Jump to content
Awoo.

Sega's Secret Sonic Bible that we'll probably never see "TO MARS!"


Badnik Mechanic

Recommended Posts

... Fuck man. 

He's also a comic book character. And an anime character. And a slapstick comedy character. And a sitcom character. And apparently, he's gonna be a movie character. What's your point?

So, you don't see Sonic as a video game character above all of that?

Hm, see I can get this multiquote thing to work.

Yes that's right.

So why are you bringing gameplay/technical stuff into it? That's what goes into your design document for the game.

Look say they have a bit in the bible (and they do) saying "Sonic is X dimensions by these dimensions" You have to stick to that rule, that means you have to make sonic to those standards. But it doesn't mean you have to limit him to a specific gameplay type.

That is what goes in your videogame design document. 

 

I'm saying it's bloody stupid to divide the two up (assuming any kind of video game design document exists). Should that be the case then it explains why Sonic games tend to be so mediocre. If the self-described "bible" for your video game character has nothing to do with the process of making said video game then you're doing something wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's simple really :

-In the Sonic universe Earth and Moebius are 2 different planets.

-The Super Emerald makes Angel Island able to appear in both Earth and Moebius at the same time.

-Sonic and his pals frequents Angel Island in order to go to Earth/Moebius.

-Eggman has his own teleportation gate powered by the fake Super Emerald he fabricated in Sonic 3 (well if Chaos Emeralds can have fake versions so can the Master Emerald right ?)

-Humans are used to seeing Moebians in SA2 because of the events of SA1.

-Sonic is born on the Moebius version of Christmas Island and lives in the Moebius version of South Island (as hyped as i can be knowing that I live on the island right above the real Christmas Island, this is the only legit explanation that fits)

-Chaos Emeralds can't travel across planets, which explains why whenever the Chaos Emeralds scatter they always end up in the same planet.

Edited by NoirSuede
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm saying it's bloody stupid to divide the two up (assuming any kind of video game design document exists). Should that be the case then it explains why Sonic games tend to be so mediocre. If the self-described "bible" for your video game character has nothing to do with the process of making said video game then you're doing something wrong.

Does all documentation on the series have to be about gameplay, either entirely or in part? Like, if this bible doesn't mention anything about gameplay, I highly doubt this is the only video game franchise to have a series bible that focuses on stuff like how the universe works, what things are canon and what aren't, etc.

Not to mention, some of the rules we know about, and probably many others we don't know about, do affect the games in some way (for better and worse), particularly with regards to story and setting. I'm not sure how that has nothing to do with the process of making the games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does all documentation on the series have to be about gameplay, either entirely or in part? Like, if this bible doesn't mention anything about gameplay, I highly doubt this is the only video game franchise to have a series bible that focuses on stuff like how the universe works, what things are canon and what aren't, etc.

Not to mention, some of the rules we know about, and probably many others we don't know about, do affect the games in some way (for better and worse), particularly with regards to story and setting. I'm not sure how that has nothing to do with the process of making the games.

When your documentation is a self described "bible" for a video game character then yes. Gameplay, music, sound design, graphical aesthetics, character sheets, the whole shebang. They'd just be different chapters of said bible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...how many dev bibles have you seen before?

I mean, any other time this would be a rhetorical question, but seeing as you're inexplicably the unspoken authority on development documents I don't feel it's unfair to ask if you've actually read one before.

  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this must be correct.  The leaker stated that Mobius isn't the name of "the world," which presumably refers to Sonic's world, since Earth is named Earth.  Therefore we have Earth, Sonic's World, and Mobius.  (Still think this is almost certainly being taken literally or isn't actually meant to be significant in the games.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only boy hedgehogs can go super, Super Emeralds and Hyper modes aren't a thing, Sonic games take place across two worlds, and franchise bibles and game design documents are two different things.

And, depending on who you ask about which, all of these notions are ridiculous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, and franchise bibles and game design documents are two different things.

They are.

Franchise bible = How you make the characters and the world.

Game design document = How you make/What the game will be like when finished.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 and franchise bibles and game design documents are two different things.

In the case of a video game, only if you don't value the latter.

Edited by They lie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the case of a video game, only if you don't value the latter.

Do you have access to any other franchise bibles that have strict gameplay documentation in them? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, you don't see Sonic as a video game character above all of that?

At this point? No, I don't. At this point, the games give me so little to care about. I pretty much stay for the comics and I read fanfiction. The sheer portfolio of shit that Sonic has been at this point is far too impressive to label him as a videogame character and nothing else. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you have access to any other franchise bibles that have strict gameplay documentation in them? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

If you're going to try the "you don't know shit cause you haven't seen it" argument, you might not want to be a similar position as the person you're arguing with (unless you'd like to leak the bible of some random video game for us all to see).

Though there is google, this quote seems fitting

"If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That's something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible,"

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/inafune-mario-is-development-bible-for-game-creators/1100-6415489/

Well, there ya go. Sure Kenji Inafune isn't the best creator but he does know a thing or two.

@Shadowhunt60   

Fair enough. Sonic ain't what he used to be after all.

Edited by They lie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

If you're going to try the "you don't know shit cause you haven't seen it" argument, you might not want to be a similar position as the person you're arguing with (unless you'd like to leak the bible of some random video game for us all to see).

Yes, my position is that I don't know the entire contents of the Bible nor any other documentation Sonic Team has on gameplay in their office. Therefore, the only correct conclusion to draw from this Bible is not proof of any stance they have concerning gameplay, positive or negative. There is nothing to draw from at this point in time given what we know.

You on the other hand are using your admitted ignorance to posit an assertion Sonic Team doesn't care about the gameplay. It's completely irrational and yet you're prancing across this topic acting like you've got them all figured out.

  • Thumbs Up 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the case of a video game, only if you don't value the latter.

By that logic then the existence of a game design document without sections dedicated to things other than gameplay would devalue non-gameplay elements.

I think you're really reading too much into the idea of a "Bible" here. It doesn't mean that this document is the end-all-be-all of everthing Sonic, it's just a term for a document covering the non-gameplay elements of a franchise, no more, no less. You might as well try to argue that the actual Bible devalues science because it doesn't have sections devoted to the mechanics of Newtonian physics.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has it not occurred to a certain someone that there could be different volumes within the Sonic Bible itself? Like... what exactly is the problem with separating story continuity; the world-building and lore aspect of a series, and raw gameplay; the aspects that involve how the player plays the game and interacts with said world and its rules, in separate, distinct volumes? This isn't that difficult to comprehend, or at least I thought that was the case. Am I missing something here, is this somehow a no-no? Does having separate documents somehow make cause for contradiction or invalidation? How in blazes is this even an issue? We should be arguing over why there are two planets in the first place, not whether Aaron Webber and Takashi Iizuka are trustworthy because only certain story aspects of the canon (and possibly Game Design) of the franchise's Bible has been leaked? I liked arguing about Sonic's arm colors more.

 

 

 

 

Blue arms suck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are.

Franchise bible = How you make the characters and the world.

Game design document = How you make/What the game will be like when finished.

Right?

i can't tell if you're trying to correct me or just elaborating on what I was saying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this must be correct.  The leaker stated that Mobius isn't the name of "the world," which presumably refers to Sonic's world, since Earth is named Earth.  Therefore we have Earth, Sonic's World, and Mobius.  (Still think this is almost certainly being taken literally or isn't actually meant to be significant in the games.)

From the context of what he's saying, I'd suggest that the leaker means that Sonic's World is not called "Mobius" but is functionally equivalent to the concept (i.e. a world of primarily non-humans), occupying a similar position relative to Earth in Sonic's universe as Mars is to Earth in ours.

For the record, AAUK (Kevin Eva) who was the community manager of Sega Europe at the time had stated that Sonic Chronicles was one of the "non-canon" ones, anyway.

While I severely doubt SEGA will reference Chronicle's events again any time soon, haven't SEGA revised their views of canon since Kevin's statement? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression he said things like Rush and Secret of the Rings weren't canon, however they later appeared in Generations, implying a policy shift?

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I remember, he specifically said that the following "story-arcs" were canon:
The Genesis games (Sonic 1, 2, 3K and CD)
The Adventure-Shadow saga (SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow)
The Riders saga (Riders 1 and 2)
The Rush games (Rush and Rush Adventure)

Beyond that, I can't remember. Special mention for him specifically saying that Chronicles was not canon, especially due to the cliffhanger. It'd be a huge dig, but can someone help source the original quote?

Sega Forums, circa 2008-2009. Good luuuuuuck to ye who attempt it.

As an aside, good luck having Sega ever reference Chronicles again, what with the Penders fiasco that arose from it. I don't think Sega ever wants to touch the "Dark Brotherhood" again.

And it's also likely that Generations itself isn't even canon. Blaze and Silver are mentioned remembering events from Sonic 2006, a game that specifically ended with a "everyone's memory wiped it never happened" ending. Referencing Secret Rings is probably no different from that.

Edited by Indigo Rush
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I remember, he specifically said that the following "story-arcs" were canon:
The Genesis games (Sonic 1, 2, 3K and CD)
The Adventure-Shadow saga (SA1, SA2, Heroes, Shadow)
The Riders saga (Riders 1 and 2)
The Rush games (Rush and Rush Adventure)

Beyond that, I can't remember. Special mention for him specifically saying that Chronicles was not canon, especially due to the cliffhanger. It'd be a huge dig, but can someone help source the original quote?

Sega Forums, circa 2008-2009. Good luuuuuuck to ye who attempt it.

As an aside, good luck having Sega ever reference Chronicles again, what with the Penders fiasco that arose from it. I don't think Sega ever wants to touch the "Dark Brotherhood" again.

And it's also likely that Generations itself isn't even canon. Blaze and Silver are mentioned remembering events from Sonic 2006, a game that specifically ended with a "everyone's memory wiped it never happened" ending. Referencing Secret Rings is probably no different from that.

By ancient lore and powers dark, I've managed to find the original quote:

 

"We've already had this on Bumbleking. "I want someone from SOJ or Bioware otherwise its not real" I've got news for you, good luck finding either on here or on Bumbleking. If SOE/A word isn't good enough for you you're REALLY in the wrong forum! smile.png

Now you can either take the word of the Community Manager who has worked on ever single Sonic related game since Rush Adventure, who knows the standpoint on Chronicles from Japan, has discussed such matters with Sonic Team and coincidentally, has been the only one to actually address this with you guys orrr you can cling on to the belief that the events of Chronicles are somehow now written in stone for all things Sonic.

Its highly likely some points will bleed in to canon, but the only "events" that should realistically be considered current game series canon and defining the story of Sonic's world are those from the main thread of consoles titles post-Sonic Adventure. Even then some of those events that happened within have been retconed over the years to varying degrees.

So to my knowledge the following are concrete as having "happened".

- ARK Incident (50 Years Ago)
- {Events Of Sonic 1-3&K in some form}
- Station Square Incident, Unleashing of Perfect Chaos (SA1)
- Awakening Of Shadow, Fall Of ARK (SA2)
- Return of Metal Sonic and the overthrow of Eggman (Heroes)
- Coming Of The Black Comet and The Black Arms War (ShTH)
- The shattering of the world / Coming of Dark/Light Gaia. (Unleashed)
- The Encounter With The Wisps (Colours)

I hope I've not left anything out... the might change their minds in time. Now, i'm not counting Sonic 4 in this currently as obviously we don't know the full story with that as yet, I think you can probably pencil it in if you like after S&K in that list. Storybook - No. M&S - No. Rush/Rush Adv - You can't really say it is as its the whole future/alternate dimension thing which has already proven to be in flux. Sonic 06 - The events of the game prevented it from ever happening in the first place. Rivals - arguably R2 might be, but you've got the whole future thing with Silver again. Everything I've heard tells me no to both however.

Of course to me I'm quite open to the fact that there are multiple-continuities Original Mobius Story/Modern Earth Continuity/Fleetway/Archie/SatAM/Underground/Sonic X/etc and try not to get hung up on such details about which is the "true" one... "

 

While I don't think that Chronicles will be referenced again for the reasons you say, I don't reckon the cliffhanger would be irreconcilable with current canon if you assume that it leads straight into Sonic Unleashed - that would give a convenient reason for how Eggman built such a massive space fleet and doomsday weapon unopposed, as well as how he was working on his Interstellar Amusment Park for "several years" (i.e. in the time Sonic and co were away in the Twilight Cage).

If they were bright, they could write Shade out of the series by dropping some throwaway line about her going off alone to find her place in the world or something - or even better, say that she's doing timeshare with Knuckles guarding the Master Emerald, giving him a reason for abandoning Angel Island periodically; either reason would mean she could never be seen again and still be in canon technically. The Nocturnus meanwhile shouldn't ever need to return; due to Twilight Cage time dilation, if the war they were left fighting with the other denizens lasts more than a couple of weeks, they won't be seen again for decades if not centuries.

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But Chronicles is set a time after their 'final' fight with Eggman, there was a summary that cited two years specifically. If time is in a perpetual state of 'now' thereabouts, the series can never reach there, thus Shade has never met these characters and likely never will. 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But Chronicles is set a time after their 'final' fight with Eggman, there was a summary that cited two years specifically. If time is in a perpetual state of 'now' thereabouts, the series can never reach there, thus Shade has never met these characters and likely never will. 

The "final" fight is only final from the perspective of the game itself; the protaganists believe Eggman gone, so the characters (and the manual summary) reference it as such. Indeed, Eggman himself survives to cause chaos again, so even within the plot itself it was never the "final" fight. The two year downtime wouldn't necessarily cause problems with the rest of the plot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the context of what he's saying, I'd suggest that the leaker means that Sonic's World is not called "Mobius" but is functionally equivalent to the concept (i.e. a world of primarily non-humans), occupying a similar position relative to Earth in Sonic's universe as Mars is to Earth in ours.

Interesting.  Okay, let's take a look: "Also, when making a game, you have to choose to either set it in Sonic's world (without people) or on "Earth" (with people.) Mobius is an official thing in Sonic's universe, but it is not the name of the world itself. It's actually the Sonic universe's equivalent to Mars."  So when he says "Mobius," your suggestion is that we read that as "the idea of Mobius, a Sonic & anthros planet," so the result of his statement is essentially "Mobius exists but isn't called Mobius, and it's the same distance from Earth as Mars is from us."  Okay, sure, I'll buy that.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, my position is that I don't know the entire contents of the Bible nor any other documentation Sonic Team has on gameplay in their office. Therefore, the only correct conclusion to draw from this Bible is not proof of any stance they have concerning gameplay, positive or negative. There is nothing to draw from at this point in time given what we know.

You on the other hand are using your admitted ignorance to posit an assertion Sonic Team doesn't care about the gameplay. It's completely irrational and yet you're prancing across this topic acting like you've got them all figured out.

Then why do you bother with this thread which is %99.9 percent speculation (the remaining percentage being "Oh, Sonic is from Mars")? Don't single me out because you personally don't like the idea that Sonic Team may not have established rules for gameplay mechanics (which is a very high probability based on the games themselves). 

I think you're really reading too much into the idea of a "Bible" here. It doesn't mean that this document is the end-all-be-all of everthing Sonic, it's just a term for a document covering the non-gameplay elements of a franchise, no more, no less. You might as well try to argue that the actual Bible devalues science because it doesn't have sections devoted to the mechanics of Newtonian physics.

Don't pretend as though "Bible" isn't synonymous with end all be all book of law. Yeah, if they didn't call it a "bible" and instead called it "Character design documents" or "Sonic Story guide" then yeah, it wouldn't affect much but they didn't.

Somewhat related note: Currently watching "The Last Temptation of Christ". Good flick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.