this manual show us how messed the heads out there had become with this.

[Celestia]

Silver was introduced in an anniversary game just like Shadow, so that's...something, I guess? I feel like SEGA would have shelved him alongside the other characters introduced in '06 if they didn't consider him important, for whatever reason. Not that I'm complaining since I have grown to really like him, at least conceptually (and in the comics).

Now that I think about it, I'm surprised they didn't just outright limit it to Sonic (and Burning Blaze maybe) only, since I doubt we'll ever see Super Shadow or Super Silver again in the games. :V See, could've been worse!

[Jango]

I'm not even mad that the Hyper forms are not canon. Hyper Sonic's rainbow glow in 3D would cause seizure in little kids

What I always found kind of cheap was removing Super Knuckles and Super Tails. You don't know how DISAPPOINTED I was back when I played Heroes' Final Story, static looking at the TV and saying to myself as the Chaos Emeralds surrounded Team Sonic: "It's now, they'll all go Suuuuper!". NOPE. Have some shields, ew, whatever.

 

Maan.. bad times.

[Rad Dudesman]

Hell, since Sonic '06 all we get to see on the timeline is utter confusion thanks to how Sonic Rush (confirmed canon) and Rivals (also confirmed canon, BY HIM, nonetheless) collide in background and whatnot. 

They don't really collide that much. It was never flatout stated that Eggman Nega was from Blaze's world, just that he had been there prior to Rush.

In Rush, Eggman referred to Blaze's world as "his world", but in Rush Adventure, which was released after Rivals, he just calls it "this world".

And Eggman Nega being Eggman's descendant and intentionally modelling himself after Eggman is far more believable than two men in separate dimensions looking indentical and both calling themselves Eggman when everyone else in said dimensions (Sonic and Blaze, Tails and Marine) are completely different from each other.

[ZDozer]

Iizuka confirmed that Nega is Eggman's descendant. The problem is the galore it generates between Rivals and Rush (as if there wasn't confusion already, what with Sonic not knowing Nega in Rivals 1 when he met him in the first Rush).

This is actually the main cause of why the Modern Era's timeline is so fucked up.

Edited August 14, 2015 by ZDozer

[Sean]

 

And Eggman Nega being Eggman's descendant and intentionally modelling himself after Eggman is far more believable than two men in separate dimensions looking indentical and both calling themselves Eggman when everyone else in said dimensions (Sonic and Blaze, Tails and Marine) are completely different from each other.

I actually find the idea of Eggman being capable of starting a family way less believable than this

[SenEDDtor Missile]

And Eggman Nega being Eggman's descendant and intentionally modelling himself after Eggman is far more believable than two men in separate dimensions looking indentical and both calling themselves Eggman when everyone else in said dimensions (Sonic and Blaze, Tails and Marine) are completely different from each other.

I actually find the idea of Eggman being capable of starting a family way less believable than this

Or maybe Eggman Nega is Eggman gone crazy after one too many failures and going out of his way to distance himself from his past self in every way possible. He's certainly enough of a liar to claim he's Eggman's descendant/person from another dimension to keep people confused. As for how he could still be alive by that point...time travel.

Edited August 14, 2015 by SenEDtor Missile

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I'd much rather believe Silver's future is only a few decades or so ahead, rather than 200 years or whatever. It makes much more sense for Nega to just be an old, old Eggman who succeeded too well one time and brought the world to it's bitter end.

 

Let's hope it's because he made a couple androids that were too powerful

[antyep]

While the whole 'male hedgehog can only go super' is kinda dumb, it does explain why Knuckles didn't become super with Sonic during SA1 and 2. I mean, he was right there with those emeralds. And as for the gate, you know that train in SA1 that leads you to the Mystic Ruins? Maybe that's the gate that travels between Earth and Mobius/Sonic's World/Whatever-land. It does explain why Sonic even bother taking a train when he can freakin out-run it in his sleep.

But yeah, figuring out this mess is almost as bad as the space genies XP

[SenEDDtor Missile]

But yeah, figuring out this mess is almost as bad as the space genies XP

If you're talking about the Sonic Riders Zero Gravity stuff, I thought that was pretty self-explanatory:

Aliens fall onto Sonic's world, get mistaken for genies, they overtime breed into the bird population and become the Babylon Rogues. Easy :D.

[Dejimon11]

The super form thing being exclusive to male hedgehogs is just dumb in my opinion. Sonic's reasoning for having it is because he's the main character it's a lame excuse but I can let it pass. Shadow's reasoning for having a super form is because he has chaos energy around him so that makes sense. The only other character to actually get a super form is knuckles only because he's the guardian of the master emerald you know the thing controls the chaos emeralds and not to mention he was able to punch the super out of sonic. 

 

As for the 2 worlds thing thats just dumb and I feel as if it kinda contradicts somethings and raises a bunch of questions but it does explain why egg man kept calling the planet "sonic's world" in colors though

[Shaddy Zaphod]

The only other character to actually get a super form is knuckles only because he's the guardian of the master emerald you know the thing controls the chaos emeralds and not to mention he was able to punch the super out of sonic.

I'm not sure if you mean Knuckles has a canon super form (he doesn't) or that he should have one. Also, you missed Silver.

And the whole "male hedgehogs only" thing is definite bullshit. Like, you could at least say it's not exclusive to males, and then say that Amy doesn't have the amount of power required. Like, that would say a lot about Blaze, right? And she's definitely stronger than Amy.

[Clewis]

This whole "Two Worlds" thing sounds just as ridiculous now as it did a few weeks ago. It kinda makes me wonder what other kinds of unnecessary questions have answers lying within the Sonic bible.

- Why can Eggman run faster than Sonic in the classic trilogy?

- How can characters breathe in space but not underwater?

- How did the Eggmen ever escape White Space?

- Why are there Wisps in Lost World?

- Why can't Sonic pull this off every time he falls out of the stratosphere:

Edited August 14, 2015 by Clewis

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Makes you wonder how many multiple worlds there are? We seemingly have non-earth AKA Sonic's world AKA Mobius? And then we have the normal-ish earth... And Little Planet... And the Lost Hex... Am I missing any? Of course this is not counting other dimensions such as Blaze's world... Or the extra alien worlds such as Planet Wisp...

[King Scoopa Koopa]

The super form thing being exclusive to male hedgehogs is just dumb in my opinion. Sonic's reasoning for having it is because he's the main character it's a lame excuse but I can let it pass. Shadow's reasoning for having a super form is because he has chaos energy around him so that makes sense. The only other character to actually get a super form is knuckles only because he's the guardian of the master emerald you know the thing controls the chaos emeralds and not to mention he was able to punch the super out of sonic. 

 

As for the 2 worlds thing thats just dumb and I feel as if it kinda contradicts somethings and raises a bunch of questions but it does explain why egg man kept calling the planet "sonic's world" in colors though

Sonic the Haruhi.

[Salamander]

I really wouldn't worry too much about the "male hedgehog" thing.  It's practically the same as saying that the only characters who presently have Super forms are male hedgehogs, which is entirely true.  And the reason why it's true is because both Shadow and Silver were meant to be protagonist-type characters with clear parallels to Sonic, and that's why they were designed as male hedgehogs.  In other words, the reason nobody else can have Super forms is because Sonic Team has no intention of introducing any new Super-worthy characters who are not male hedgehogs, because such characters have to echo the title character of the franchise, Sonic.  The sexism (and, less relevantly, speciesism) goes higher than Super-form requirements; it's a matter of the kind of character they're willing to make into a protagonist.  (Even then, Burning Blaze suggests they don't have a blanket grudge against important female characters, but let's not forget that she starred in a handheld spin-off, with Sonic's name front and centre.)  I could see us potentially getting a female hedgehog main protagonist in the future (...like, quite a way, when they're willing to make games with an actual story again), and you can bet she'd have a Super form if so.

...This is a roundabout way of saying that I don't think the rule should be regarded as "canon."  Factual, certainly, but not narrative.

And Eggman Nega being Eggman's descendant and intentionally modelling himself after Eggman is far more believable than two men in separate dimensions looking indentical and both calling themselves Eggman when everyone else in said dimensions (Sonic and Blaze, Tails and Marine) are completely different from each other.

Not really.  The Chaos Emeralds and the Sol Emeralds are blatant counterparts, for instance, and Blaze has pretty clear elements of both Sonic and Knuckles with her own twist.  The two worlds are parallel worlds, between which certain key individuals and relics parallel each other.  Nonetheless, "Eggman Nega" is still a bit on-the-nose, and I actually went back and replayed Rush a while ago and Blaze had never seen him before and it wasn't even clear he came from Blaze's world.  Oh, it's suggested, sure, implied, but I don't recall it being stated.  The Rivals retcon holds up.

[Meta77]

Wait some fans consider the super emeralds non cannon? I have always considered them cannon.