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SuperStingray

Dear Internet: Grow Up

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The whole 'it's not the same!'

 

Yeah right, of course not, being called a 'faggot' getting abuse on a sexual level, a mental level, a race level, heck I've even had a could based on the fact I am a man.

 

How is ANY of that any less offensive, any less hurtful, less threattening or any... less.

Because you aren't gay? Because, at the end of the day, you can go to bed comfortable that your sexuality is not subject to endless political and moral debate, and that you won't be disowned by your family or harassed or thought of as less by society in general? It's the same reason I don't take personal offense to someone calling me a stinky stupid face, because I know I'm obviously am not one, so why should I be hurt? You don't see anyone criticising you as "hetero"; your identity is not considered to be wrong, dirty or inferior, there's no real-life reflection to the insult.

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@Discoid

All I was saying is that it's weird that instead of just putting up some form of donation pool or whatever, she makes it into a full Kickstarter project with a goal and everything. It just feels like begging to me.

And yes, I think that about every Kickstarter/Crowdfunded documentary project. You shouldn't need huge amounts of money for something so simple.

Edited by Red Cap-Blue Spikes

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But why does she need twenty fucking thousand dollars to do something I could do by typing some things into Google and reading a few articles? Seriously, I don't know why all these gaming related Kickstarter documentary projects keep coming up with these girls needing ridiculous amounts of money to do it. I'm sure everyone who cares about it and would be willing to share their stories would help out anyways.

She didn't really ask for $20,000, tho. She asked for a lot less and got a whole lot more than expected.

 

Personally, I couldn't really care all that much about her Kickstarter as I never gave her any of my money. Although the same can't always be said of her analysis if she comes off as one-sided as a result.

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I'm talking about that GTFO project Hogfather posted, CSS. Not about Anita.

But I thought that was ridiculous too.

Edited by Red Cap-Blue Spikes

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As far as it's not the same....if you don't accept that then you don't' accept it, but there's quite a lot of people in the world that do.

 

But even if you want to try and put internet abuse on a level field (which I personally don't buy) there is still research that shows women get harassed more than men do online ....so it seems a valid problem to address regardless.

 

I do agree that from some standpoints kickstarter in general from a traditional method of economic examination shows that initial investment and return for a variety of projects is skewed.....But at the same time kickstarter is hardly a traditional investment platform so analyzing it the same way seems incorrect. 

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Perhaps when the day comes that I see male, straight gamers harassed for doing the simple act of playing a game, for their gender and sexuality, in an industry that caters for male, straight gamers, will I accept that male gamers have it anywhere near as bad as women.

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Don't know why, but something about the stupidity of "You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that." in one of the links makes me want to literally cave in the skull of whoever said that. Yeah, I know violence doesn't solve everything and it wouldn't help anyone's case, but...come on, seriously? Gamer's can be spoiled, toxic, annoying as fuck shitheads with no amount of common courtesy and subject to being fuckwads online, but they're not that one-sided to be unable to enjoy such diversity. I mean, fuck, Samus Aran is one of the biggest stars in gaming for christs sake...

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SPOILER ALERT!

 
Ok for those who care, the second part of tropes vs women went online... and was subsequently pulled due to it breaking youtube TOS.

First of all, if it gets re-uploaded and you decide to watch it. 2 things.

1: It's as ridiculous as expected.

2: Anita decided not to give any spoiler warnings in the video. There are tons of spoilers to lots of games, in some cases, entire endings are spoilt, in others, major plot twists.

So if you do not care about the plots in any of these games.... (spoiler as the list is huge)


· Bionic Commando (2009)
· Borderlands 2 (2012)
· Breath of Fire IV (2000)
· Castlevania: The Dracula X Chronicles (2007)
· Castlevania: Lament of Innocence (2003)
· Castlevania: Lords of Shadow (2010)
· Dante's Inferno (2010)
· The Darkness II (2012)
· Dead Space (2008)
· Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs The Soulless Army (2006)
· Double Dragon Neon (2012)
· Gears of War 2 (2008)
· God of War: Ghost of Sparta (2010)
· The Godfather: The Game (2006)
· Grand Theft Auto III (2001)
· Hotline Miami (2012)
· Ico (2001)
· Infamous (2009)
· Inversion (2012)
· Kane & Lunch: Dead Men (2007)
· The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
· MediEvil 2 (2000)
· Ninja Gaiden 3 (2010)
· Pandora's Tower (2011)
· Prey (2006)
· Resident Evil 5 (2009)
· Shadows of the Damned (2011)
· Tenchu: Shadow Assassins (2009)



By all means watch it, otherwise, avoid the video. If you've never played ICO and want to, definately avoid this video.

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Man, my eyes had an orgasm reading Turbojet's post.

 

However, I wanted to make some addition inputs to understand things much deeper.

Capitalism is sexist...wait what?

I get in so many arguments about this type of feminism that it is crazy. Here is the truth of why these games are made

  1. These games are not made to keep feminists happy
  2. These games are not made to subjugate women
  3. These games were designed to be fun to play and,most importantly, make a profit for the designer

Well to be fair, women make up 47% of the gaming market if that link is to be believed, although granted that was back in 2011 so who knows how that statistic has changed. And given how games with female leads tend to not have as much markety support as a male leads, which leads to the sulf-fullfilling prophecy of producers and publishers not willing to take risks in making a female lead (never mind how mismanaged things can be as far as producing AAA games go), it could be argued that there is some sexism as far as games go.

 

But then you brought up how Uncharted 3, and how the latest Tomb Raider game only made 1/3rd of the profits by comparison. So maybe there is something else here at play.

 

However, this being noted that we're talking about Anita's demand for her brand of a "pro-feminist" game. And if what you said about Anita is to be considered, the Tomb Raider reboot is completely irrelevant as an example as far as her flavor of feminism goes.

 

Also worth noting that there are different interests in gaming as far as the genders go, and considering how much more money men are willing to throw at games than women are, that also contributes to the profit and tastes that the gaming industry is catering to. 

 

I have a few research papers detailing these differences, such as how women are more into the relationships between characters and less of the good-and-evil differences like that which men are usually into, and I'll have to scour for the links to show them.

 

EDIT: FUCKING HELL! One of those research papers was taken down...anyone want me to send it to them?

 

Here's what I was talking about from "Girls and Gaming: A Summary of the Research With Implications For Practice" by Denise Agosto:

 

The studies discussed above indicate that girls favor the following characteristics in computer game content:
  •   Games that eschew the conflict between good and evil;
  •   Games that center on storylines and character development;
  •   Games that are not competitive in nature;
  •   Games that use real-life locales;
  •   Games that feature strong female characters who are in charge of decisions and actions;
  •   Games that enable users to play the role of main character, either through self-identification or through the power to make decisions;
  •   Games that focus on human relationships;
  •   Games with some educational value, as opposed to those designed purely for entertainment;
  •   Games containing nonviolent action;
  •   Games that reflect girls' common play patterns.

 

 

 

Another instance of Anita seeming trying to prove her thesis is how she handles Princess Peach. She constantly keeps mentioning that Princess Peach is a symbol of objectification because she had to be rescued in 13 of her 14 "core" games or games that Peach has been captured. She uses this as definitive proof to show that Peach has been delegated to the role of Distressed Damsel. However, Peach has in 46 games as a playable character and even went on to save Mario in one instance. Anita just ignores those other games because they would throw her analysis off. This is unacceptable. I mean come on? 46 to 14. By what analysis differentiates a core game versus a spin-off? Whether there is platforming? It's single player? If it is canon? Sure, there are like 9 Mario Party games, but again, taking them out because you say so is absurd because the character has been substantially more games where she isn't a damsel which is something because she isn't the protagonist or the hero of the franchise.

I don't know how I could challenge making exceptions like that as far as core games and spin-offs go, because it doesn't entirely ring right with me either now that I looked back on it. I happened to enjoy the RPGs like the Paper Mario series for example, where even when she gets kidnapped, she was gathering intel that, had she not given it, would have made Mario's quest to rescue her even harder if not downright impossible. Then she's completely playable early on in Super Paper Mario, and she wasn't even the only one captured this time around as Bowser (although he enjoyed it briefly), his minions, and Luigi ended up captured and enslaved during the game. In fact, Peach was the one who escaped the worst of the fates the other captured and brainwashed characters went through.

 

However, I do think that it should be noted how much of a greater value people put on the "core" games than they do spin-off titles as far as how characters go. I'd say that's probably another factor in not including them, but then I keep reminding myself that Mario isn't like Sonic and there's not that big a sense of a progression of time as far as the titles go since that seems mostly irrelevant to the franchise.

 

She shows an inability to think outside of gender terms as if that is the only thing that defines people.

Wait...what?!

 

Shouldn't that actually disqualify her and anyone else who does something like that from even calling themselves a feminist somewhat? I know there are some forms of it that seek to challenge, transcend, or even destroy those definitions, but if you show an inability to think outside of them? I dunno...

 

Many people are unaware that there is a huge divide in feminism and the division has been labeled as the feminist sex wars which encompasses the liberal feminist camp. 

You know, if this was made more aware, we might either have an even bigger division as that ends up playing a major part in politics, or people would look at feminism in a whole new light than the generalizations thrown at it.

 

Of course, given how there's not one single school of feminist thought, it could be both that happens.

 

Come to think of it, just WHY are people so unaware of that divide? You'd think that people could look into the movement and see that division instead of grouping every feminist as the same. And hell, some even recognize the differences and just don't give a fuck, which is just fucking backwards and would work against you if that group of feminists actually share more similarities with you ideology than the other group of feminist who they're against.

 

Seriously, what's up with that? Either some groups are hiding the Feminist Sex Wars or people just aren't interested in looking into the movement, because knowing this would definitely help some things out in the long run.

Troll-baiters are worse than trolls

One could definitely argue either that or that they are the same.

 

However, when troll-baiters bait the trolls, exactly who's ass are people more likely to call out?

 

Were it not for Anita being one-sided in her views, she'd probably not even get this level of criticism against her, and the claim that she is troll-baiting or any variation there of would likely have never gotten any kind of equivocal backlash. Then again, she might have known that, and may have been why she did it at all.

 

Granted, you're likely aware of these details that I'm bringing forth, but I feel a need to call some of these into question or add something to them. Considering that it really doesn't require much, if ANY, funding at all for anyone to do research like this, it's really questionable as to why she would need a kick-started.

 

This is probably me just playing on the safe-side tho, since I'm generally going by most of your words (which I happen to agree with, when you put them that way).

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc

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Videos back up

 

Worth waiting two months for?

 

Hard to state an opinion on this one as I haven't played a lot of these games but so far it seems to have much of the same problems as the first one. She basically rattles of a list of games with the trope and says they're bad without delving too much into the context of the game.

 

Also her defininition of modern games seems a bit off to me, some of these games came out in 2000.

Edited by Jake Bird

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She brought up the GTA III Ending? Clearly that was a joke if she played the game she would know this. Jesus I can't watch some of this. sleep.png

 

 

She obviously has some trouble recognising jokes, as evidenced by using that wreck-it ralph clip. It's funny because it's a woman losing a man?.....um....I thought it was the machine gun in the wedding dress and the over the top, crappy backstory that was meant to be funny....guess I got it wrong...

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Also if she had played the game she would notice everybody in a GTA game is a stereotype as the game has a large amount of satire.

 

Also don't get me started on her comments about Max Payne.sleep.png

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I don't get it, whats wrong with the damsel in distress motif? The games that use it don't make the women look bad but just use them as plot devices to progress the plot or set up the game.  That being said, that's not a huge deal because the games that use the motif are just paying homage to the past (notably indie games) and since many games that use the trope just to set up gameplay in a, well gameplay focused game, then its not wrong or offensive to use the trope.

 

If anything, she should be upset with games that shamelessly and blaintly use women as sex symbols to sell games; pre-reboot Tomb Rader, Ninja Gaden, Dead or Alive, X-Blades, and (sadly :() Dragons Crown are games with solid/great gameplay that just use sex to try to pull people into the games, and the stories in said games don't paint an empowering image of women in general (not image of them being weak, as Dragons Crown, Tomb Rader, Ninja Gaden and Dead or Alive prove over wise with the women being very strong and powerful, but they aren't treated with much respect with there outrageous designs).

 

Game designers just need to be more tasteful when it comes to implementing females into games and even if they do use there sex appeal, they should do it right as games like Bayonetta prove.  And I think were getting there with gaming as Bioshock Infinite, Tomb Rader, and The Last of Us all have strong female characters that help the protagonist (or are the protagonist in the case of Tomb Rader) and not only are they realistically designed, but they are human characters who go through human experiences and struggles that make them better characters. 

 

She should be bashing on the more modern games rather than the past as they had very little story and there "save the princess" motif was just there to move the gameplay, not make women look weak.  And nice job singling Nintendo out with Zelda/Mario, as Nintendo games have the most deep stories in gaming wink.png .

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I don't get it, whats wrong with the damsel in distress motif? The games that use it don't make the women look bad but just use them as plot devices to progress the plot or set up the game.

Yeah but, that's kind of the problem? That a damsel in distress is usually less of a character/person, and more of a thing used to motivate other characters. And I would think it's pretty shitty to grow up as a girl that likes video games and see female characters almost exclusively as prizes for male heroes.

That being said, that's not a huge deal because the games that use the motif are just paying homage to the past

"Paying homage to the past" is not a good excuse for doing something shitty.

and since many games that use the trope just to set up gameplay in a, well gameplay focused game

Can they not set up the gameplay in some other way?

If anything, she should be upset with games that shamelessly and blaintly use women as sex symbols to sell games

It's possible for someone to be bothered by more than one thing.

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I don't get it, whats wrong with the damsel in distress motif? The games that use it don't make the women look bad but just use them as plot devices to progress the plot or set up the game.

 

That is pretty bad in itself; with them being plot devices, they tend to lack agency in what little actions they actually do.

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I don't get it, whats wrong with the damsel in distress motif? The games that use it don't make the women look bad but just use them as plot devices to progress the plot or set up the game.  That being said, that's not a huge deal because the games that use the motif are just paying homage to the past (notably indie games) and since many games that use the trope just to set up gameplay in a, well gameplay focused game, then its not wrong or offensive to use the trope.

 

If anything, she should be upset with games that shamelessly and blaintly use women as sex symbols to sell games; pre-reboot Tomb Rader, Ninja Gaden, Dead or Alive, X-Blades, and (sadly sad.png) Dragons Crown are games with solid/great gameplay that just use sex to try to pull people into the games, and the stories in said games don't paint an empowering image of women in general (not image of them being weak, as Dragons Crown, Tomb Rader, Ninja Gaden and Dead or Alive prove over wise with the women being very strong and powerful, but they aren't treated with much respect with there outrageous designs).

 

Game designers just need to be more tasteful when it comes to implementing females into games and even if they do use there sex appeal, they should do it right as games like Bayonetta prove.  And I think were getting there with gaming as Bioshock Infinite, Tomb Rader, and The Last of Us all have strong female characters that help the protagonist (or are the protagonist in the case of Tomb Rader) and not only are they realistically designed, but they are human characters who go through human experiences and struggles that make them better characters. 

 

She should be bashing on the more modern games rather than the past as they had very little story and there "save the princess" motif was just there to move the gameplay, not make women look weak.  And nice job singling Nintendo out with Zelda/Mario, as Nintendo games have the most deep stories in gaming wink.png .

 

The problem with the damsel in distress is exactly what you said. It treats the woman as an object, the prize. Older games were limited in their ability to tell a story so mostly used a default story everybody understands (the damsel in distress). It's fine for modern games to pay homage to older games and it's ok to use the damsel in distress every now and then, still using it as a default plot device is pretty poor story telling in an era where more effort and complex storytelling is possible.

 

As for her being concerned about the blatant sexualisation of female characters, remember this is only part three in a....how many is it now? 13 or something...part series. She'll get to that....in a few years time....

 

The main problem with this video is that, her arguments on damsels in distress aren't based on facts but on opinions. She thinks the DID trope shows characters like Zelda or Peach to be weak, but there's countless videos in response that argue that it's quite the opposite.

 

In this video, she's talking about dudes in distress and says they're not sexist, but her argument essentially boils down to, "it's sexist if it's a woman and not sexist if it's a man because.....I don't think it is" yet she passes it off as fact.

 

She's also neglected to mention games where you play as a woman trying to rescue a damsel in distress, like her beloved Mirror's Edge, if it's sexist for a man to go out and rescue a DID, is it sexist if a woman does the same?

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I don't think most companies have an agenda besides money. They make what they presume will sell... money trumps any ideology. Just ask a politician.

I'm guessing there's poor communication that gamers, increasingly not a group skewed towards males, don't have an issue with female leads or females being beyond the damsel in distress role. I see how many men enjoy Bayonetta (no jokes please) and the like, and can see the protagonist's sex seems to be the last thing on a gamer's mind so much as graphics, story or gameplay. Most people seem to care more about a game being fun than exactly how you go about that. I mean heck, my favorite character to play as in Birth by Sleep is Aqua, and I have no interest in women.

As was mentioned prior, that games with female leads tend to sell less creates a self-reinforcing prophecy; it might have just been a fluke or coincidence, but the industry sees that as the consumers not desiring another female lead and so becomes reluctant to use one. Prices and sales are how everyone in a market communicates, after all.

As for the users and not the company side of things... yes it would be nice if they learned to stop being dicks. That's unlikely to happen though, sadly.

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Guess I didn't realize the depth of the damsel in distress motif has, so sorry for my ignorance of the matter :(

 

You guy's are all right; its messed up that women in that motif are more or less "prizes" for the heroes in the end and even if the games that used the motif are either from a time that tech couldn't tell deep stories or if there used for nostalgic purposes, its still wrong.

 

I never said the role was morally right, I just thought that the role the motif it has in games was harmless if the game has little to no story, but I guess I just wasn't fully thinking when I came to that thought.

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