Sonic Unleashed

[EuroMIX]

There are only more Wii night stages in number, lengthwise a couple of them equal the full length of a single HD night stage.

Also while I'd have LOVED more day stages, I wouldn't have wanted less night stages. The Werehog is hardly as bad as everyone makes out.

[JezMM]

Yeah that's true. If you play through EVERY level including DLC on 360, there is more Day than Night. But in both versions, on the main story, you still spend more time as Werehog than Hedgehog on the mandatory levels.

Having said that, the unique Wii Day levels are shorter than the 360 ones too, so the ratio is still higher just about.

(Note: I keep saying "unique" day levels because I'm not including the mandatory missions you must do after each one, which does pad it out to the length of the 360 levels - but a short stage and two missions still isn't as good as one long stage).

[EuroMIX]

Right continuing from where we left off in the Sonic and the Black Knight/Sonic Unleashed Wii vs HD discussion thread:

I'm almost done with this topic because it's obvious my opinions are very different and so it's not likely people will quite get them, and I don't want to keep repeating the same sort of thing over and over and annoying everyone.

I'm very easy to please graphic-wise. For me Unleashed Wii looks fine and I guess I don't naturally pick out many of the graphic flaws that many of you would. The game's levels seem well structured, they feel to me like real places, not in the literal Earth-like way, but they feel as good as anything in prior Sonic games. I suppose you could say I don't expect the Wii version to be the HD one, because I know it would be impossible. Considering the Wii versions development played second fiddle to the HD one I'm surprised it looked half as good as it did.

And I dunno, I guess I sort of LIKE the slightly more simplistic graphics, they feel more fun and fantasy-like. A lot of the levels, especially the 2D perspective bits really do feel like something from a Sonic Advance game but in 3D, and despite the 'floating racetrack' syndrome there is no doubt that it suits a high speed Sonic formula well.

EggmanLand for me was the perfect fusion of speedy platforming in 3D. I love the whole dark but slightly wacky theme of the level, and even though it gets very tricky later on so long as you get used to the level structure it's challenging but still fun. The narrow walkways don't seem and bad so long as you learn the route and use the boosters correctly, and just yesterday I finally S ranked it.

I also love many of the Werehog levels and I think it was a great idea to cut them up so that it's possible to play them again in short bursts and not get as frustrated. Again, yesterday I went through the few on EggmanLand I'd only got A ranks on in order to collect more sun medals, namely: Infiltration, Beyond The Factory, To Zero Point and Dark Gaia Cauldron, and even the latter specifically was reasonably challenging but not excruciatingly so. Believe it or not but I actually had a good time replaying these levels.

Also I LOVE the puzzle rooms in the Gaia Gate's.

I'd totally love another Unleashed Wii, Werehog and all (though I'd like some tweaks to the night stages), but developed at the same time and level as the HD versions so that it's potential could be fully realised and not have dropped content this time. No it still wouldn't look half as good as the HD version but I wouldn't care because it would be fun to play and I know that Sonic Team and DIMPS would do their best despite the technical limitations, which means more effort on their part and more fun on mine.

[Sega DogTagz]

Considering the Wii versions development played second fiddle to the HD one I'm surprised it looked half as good as it did.

You cant give bonus points to a game because it reached decent graphical performance while playing second fiddle. Whats there is there, dont make excuses for anything.

I think the Wii version was a perfectly suitable port that is obviously caught in the shadow of its HD big brother. It does a few things right here and there (although I still have a massive gripe with the collision detection) and is an overall enjoyable experience. You cant really hold it up against the PS360 model, but at the end of the day your not really supposed to due to the limitations of various consoles.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Sega DogTagz

[The_Soul_Gauge]

Also, would you want one 20-30+ min Werehog lvl each in the Wii version or (In total) less then 18-22 min werehog levels? Im not trying to push things down peoples throats but still.

I don't want to sound blunt, and I don't actually hate the Werehog, but when I finish a (insert your favourite time of day here) level on one continent, I expect to finish it on that continent. While I'll admit the Wii version has better sense of flow, I'd prefer a bit more polish, which the 360 version delivered.

Having to play one single Sonic stage (the ones that progress the story, not just the optional ones) and then having to play a Werehog stage, finish it, then play another Werehog stage ON THE SAME CONTINENT, finish it, then play another Werehog stage ON THE SAME CONTINENT (add previous one or two more times on later levels), it just feels insulting. This coming from someone who welcomed the Werehog/concept-of-a-greater-focus-on-platforming with open arms.

Werehog on the 360 is probably more longer than the other 3-5 nighttime stages on the Wii version, but when we finish it, we finish it. The Werehog may not have been the ideal "franchise revival of the century" plan, they at least were honest about having to play him to prgress (and keeping something of a promise to those who enjoy playing not just regular Sonic), not three times before we finish an effin' continent.

HOWEVER, if it was three Daytime AND Nighttime levels on the same continent, if laid out properly, then that's something to think about. I love Unleashed, I just don't think that the ultimate comeback strategy would be "MAOR WEREHOG LEVELS", at least not more than the Sonic stages.

Edited August 13, 2009 by The_Soul_Gauge

[JezMM]

Right continuing from where we left off in the Sonic and the Black Knight/Sonic Unleashed Wii vs HD discussion thread:

I'm almost done with this topic because it's obvious my opinions are very different and so it's not likely people will quite get them, and I don't want to keep repeating the same sort of thing over and over and annoying everyone.

Don't feel bad, I'm enjoying the discussion, I don't consider it an argument at all really, just an exchange of ideas.

I'm very easy to please graphic-wise. For me Unleashed Wii looks fine and I guess I don't naturally pick out many of the graphic flaws that many of you would. The game's levels seem well structured, they feel to me like real places, not in the literal Earth-like way, but they feel as good as anything in prior Sonic games. I suppose you could say I don't expect the Wii version to be the HD one, because I know it would be impossible. Considering the Wii versions development played second fiddle to the HD one I'm surprised it looked half as good as it did.

I'm very easy too, I still think Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time are beautiful games. It annoyed me with Wii Unleashed because they -could- have done better. Maybe it was more because it had to be portable to PS2 as well that it got such a downgrade. But as said, even older Sonic games were more lively, and not only that, the final boss proved they could at least have vaguely reproduced the same levels as the 360 one and had more platforming and less running along straight roads and turning, and chaining together movements that are pretty much set up to be impossible to fail most of the time.

And I dunno, I guess I sort of LIKE the slightly more simplistic graphics, they feel more fun and fantasy-like. A lot of the levels, especially the 2D perspective bits really do feel like something from a Sonic Advance game but in 3D, and despite the 'floating racetrack' syndrome there is no doubt that it suits a high speed Sonic formula well.

I personally like the huge amount of unneccesary scenery because it emphasised the speed for me. I feel like I'm blasting through a real place for the first time ever. All the previous games gave me plenty of experience blasting through mere "obstacle courses".

I also love many of the Werehog levels and I think it was a great idea to cut them up so that it's possible to play them again in short bursts and not get as frustrated. Again, yesterday I went through the few on EggmanLand I'd only got A ranks on in order to collect more sun medals, namely: Infiltration, Beyond The Factory, To Zero Point and Dark Gaia Cauldron, and even the latter specifically was reasonably challenging but not excruciatingly so. Believe it or not but I actually had a good time replaying these levels.

The Wii Werehog levels annoy me personally because they're so slow, and the combat is so clunky. The level-up system on the 360 and combat are so much smoother and choreographed, with at least four times as many animations and combos as the Wii one has. After fully upgrading, I took great pleasure in replaying Werehog levels on 360, because some I can now beat in a mere 3-5 minutes. That's a great feeling. The Wii stages can be a bit of a slog though because EVERY enemy must be defeated (the 360 version has many more alternative routes and optional battles that if you're clever enough you can get through without defeating enemies). They take as long to beat now as they did the first time. Unfortunately, the Sonic levels have just got easier with replay time, so replaying the whole game I spend faaar too long as Werehog.

Also I LOVE the puzzle rooms in the Gaia Gate's.

I loved these too, but I'd have much rather have them set in proper hubs instead of lazy temples.

I'd totally love another Unleashed Wii, Werehog and all (though I'd like some tweaks to the night stages), but developed at the same time and level as the HD versions so that it's potential could be fully realised and not have dropped content this time. No it still wouldn't look half as good as the HD version but I wouldn't care because it would be fun to play and I know that Sonic Team and DIMPS would do their best despite the technical limitations, which means more effort on their part and more fun on mine.

I'd like to hope the next multi-format game is developed simultaneously, and not just have the Wii/PS2 versions as money-making afterthoughts. As mentioned, the Dark Gaia final boss proves that they could more-or-less port level designs with a little effort.

[EuroMIX]

I'm not sure, I'd rather have levels developed off the same idea but with a different structure rather than a simple copy/paste of the HD stages with downgraded graphics. The latter suffers from the option of everyone claiming the Wii version simply as the same game but with inferior graphics, while the former allows Sonic Team to play around with more ideas, provide Wii owners with something a little different and also make the drop in graphics seem less jarring. It also gives multiple system owners a good excuse to maybe try both versions and not feel 'cheated' because they would both have their individual merits.

I'd be happy for Sonic Team to continue the idea of making the same game with two differing versions to suit each platform. Then again if the Wii version was developed for that platform alone and didn't have to be made to work on the PS2 as well it most definitely could be a lot better, not to the level of the HD version, but the option would be there for Sonic Team to push the hardware a little more because we KNOW the Wii can do better then a lot of what we've seen so far from many games on the system. I very much doubt that Sonic Team would be the top pioneers of maximising the system's hardware though, that's Nintendo and High Voltage Software's job it seems, still Secret Rings and Black Knight proves that Sonic Team can develop a game dedicated to the system.

This only my opinion though.

[Reading]

I'm not sure, I'd rather have levels developed off the same idea but with a different structure rather than a simple copy/paste of the HD stages with downgraded graphics. The latter suffers from the option of everyone claiming the Wii version simply as the same game but with inferior graphics, while the former allows Sonic Team to play around with more ideas, provide Wii owners with something a little different and also make the drop in graphics seem less jarring.

It doesn't matter now that I have a 360, but if I still only had a Wii, I would've preferred a copy of the PS360 version with worse graphics than the Sonic Unleashed they actually made for the PS2 and Wii. The 360 version isn't one of my favorite Sonic games, but in my opinion, it's, like, an order of magnitude above the Wii one.

Of course, although I'd prefer to have the multi-system games as similar as possible to each other, my distaste for the Wii Unleashed might be skewing my judgment...if they actually made well-designed designed stages, I'd be more accepting of a difference between the PS360 and WiiS2 versions. Don't get me wrong, this is, of course, my opinion, but I thought Unleashed Wii's Daytime stages were abysmal in both design and gameplay (with the exception of Eggmanland, which had nice design). The Werehog was OK, but again, I didn't like the design in most of the stages, and only once I reached the Eggmanland gauntlet did I find stages I thought were challenging and fun. The entirety of the Wii version just felt like a half-baked excuse to have a game called "Sonic Unleashed" on the Wii and PS2, without any real concern about design or quality, and if they're going to make a seperate WiiS2 version of the next major game, I think they'd better put some effort into it.

...But obviously, I could be wrong. I'm not intending to degrade or insult anyone or their opinions with this post. To put a good word in for Unleashed WiiS2, it did provide at least some enjoyment for me, and it seems like it would be the perfect game to introduce someone unfamiliar with video games in general to the Sonic series. Lots of tutorial and description, fairly easy gameplay, good pacing...

I've heard that it's difficult to "port down" 360 and PS3 games to the Wii. I'm not sure exactly how difficult it is, but if I was developing a Sonic game, I would first develop it to its maximum potential on the Wii, and then bring it to the other two systems and see what fancy effects I could add.

[EuroMIX]

I've heard that it's difficult to "port down" 360 and PS3 games to the Wii. I'm not sure exactly how difficult it is, but if I was developing a Sonic game, I would first develop it to its maximum potential on the Wii, and then bring it to the other two systems and see what fancy effects I could add.

The problem is I doubt that this would work because the Wii and HD consoles are built off completely different architectures, so while porting between the 360 and PS3 is possible due to being fairly similar systems in many ways, trying to port up or down to the Wii just wouldn't work because the engines used would be optimised to work on each particular console. The hedgehog engine simply couldn't run on Wii because it's not designed to run on the hardware, Sonic Team would have to take said engine and develop a version for the Wii which would work and that would take a lot of time.

That said despite Unleashed Wii most likely being a big money maker for Sonic Team (I'm not sure of the numbers but I'd assume it sold well) I still think a lot of love went into it's design, a lot more than games like Rock Band had, but also a lot less than the HD version. I still don't quite get how people class many of the levels as inherently 'empty' because I think there is enough in them (although maybe they could do with a little more here and there it's hardly game-breaking), but then again that could just be perspective, after playing the HD version perhaps the Wii version does seem jarringly 'empty' in comparison. I still don't think it's quite as bad as everyone makes it out to be, besides most of the HD day stages can be just as narrow and 'racetrack-like' except that that version just seems able to hide it better within the graphics engine.

[JezMM]

That said despite Unleashed Wii most likely being a big money maker for Sonic Team (I'm not sure of the numbers but I'd assume it sold well) I still think a lot of love went into it's design, a lot more than games like Rock Band had, but also a lot less than the HD version. I still don't quite get how people class many of the levels as inherently 'empty' because I think there is enough in them (although maybe they could do with a little more here and there it's hardly game-breaking), but then again that could just be perspective, after playing the HD version perhaps the Wii version does seem jarringly 'empty' in comparison. I still don't think it's quite as bad as everyone makes it out to be, besides most of the HD day stages can be just as narrow and 'racetrack-like' except that that version just seems able to hide it better within the graphics engine.

I'm afraid to say there's nothing phychological about it. I actually directly compared the two versions of Apotos for a freelance comparison review I wrote once, and on the Wii, you only have to jump twice to finish the level. The HD version on the other hand, requires a minimum of about 10 jumps (not including rail-switching).

This is why I personally percieve the Wii version to be empty. Not just the envioronments, but the HD version has tons more platforming.

I admit, I'd be very dissapointed with Unleashed if the Wii one was the only version. I appreciate it more BECAUSE of the HD version, because it's like "Alternative Unleashed" for me, rather than just "Unleashed".

When I think about it, if the HD version didn't exist, I probably wouldn't have though as much of the lower-spec version due to it having so little platforming, thus I wouldn't have been able to get my "fix". Lol.

At first I liked the Wii's Werehog more for platforming and puzzles, but repeated play of both versions steered me off it. The Wii version is so clunky compared to the HD version. Both combat and platforming. On 360 every move blends into one another wonderfully, but on Wii Sonic feels very stiff, and every command you give him feels seperate.

[EuroMIX]

I don't tend to watch how much I jump or anything, I just play the levels and have a good time. I didn't realise I was only jumping two times and I suppose that only helps in proving of how little importance such a thing is to me.

Is there really a system or science to what elements a game has to to have to be fun or a Sonic level has to be 'filled' and 'populated'? I'm sorry that I find something so simple actually fun, I know I should hate the Wii version for not being as good as the HD one yet I cannot because I genuinely have enjoyed playing it and feel it was money well spent. I just don't feel like Sonic Team have cheated me as some comments make me feel like they may well have done.

Yes I was left wanting more, and I would love to have seen the unfinished Mazuri levels and potential ideas for Empire City but I still enjoy the game without them. I wouldn't worry about it too much, I do sometimes tend to find enjoyment where others see rubbish. I'm just weird like that.

[JezMM]

Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy it. The lack of platforming is a personal peeve, and as I said, the fact that I got my fix from the HD version probably made me appreciate the Wii version even more.

It's as if the Wii version was a spin-off called "Sonic Unleashed: Race Mode!" or something to me. I very much enjoyed it for what it was, all I'm saying is what it was, was very different from the HD game.

HD is straight up platforming, whereas SD is much more about fine-tuning your route, turning, chaining and boost management to get a superb time (after all, the ranking system is based on it).

For that, it does a great job, but yeah, I can admit I personally would have been dissapointed if that was the new Sonic "platformer" I had been waiting for.

[EuroMIX]

Well Sonic has hardly been everyone's favourite platformer in 3D since most schemes seem to be shaky at best and from what I've seen of the HD stages which use platforming more prominently, it's hardly the day stages best feature.

I think this was partly Sonic Teams thinking when adding the Werehog: they couldn't find a 3D scheme which allowed them to provide speed and platforming in equal measure without one of the two suffering so they decided to create two stage designs, one designed for speed with minimal platforming the other platforming with less speed.

The design of the Wii day stages is hardly surprising considering DIMPS background though, the Sonic Advance series quickly evolved into high speed levels involving chaining attacks, tricks, gimmicks and deft platforming. It makes sense that their take on 3D Sonic stages would follow a similar theme.

EggmanLand Wii is definitely one of my favourite 3D levels for combining challenge and speed though, once you understand what to do it's a thrill to race through and the HD version looks rather long and cumbersome in comparison. I do love the idea of switching between Sonic and the Werehog as a level strategy, it's just a shame that on Eggmanland HD it's looks very long winded and awkward. I love the level design on both versions though, especially the Twinkle Park rollercoaster throwback in the HD version. <3

Also those 'tightrope' balancing sections look TERRIBLE. Are they as awkward to play as they look?

Edited August 14, 2009 by Xavious

[JezMM]

Also those 'tightrope' balancing sections look TERRIBLE. Are they as awkward to play as they look?

They are, mainly thanks to odd camera angles and a few random portions of Eggmanland (including this one) suffer from a lack of shadows.

I loved Eggmanland HD though simply because, as a single level, it felt damn epic due to it's length. Almost comparable to a "final dungeon" in a Zelda game if you will. You hardly ever get that in a platformer. Loved it.

Wii version was an epic journey in it's own right, but was a bit more tiring due to Sonic and the Werehog being totally split up, rather than changing constantly like in the HD version.

[Reading]

I know I should hate the Wii version for not being as good as the HD one yet I cannot because I genuinely have enjoyed playing it and feel it was money well spent ... I do sometimes tend to find enjoyment where others see rubbish. I'm just weird like that.

Well, same here. Despite my ranting post above, I probably enjoyed Unleashed Wii more than most people did. It had its own particular "feeling" that I liked. For me, "bad" is not necessarily synonymous with "not enjoyable"; I didn't like the Daytime stages in the 360 Unleashed either, but I can still get fun out of replaying them. I enjoy playing Sonic's stages in Sonic 2006 even more than that, as a prime example of your last statement.

No one's forcing you to hate the Wii version, you know. Think what you want. It's just a video game.

I loved Eggmanland HD though simply because, as a single level, it felt damn epic due to it's length. Almost comparable to a "final dungeon" in a Zelda game if you will. You hardly ever get that in a platformer. Loved it.

I love epic-long final levels as well - it's just that they're so rare. A lot of times, the "final level" is a mini-level devoted to the boss. All three 3D Mario platformers have this (not that it diminishes my opinion of these games in any way), as well as Sonic 2, Kirby 64...why such small stages for such big bosses? (I mean, I understand the logic behind it, I just don't like it as much.)

Funny story, actually...when I finished Adabat Day Act 1 in the 360 version, it was a Sunday evening, and I was going to be busy in school the next week. I figured I'd stop there and beat the game on Friday, but I thought I'd check out Eggmanland a bit, so I entered the stage. The level started taking an extraordinarily long amount of time, and when I finished, I saw the end-of-Eggmanland cutscene I recognized from the Wii version. I thought, "Oh."

[Invictus Ordo]

Ummm yea. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7f5MJzPa-o...re=channel_page . . . Has this been discussed cause its the first time I've seen someone do this before, infact my Mind is blown by what this person accomplished and looking at this made me realize something. Why was there not a option to play the levels in reverse, I mean it would be a good idea and it might be away to increase the length of the next major Sonic game.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Omnis Invictus

[JezMM]

Commented with this on the video too, but if you watch carefully, there are clearly points where the creator uses those almost surreally nostalgic clips of people in Shamar to cover up the fact that he/she's skipped a little impossible bit.

However, in terms of the bits that were possible to do backwards, it was pretty awesome, especially the bits which required them to fly into the air and navigate back to the course.

[Eternal EX]

The video: Wow that was the best 9min sonic video I've seen in a long time. Wish they would've used Shamar's music instead of the that one song. And wow did he/she blow through Act 1. 2:01 mins....thats freakin crazy.

[The_Soul_Gauge]

Even tho we've already established how big knobs the reviewers are, there's just one thing that still irks me. There were some reviews I saw a while ago with people that just go over the leveling up feature and just go "...okay... so yeah, he's got a level up feature that helps him go faster... alright". I'm just thinking, "Okay...

...

...so?

...

So what? You're gonna tell us that it's bad? Without an explanation as to why? Sonic was never about the speed to begin with sure, but in this game he pretty much is and the leveling up feature actually helps achieving S-Ranks in the game, so... really what's the criticism here?"

It would have been fine if they actually did have something negative to say about it, because that way they would actually have had a reason to bring it up, but this is like listening to a joke without a punchline; you're waiting for the zinger, but the guy doesn't reveal squat, goes on his merry way thinking that he's done his job, and it just leaves you feeling empty inside. And people who don't have punchlines to their jokes aren't very funny at all.

(On a positive note)

I'll admit about Unleashed 360, is that while I actually enjoyed Heroes, Shadow, Secret Rings and even the PS2 version of Unleashed, I only played the first few levels of Unleashed 360 (both Sonic and Werehog stages), and thought "This is better. Just... flat-out better than the other games (I mentioned)."

[Frozen Nitrogen]

WELL.

I just finally managed to do the Eggmanland time trial. So, SO many failed attempts, but crazy perseverance finally won the day.

Although I now have a strong phobia of walking along pipes. :/

[PSI Wind]

^ Its easy if you practice enough. I can finish that mission very easily now.

[MobileChicaneX]

WELL.

I just finally managed to do the Eggmanland time trial. So, SO many failed attempts, but crazy perseverance finally won the day.

Although I now have a strong phobia of walking along pipes. :/

Hey frozen whats the dog called? oh and whats the xp you gain from it?

[JezMM]

Hey frozen whats the dog called? oh and whats the xp you gain from it?

It's called the

Doggone Dog

, and you gain 70 exp, as usual (as far as I remember).

[PSI Wind]

Played the 360 version again. Its much better now that I got used to the 360 controller. The boost is still my most hated feature but everything else I said is now changed. But another thing I hate is the ranking system. It relies on RINGS!

[The Conductor]

It's coming on a year now since I first got the game and I still haven't finished it Because I don't like looking for shitty medals:(