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Dear Internet: Grow Up


SuperStingray

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Your right you can't... so why has everyone been censored here again? If people are abusive then that is a problem for either youtube or for the individual who runs the account to block/censor the specific people doing that. Not a blanket nobody can comment.

 

Why exactly did you ignore the rest of my analogy and subsequently the ending of the post before that on this tangent:

 

And if this professor was consistently harassed in a similar manner as this by thousands of people in the school every single day, I would not be surprised if some special rules were put in place to protect him from that kind of abuse, which could potentially limit how much interaction you had with him, or even if he just quit the job outright. Furthermore, him quitting as a result of this kind of abuse would not mean he is adversed to having an actual debate about his philosophies.

 

 

 All in all, it's difficult to take this particular tangent seriously when we all know full and well the kind of online harassment people who subscribe to feminist theory can and do suffer; subsequently, it would be much easier to swallow if these kinds of comments were a once-in-a-million happenstance on this issue.

 

If a whole bunch of people were to start harassing a professor in real life with fiery language and death threats- and I mean thousands of people who attend the school or live in the area- I would imagine action would be taken that could potentially limit the amount of contact well-meaning people had with him. Perhaps some security comes around, or even more likely, he quits the job, which spoils it for the bunch. Subsequently, any action taken to secure this professor's safety says nothing about him being unwilling to defend his actual arguments.

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Why exactly did you ignore the rest of my analogy and subsequently the ending of the post before that on this tangent:

 

Because it's not relivant to this scenario and the hypothesis doesn't stand up to what would happen in reality?

 

If a professor at a uni was getting called names and abuse from students in his class... If that scenario were to actually ever happen. The uni would remove/expell the individuals doing that. They would not censor the entire class from legitimately challenging or criticising his views.

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But then the scenario is not equivalent to the situation we're discussing, because the Internet full of anonymous patrons who can say whatever they want with low risk of social or legal consequence- subsequently poisoning the well- is effectively not a classroom with a limited number of physically-present bodies who are thus more likely to yield to authority and common decency. As such, the analogies presented here about teachers and philosophers not censoring themselves, and using them to subsequently call Anita an intellectual coward, do not make a compelling argument.

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Because it's not relivant to this scenario and the hypothesis doesn't stand up to what would happen in reality?

 

If a professor at a uni was getting called names and abuse from students in his class... If that scenario were to actually ever happen. The uni would remove/expell the individuals doing that. They would not censor the entire class from legitimately challenging or criticising his views.

 

Depends on how big the class is and how many of them are being abusive, surely? :P

 

Also I doubt academics like University professors would discuss their ideas in a massive free-for-all like the Internet is. They debate in terms of published works, seminars, public speeches etc.

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But then the scenario is not equivalent to the situation we're discussing, because the Internet full of anonymous patrons who can say whatever they want with low risk of social or legal consequence- subsequently poisoning the well- is effectively not a classroom with a limited number of physically-present bodies who are thus more likely to yield to authority and common decency. As such, the analogies presented here about teachers and philosophers not censoring themselves, and using them to subsequently call Anita an intellectual coward, do not make a compelling argument.

 

Yes it does.

 

Anita has called herself a pop culture critic, she's also stated that she researches popular culture and the treatment/representation of women in the media and this case videogames. She's also paid to give talks and was paid to do this research and presentation as to what she says is the representation of women in videogames. According to some people, she's some kind of expert and someone who can give an insight into a movement and pop culture representations on a social and cultural level... I presume this is the case considering the ammount of Uni talks she's done in the US on the subject.

 

She has claimed to have done all this research and has all these viewpoints based on evidence she has gathered from a said media.

 

And you're not allowed to directly challenge her... because someone called her names... which by the way according to her is evidence that she's right, the representation of women in games is bad because people on youtube gave her abuse.

 

She claims to have an argument and claims to have done all this research to support it... so why can't you challenge her on it?

 

You're allowed to stand up in a lecture room and say "I think you're wrong" to a lecturer who you have paid to teach you, and then put forward an argument as to why.

 

But you're not allowed to thumbs up or thumbs down a video which does the same thing... Why?

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Copied straight from my blog

 

She’s a fucking idiot

She’s a fucking thief

and she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about

But the thing is right? Sending her death threats; not on. Saying she should get raped? Not on. Harassing her in any way; not on.

Like, there is sexism in video games and it IS something that should be spoken about and dealt with (though frankly, there is much more important things in the world to be tackling than our thousand dollar toys…like all the rapes and stuff like that) and she has every right to use the internet as a platform to talk about it.

Thing is right, if you just ignore her, she’ll go away. If Anita having her little show and scamming thousands of morons out of money really upsets you then DON’T. WATCH. IT. I don’t watch it, I get my rants about the game industry from the Jimquisition and the Game Overthinker. I’ve watched Tropes vs Women all of once and I didn’t like it. SO guess what? I’m never going to watch it again.

Regardless of what you think about Anita, she has every right to do what she’s doing and what she’s doing  cannot hurt you in any way so be adults and ignore her.

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Then I'd say you're completely wrong.

 

task was the following.

 

 

"I will make 5 videos exploring the representation of women in videogames and will use a wide variety of characters to support this claim"

 

She then gets abuse on her youtube comments...

 

... .. .... exactly what does that have to do with the subject of study?

 

"I apologize for all the hate speech, misogyny, racism, threats and ignorance that were left below over this 2 week period. The trolls only managed to prove to everyone that sexism in gaming is indeed a huge problem."

 

Why does it? Anyone care to offer an explanation? Especially when the first video uses examples from games which were made over 15 years before youtube entered popular culture?

 

Anita's argument and the justification is pretty much is based on a stereotype and preconcepted agenda. She's supporting her argument using crap that happened which doesn't relate to it. In fact had there been a football game and people started to chant 'Anita is a wanker' is she going to use that to say that's proof of sexism in videogames? Of course not... so exactly how is it proof of sexism in videogames being a huge problem when the comments are said on youtube?

 

She doesn't know the identity's of the people involved.

She doesn't know if they work in the games industry.

She doesn't know if they work in any entertainment industry.

She knows nothing about those people.

 

But thats enough to say 'Yes theres a huge problem.'

 

They're not related. The task was to look at the representation and perception of women in videogames... not to look at the reaction from youtube comments.

 

 

If the task had been "I will investigate the treatment of female gamers" then maybe there would be some link and justification. But that was not the task. The task was the perception and treatment of female characters in videogames.

 

So where does she get off trying to convince people that theres a link to the reaction she got and the content in the videogames itself?

 

But she's not. Not every single statement she makes is exclusively related to her Kickstarter project, and the video Pelly and I linked before covers a completely different matter entirely. 

 

She spoke out against the abuse she dealt with as a result of the Kickstarter project, but these statements were completely segregated from her actual videos. She asked for funding to create "5 videos exploring the representation of women in videogames and will use a wide variety of characters to support this claim".

the claims that she is a scam-artist completely false, as she is doing exactly what people donated money for her to do), and all other statements regarding the vile misogyny and abuse rampant in the gaming community and culture have been made through other avenues.

 

If you mean to tell me that the Cross Assault fiasco had nothing to do with video games, then I'll drop this argument entirely, as neither of our stances are going to change beyond that. But I will defend the claim that she is providing exactly what people paid for and is keeping the irrelevant criticisms out of the videos in question.

 

 

Comments/ratings have been disabled.

 

Thats not possible... Anita disabled all comments on her videos.

 

was a prominent figure in the video, her face is the focus of half the thumbnail, and most of the comments are focused on her.

 

Um...can I see links of evidence where Anita is being racist and justifying gender segregation? The latter I can see considering her one-sidedness at times, but the former sounds a bit bizzare to believe....

 

But if anything, that would pretty much be a nail to the coffin of what I (and maybe others) think of her. The video Hogfather posted made me do almost a complete 180 towards the Damsel in Distress video Anita posted, so this'll be interesting to see for myself.

 

Alright, if I may turn my attention to this video for a moment, since it seems to be causing a stir around the internet as well -

 

 

I appreciate that the video was made in earnest and that KiteTales doesn't have an agenda of her own here, but I also can't deny that she's... kind of missing the point; definitely in regards to her counterarguments about Peach and Zelda. In her defense of the characters, she turns to the games' universes and lore in order to back up her stance that they are in fact not defenseless damsels in distress. It's an argument that seems fine on paper, but ultimately doesn't hold any water in regards to the context at hand. 

 

While the games' lore and universe serve to add some extra depth to the experience, the most important perspective to take into account is that of the player him/herself. The nameless NPCs in Hylia or the Mushroom Kingdom may make a point of telling you how much they love and respect their princesses, but that does not change the fact that from the player's perspective, she is a defenseless girl in need of your help. 

 

Anita herself defends Zelda's portrayal to an extent, saying that in Ocarina of Time she was an extremely important guide for Link and that he certainly couldn't have saved Hylia without her. The criticism stems from the fact that it's literally only a matter of seconds before she gets kidnapped after she sheds her more masculine disguise.

 

Zelda is wise. She's the leader of the all-important sages. She's the main figurehead of the Kingdom of Hyrule.

 

... But to the player? She's a girl you need to rescue. 

 

Furthermore, KiteTales attempts to assert that the Mario spin-offs are just as relevant as the main games, using sales as an example of why this should be. This isn't an argument I can get behind, as the concept of the spin-off games mentioned specifically revolves around being detached from the main storyline presented in the games. Mario Kart Wii may have gotten higher sales than Super Mario Galaxy, but which of the two is the more prominent and iconic in the franchise's history?

 

She’s a fucking thief

 

Jesus tapdancing Christ... how does anyone actually think this even makes sense? She asked for money to make some videos, people gave her the money to make the videos, and now she's making the fucking videos.

 

She didn't hold anyone at gunpoint, demanding funding for her videos, nor did she not deliver on her promise.

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Imagine you paid a bricklayer to build you a wall. And he did put some bricks around your garden but didn't use cement to stick them together, what would you think he was? A thief and a grifter.

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She spoke out against the abuse she dealt with as a result of the Kickstarter project, but these statements were completely segregated from her actual videos. She asked for funding to create "5 videos exploring the representation of women in videogames and will use a wide variety of characters to support this claim".

the claims that she is a scam-artist completely false, as she is doing exactly what people donated money for her to do), and all other statements regarding the vile misogyny and abuse rampant in the gaming community and culture have been made through other avenues.

I'm breaking in to make this a point that I think others are trying to say:

 

Yeah, we get that she's asked for funding to create her videos, but it becomes sketchy when someone else does the same thing with absolutely no funding at all. If someone asks for 100 dollars to do something that someone else does for less or nothing at all, it can make someone suspicious towards the former person. Just figured I'd emphasize that.

 

Now, to back off to the sidelines and look for another place to jump in...

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Personally I find a problem with her locking the comments on that video. Sure, there would have been a torrent of "lol dumb whore lol" but who cares? Getting a whole bunch of offensive comments thrown at you isn't something to get bent out of shape over. Okay, yeah, people flooding her E-mail and PMs with that garbage isn't cool because that stuff is actually important. But other than that, she should deal with it like everyone else who I've seen has been in a similar situation dealt with it. And that's by not feeding into it or letting it affect them.

I mean, shit. MichealDragon800, even after about 5 or 6 freakin' YEARS, is STILL being pounded by relentless hatred everywhere he goes. But he still has comments enabled on his channel(s) AND on his videos. The reason for him getting slammed is not even close to being as important as the reason Anita is, so if he and many others can deal with this garbage without censoring it, she should be able to as well.

Edited by Red Cap-Blue Spikes
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Yes it does.

 

Anita has called herself a pop culture critic, she's also stated that she researches popular culture and the treatment/representation of women in the media and this case videogames. She's also paid to give talks and was paid to do this research and presentation as to what she says is the representation of women in videogames. According to some people, she's some kind of expert and someone who can give an insight into a movement and pop culture representations on a social and cultural level... I presume this is the case considering the ammount of Uni talks she's done in the US on the subject.

 

She has claimed to have done all this research and has all these viewpoints based on evidence she has gathered from a said media.

 

And you're not allowed to directly challenge her... because someone called her names... which by the way according to her is evidence that she's right, the representation of women in games is bad because people on youtube gave her abuse.

 

She claims to have an argument and claims to have done all this research to support it... so why can't you challenge her on it?

 

You're allowed to stand up in a lecture room and say "I think you're wrong" to a lecturer who you have paid to teach you, and then put forward an argument as to why.

 

But you're not allowed to thumbs up or thumbs down a video which does the same thing... Why?

 

 

I'm not sure how any of this is a rebuttal instead of merely a reiteration of your argument.

 

It's not just "someone" harassing her; it's hundreds if not thousands of people all throughout the web who have constantly harassed and threatened this woman. And you can't say it's not going on now, despite her locking things down, as we've already had people in this thread say she actually deserves such abuse for her viewpoints. Furthermore, you've failed to demonstrate how this kind of widespread Internet harassment is directly equivalent to "someone," who I'm assuming is merely a single douchebag, acting out in a classroom towards a professor who can then enact consequences and, with the use of this kind of authority, can more easily ensure it doesn't happen again because most people easily defer to social graces and customs when they are in the physical presence of someone, such as not threatening a teacher with fatal rape.

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Er...but I think it should be a major point to consider how the internet can easily ruin your life if you manage to piss off a large group of people via harassment.

 

...kinda like this tug-of-war that Anita has going for hers.

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Um...can I see links of evidence where Anita is being racist and justifying gender segregation? The latter I can see considering her one-sidedness at times, but the former sounds a bit bizzare to believe....

 

But if anything, that would pretty much be a nail to the coffin of what I (and maybe others) think of her. The video Hogfather posted made me do almost a complete 180 towards the Damsel in Distress video Anita posted, so this'll be interesting to see for myself.

 

The video is here Chaos:

 

Re-Upload by someone else I believe she deleted it off her youtube page.sleep.png

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The video is here Chaos:

 

Re-Upload by someone else I believe she deleted it off her youtube page.sleep.png

A bit of a minor one, but I find it funny she fails to consider how in America women tend to, I dunno fight back when men attempt to grope them unless the man goes far enough to overpower her and rape her? We're a lot more open and loud compared to the silent and reserved Japan.

 

Also, the annotations were kinda hilarious. 

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... What was racist or particularly inflammatory about that video? She discussed her views about a racy Japanese ad campaign for Bayonetta, talked about the sexual harassment statistics in Japan, and then used that as a springboard to make an ironic comparison about the state of things in Japan.... What's so bad about that, and why would she mention America in such a context?

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Um...can I see links of evidence where Anita is being racist and justifying gender segregation? The latter I can see considering her one-sidedness at times, but the former sounds a bit bizzare to believe....

 

But if anything, that would pretty much be a nail to the coffin of what I (and maybe others) think of her. The video Hogfather posted made me do almost a complete 180 towards the Damsel in Distress video Anita posted, so this'll be interesting to see for myself.

She deleted the video, but in the grand old age of the internet, someone resurfaced it.

And since this isn't a Anita Sarkeesian uploaded video, the comments are not disabled. Oh and look at the discussion. Intelligent discussion! By gods!

 

She is running away from accountability. Enough said.

Edited by turbojet
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I think part of the point Hogfather is trying to make can simply be summed up with the internet harassment not being something directly related to the people who work in games and/or the gaming medium as a whole and thus it shouldn't be used as evidence towards the sexism in gaming argument. However it is still extremely disgusting and those people are in the wrong for all the threats and abuse they gave her. What their comments do instead highlights a totally different problem relating to internet anonymity and the ability the internet has to round up all the assholes who would be assholes over any given issue just because they can and then unleashing them on someone. It is in no way however directly something you can factually link to her argument of sexism in games because the identities of the people behind it all are unknown. Again it doesn't make it less right but I can see where he is coming from in that regard. People get abuse all the time on the internet and it is something that really needs to stop, but as long as being people feel they are anonymous and can get away with it it will always be there and thus to me it isn't a gaming related problem.

On the same point, I see why she disabled her comments and ratings just for the fact that on youtube itself she has suffered that kind of abuse and I do not blame her for taking the power to criticize and talk about it on the page itself. I can see, and agree, with the people supporting her in taking that ability away because she really doesn't need that. Nobody does. The criticism and the way we can talk about it can happen no matter where it is on the internet because we can still share the video and talk about it in other places in more detail. There is still criticism of her views and thoughts going on throughout the internet as it is - so it isn't like the flow of discussion was stripped away because the page for the video itself won't allow it. I dunno, to me it doesn't take away from the intelligence of her video at all.

 

I also do not necessarily think she is a thief because she only had asked for the 6k initially. She didn't expect to get the full amount that she managed to get, but such is the nature of kickstarter. Do I think the production values and the they could be more than a very basic level of research presented? Yeah of course - that is a lot of extra dough to really pump of the quality of the thing. Do I also think that the schedule of the release of these videos is horrendous considering how simple they are in their nature that people are doing videos on the same level for free? Yeah - of course I do! I still don't have a solid opinion on the content itself as for me it is still to early for me to really be on board or not...but what she posted met the basic criteria of what the kickstarter set out to do. However the kickstarter won't be totally fulfilled until she releases all five videos, but as long as she goes through with that in the end I do not think she has swindled anyone out of their money.

Again though...I do think though that her direction of the anonymous internet hate should be directed at the actual problem and not video games, as like I said I do feel it is an entirely separate issue. Instead of doing talks and placing those comments as examples towards why videogames contain sexism - why not instead use that topic to enlighten people on the fact that the anonymity brings out the racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic etc. people that SOCIETY AS A WHOLE contains. It is an internet-wide problem and it'd be cool to see effort being placed to highlight those issues instead of pinning the blame on something unrelated. That's just my two cents again on that matter though.

 

tl;dr: Her abuse was not cool, I don't think she is a thief and her youtube comments being off doesn't bother me but I partially agree that the abuse she got is not evidence of sexism in videogames. I also apologize if some of this is incoherent as I am really sick and been poppin' SICK MEDZZZ.

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... What was racist or particularly inflammatory about that video? She discussed her views about a racy Japanese ad campaign for Bayonetta, talked about the sexual harassment statistics in Japan, and then used that as a springboard to make an ironic comparison about the state of things in Japan.... What's so bad about that, and why would she mention America in such a context?

She justified segregation! REALLY?

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She deleted the video, but in the grand old age of the internet, someone resurfaced it.

And since this isn't a Anita Sarkeesian uploaded video, the comments are not disabled. Oh and look at the discussion. Intelligent discussion! By gods!

 

She is running away from accountability. Enough said.

I have to be honest, aside from the tangent she went onto about the harassment statistics in Japan and their solution compared to America, I'm not seeing anything racist about it and only a small amount of advocating for gender segregation.

 

Now unless you can enlighten me on what it is I'm not seeing beneath the surface....

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She justified segregation! REALLY?

 

She justified the idea of gender-based passenger cars on subways as a way to curb sexual harassment, which I don't see anything to get that outraged about unless you believe all facilities that have gender separation like bathrooms and locker rooms are horrible (and that's an interesting argument for another time, especially in the context of transgender individuals).

 

Not only do I not see anything to get up in arms about to the extent that you are, but this doesn't answer my question on how the video was racist or how the overall point she was making would necessitate extensive reporting about America.

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She justified the idea of gender-based passenger cars on subways as a way to curb sexual harassment, which I don't see anything to get that outraged about unless you believe all facilities that have gender separation like bathrooms and locker rooms are horrible (and that's an interesting argument for another time, especially in the context of transgender individuals).

 

Not only do I not see anything to get up in arms about to the extent that you are, but this doesn't answer my question on how the video was racist or how the overall point she was making would necessitate extensive reporting about America.

Rosa Parks is rolling in her grave. 

 

And that was a response to a video that she advocates gender segregation. The racist part has to do with her lack of perspective in regards of cultural relativity. Again, back to my paper I go.

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Rosa Parks is rolling in her grave. 

 

And that was a response to a video that she advocates gender segregation. The racist part has to do with her lack of perspective in regards of cultural relativity. Again, back to my paper I go.

In other words, ethnocentrism...it makes sense now.

 

But i'd say it's due to ignorance before blanketing it with the term "racist".

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Rosa Parks is rolling in her grave. 

 

And that was a response to a video that she advocates gender segregation. The racist part has to do with her lack of perspective in regards of cultural relativity. Again, back to my paper I go.

 

Can you explain why this particular bit of gender segregation versus others in society is a net negative for society? And how do discrepancies in cultural relativity concerning her reporting on the sexual harassment statistics in Japan translate into the idea that she is knowingly racist towards the Japanese? I would much rather an honest conversation with you rather than you making eye-roll worthy remarks about what dead figures would think of me and you looking down your nose at me and others in general. If you're such an expert on these issues, I would much rather education than your usual flippancy.
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Can you explain why this particular bit of gender segregation versus others in society is a net negative for society? 

I'd say it's for similar reasons of racial segregation, but more misguided in its well being than it is implying inferiority.

 

By having women only sections of the train, you're still putting the responsibility and fault of the problem on it being the women rather than preventing the men from harassing them to begin with. Basically like telling a gay to stop being gay and everything will be alright, by contrast; they don't have to stop being gay or be required to be somewhere else on the train (although this part is recommended to avoid conflict), because if someone is harassing you for who you are it is that person, and not the person being harassed, who is at fault.

 

Part of Japanese culture is that women aren't allowed to say anything or retaliate against sexual harassment like that vocally, despite what you may see in anime, and that men can do as they please unless the woman's boyfriend is there to confront the person. That's a stark contrast in the US where people in general and regardless of gender are suppose to keep their hands to themselves unless given permission.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc
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Can you explain why this particular bit of gender segregation versus others in society is a net negative for society? And how do discrepancies in cultural relativity concerning her reporting on the sexual harassment statistics in Japan translate into the idea that she is knowingly racist towards the Japanese? I would much rather an honest conversation with you rather than you making eye-roll worthy remarks about what dead figures would think of me and you looking down your nose at me and others in general. If you're such an expert on these issues, I would much rather education than your usual flippancy.

My usual flippancy?

First off, I could and have said that I will make a full intelligent argument when I'm through with my paper. Second, check the statistics and then realize that towards the end she justifies gender segregation in America in regards of public transportation. 

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