Dear Internet: Grow Up

[Chaos Warp]

Eh, this might piss people off, but as long as nothing's incredibly sexist, I just enjoy my games and don't think about this stuff. I just have fun, you know? I suppose it's an issue that exists, but I don't particularly care about it. 

[Tani Coyote]

Eh, this might piss people off, but as long as nothing's incredibly sexist, I just enjoy my games and don't think about this stuff. I just have fun, you know? I suppose it's an issue that exists, but I don't particularly care about it.

I don't see why a person would get angry at this. To an extent this strikes me as like violence in video games - people focus so much on it it takes away from the real life variation on the issue. There's very real gang violence and very real sexual discrimination, and it'd be a better use of time and resources to tackle these.

Never mind resolving sexual discrimination in real life would eventually lessen sexual discrimination in game design. Women would enjoy equal wages and education, which would gradually allow them to become on par with men in game design, not to mention in ability to consume games. Producers follow the market, and when it becomes clear that women have a lot of clout you bet they'd change their tune.

It's kind of ironic, but nothing defeats discrimination quite as well as greed.

[Diogenes]

I don't see why a person would get angry at this. To an extent this strikes me as like violence in video games - people focus so much on it it takes away from the real life variation on the issue. There's very real gang violence and very real sexual discrimination, and it'd be a better use of time and resources to tackle these.

Personally I think the best way to handle problems like this is to attack them at multiple levels. I think they have a tendency to self-reinforce, as people absorb and internalize these shitty ideas as normal and then end up perpetuating them. So if you get developers to be less shitty about female characters, and fewer gamers being shitty to actual women, we end up being stronger to fight the rest of the problem.

[SuperStingray]

A big part of could be that there's a lot of sexism in the industry itself.  STEM fields are relatively underpopulated by women, and those that do take them up are often alienated by the lack of female peers and that harassment happens quite frequently.  As a result, there is a distinct lack a woman's touch in too many games.

[Dr. Mechano]

First off, I'd totally play that mock-up game at the end of the video.

 

Second, I've really enjoyed FF's work. As an aspiring writer, I feel I've gotten a lot insight from them. As both a gamer and as someone who wants to see more progressive depictions of women in media (and indeed, more progression toward equality in society at large), I've really loved these videos and their justified complaints about the industry.

 

I think the latest video really made a great point; Women being captured or detained is not in and of itself the problem. That can be pulled off without resorting to the damsel-in-distress trope, as in the example provided from Beyond Good and Evil. The problem occurs when the woman's sole (or nearly sole) purpose is to be captured and rescued, wherein she's treated more like an object or goal than a true character in her own right.

[Tani Coyote]

We've established that given the large female gamer community, there's a considerable disconnect between what the market wants and what developers feel it does.

However, I'm going to pose a more radical possibility as well.

...maybe the female gaming community doesn't care that much about the subject?

I'm gay and don't take offense at homophobic remarks (I just consider them words of no value at this point), so I'm often puzzled at the crusade by heterosexuals against such words. Maybe female gamers don't pay that much mind to their portrayal in the media, and are just like every other gamer in caring more about the plot or gameplay than any underlying social implications? It's in line with how inclusion of homosexual couplings may cause some praise or uproar by certain segments, but the vast bulk of players just have a "meh" response to it, being indifferent; they just want to play a game.

This could be one of those cases of wanting to help a group when the group doesn't really feel that strongly about it (I'm looking through the pages, and the internet bias aside, it looks like there's a lot more men who care about this subject than women). To give an example, in GTA IV there's a mission where you kill a gay person. Suddenly all these LGBT groups were up in arms over it for "promoting violence against homosexuals," and I was just, "...really?"

Sometimes there are social issues that are given more weight than they should be, I suppose.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

A big part of could be that there's a lot of sexism in the industry itself.  STEM fields are relatively underpopulated by women, and those that do take them up are often alienated by the lack of female peers and that harassment happens quite frequently.  As a result, there is a distinct lack a woman's touch in too many games.

Chalk that up to cultural stigma as well. STEM fields are treated as masculine compared to those of the arts like Literature which are often (but not always) treated as more feminine depending on something like the genre. And because of that view, that these places are more men's domain, it only further makes women less interested in getting into the fields as they don't see it as for them.

 

However, I'm going to pose a more radical possibility as well.

...maybe the female gaming community doesn't care that much about the subject?

I wouldn't say that considering how these things bring a firestorm of criticism on the subject from all sides. Maybe some don't care, but this is just one attitude over myriads of others.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Red Cap]

I wouldn't say that considering how these things bring a firestorm of criticism on the subject from all sides. Maybe some don't care, but this is just one attitude over myriads of others.

I dunno. Most girls I know aren't even bothered by things like DOA or other "fanservice"-y games. But, most people I know just don't think it's worth it to get mad about a game. Even if it's as offensive as that one game where every black person makes monkey noises.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I dunno. Most girls I know aren't even bothered by things like DOA or other "fanservice"-y games. But, most people I know just don't think it's worth it to get mad about a game. Even if it's as offensive as that one game where every black person makes monkey noises.

And the girls and people you know represent all the other people who actually are bothered by it?

 

This goes far beyond people you know, dude.

[Red Cap]

And the girls and people you know represent all the other people who actually are bothered by it?
 
This goes far beyond people you know, dude.

I know that, I was merely saying that I don't know if that's wrong or not. Even when there's a big stink about some game being sexist, I've never seen it get so huge that almost every was talking about it at that time. Unlike when violent video games (Like GTA) make headlines on big news channels and stuff.

I'm tired so I'm not sure if I'm wording my post right but whatever. Just throwing my 2 cents in.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Who would like to see evidence to suggest she hasn't played the games/done any research?

 

You know all those clips from the games, the ones in her videos, the clips that according to her kickstarter were part of the reason for needing all that money? The extensive research? You know, the material she was going to study in order to find her conclusions?

 

Yeah... they're all stolen from other youtube videos.

 

Remember when I said she was a con artist and some people said there was no evidence to support that?

 

So... what exactly as she researching if she couldn't even use her own research/fottage in her own videos?

[RK64]

Who would like to see evidence to suggest she hasn't played the games/done any research?

 

You know all those clips from the games, the ones in her videos, the clips that according to her kickstarter were part of the reason for needing all that money? The extensive research? You know, the material she was going to study in order to find her conclusions?

 

Yeah... they're all stolen from other youtube videos.

 

Remember when I said she was a con artist and some people said there was no evidence to support that?

 

So... what exactly as she researching if she couldn't even use her own research/fottage in her own videos?

 

...That's just messed up

 

I mean, if she's not skilled enough to play the games or that she needed the video footage for further studying, then she should have ask the people who made the videos she wanted to use if she could use them.  What she did was strate up steeling other people works, and that's just messed up. 

 

I just hope that she talked to the LP'ers about this issue now and do something to make up for stealing there work or otherwise she could be in a lot of trouble for this, even to the point were she could be banned from YouTube.

 

[The Kid]

I don't think it's a big deal that she is using other videos instead of playing them all herself. I mean, it doesn't matter considering it is going to be mostly the same footage regardless.

 

The problem is that she didn't get any permission. Of course one could argue it is a gray area since none of the commentary (usually the main draw of Let's Plays) is used, just the game footage.

[turbojet]

I don't think it's a big deal that she is using other videos instead of playing them all herself. I mean, it doesn't matter considering it is going to be mostly the same footage regardless.

 

The problem is that she didn't get any permission. Of course one could argue it is a gray area since none of the commentary (usually the main draw of Let's Plays) is used, just the game footage.

She is using clips without getting the proper context of the game and therefore undermining the aspect of the purpose of a game: Play it. Not to mention, the money that she was given was supposed to buy and play these games. If she isn't doing the work to actually play these games, then all of her research is invalid. Although in spite of all of this, her research would be invalid as she uses confirmation bias.

[The Kid]

She is using clips without getting the proper context of the game and therefore undermining the aspect of the purpose of a game: Play it. Not to mention, the money that she was given was supposed to buy and play these games. If she isn't doing the work to actually play these games, then all of her research is invalid. Although in spite of all of this, her research would be invalid as she uses confirmation bias.

 

I don't know if taking clips means she doesn't get the context of a game. She could have played the game or watched a playthrough and then used a clip from Youtube when making the video. Just because she isn't using her own playthrough doesn't mean she didn't research the game. When I make a powerpoint presentation I take clips or pictures from other places to help get my point across, but it doesn't mean I didn't do the research. The problem here is giving proper credit.

[RK64]

I don't know if taking clips means she doesn't get the context of a game. She could have played the game or watched a playthrough and then used a clip from Youtube when making the video. Just because she isn't using her own playthrough doesn't mean she didn't research the game. When I make a powerpoint presentation I take clips or pictures from other places to help get my point across, but it doesn't mean I didn't do the research. The problem here is giving proper credit.

 

That problem shouldn't even be the case to begin with; if you are borrowing others work, its the morally right thing to let them know what your doing with it.  The fact that she is borrowing these videos also brings up a very strong point; if she even played the games or not.  Yes, she is studying the videos to get the messaging behind the games, but that being said, video games are an interactive medium and to get the clearest picture of a game, you have to play it yourself first to form your own educated opinion. 

 

And with the topic she's talking about, women's roles in gaming, that context from playing the game yourself is very important for many topics she's talking about like the damsel in distress roles in games like Zelda and Mario (which is ironic considering how Zelda actively helps Link in games like Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker) among other topics. 

 

I think to solve this issue she needs to come out and tell the public that she played the games she is talking about in her videos, then if the answer is yes, then she if somewhat justified to use the Lets Play's videos online; she could not have a capture card to record the footage for example.

[turbojet]

I have not watched part 2 or 3 yet, but did Anita seriously use Angel's death in Borderlands 2 as an example of Distressed Damsel? 

[Remy]

 

And with the topic she's talking about, women's roles in gaming, that context from playing the game yourself is very important for many topics she's talking about like the damsel in distress roles in games like Zelda and Mario (which is ironic considering how Zelda actively helps Link in games like Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker) among other topics.

 

 

It really, really isn't. I cannot think of a single example in a videogame, especially including Zelda, where the context of what you're doing isn't as easily understood by watching a clip as it is by sitting there playing a game. Wow the world of the Let's Play has warped expectations.

 

Games aren't this deep, multi faceted piece of literature that requires introspective reflection upon to understand the sexist, retarded plots she's discrediting in the first place. I could probably count the amount of games I've played that really made me think on one hand, and even then most of the thinking was usually done reflecting over what happened in a cutscene, or the script. Not particularly in the go between areas of jumping or shooting.

 

It's funny you mention Zelda, anyway- considering she pointed out how Zelda is awesome in OoT and Windwaker?? Although I guess you didn't watch that video. Huh.

 

People keep pointing out this "didn't play the games" vague dismissive arguement

 

The most disgusting thing about this whole thing is the lengths people will go to, so they can discredit Anita despite her not producing anything that offensive to begin with. that gamer sexism runs deep!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd say that Anita being one-sided and having such strict definitions of what good "strong female characters" are and implying how anything that doesn't fit that definition is misogynistic is very much offensive, because she is absolutely no different to the patriarchy in how she is restricting what female character's can be and is instead claiming to what a woman should be according to her; effectively taking on one extreme with another. And in doing so, she comes of hypocritical and a detriment to feminism, because she disallows one major thing that feminism should be about: choice, a choice to choose what person to be or what to do, whether she is strong or weak, as Anita gives off the impression that women who show weakness of any kind or does something she doesn't like to see in them is a bad thing. Now if that's not what she's implying, she isn't doing a very good job of making that clear to her opponents, because people keep reading her as if she's saying "I don't like it, therefore it's misogynistic." Not that I believe that the DiD isn't outdated and misogynistic (because for the most part, it is), but that other topics she talks about aren't so clear cut as she thinks.

 

However...that would be a problem were it not for her opposition making itself out to be a much bigger evil and literal parody of itself by proving her points and/or being very much misogynistic towards her and making themselves the prime example of she is talking about as they harass her in defense of their power fantasies, which is a problem that should be obvious to anyone who has a major interest in gaming (i.e. that gamer sexism). I guess, in a way, I'd say Anita is doing a good thing in bringing this up to the surface.

 

I won't deny that Anita has a point when she brings up certain topics, and she does often get me to think about the tropes when she delivers something I haven't considered. But when it comes to her conclusions she is way too black-and-white on the subject often to the degree where she either completely misses the point or skews the point of the work in question - that confirmation bias Turbojet brought up.

 

Probably two of the biggest things I can agree with her, no questions asked, is a desire to see more games that star female protagonists and dealing with blatant misogyny towards women. But aside from that, I can't fully defend either side.

Edited August 6, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Remy]

 

And in doing so, she comes of hypocritical and a detriment to feminism, because she disallows one major thing that feminism should be about: choice, a choice to choose what person to be or what to do, whether she is strong or weak, as Anita gives off the impression that women who show weakness of any kind or does something she doesn't like to see in them is a bad thing.

Isn't the video series about Damsels In Distress? I don't think anyone, anywhere, chooses to be a damsel in distress. Or a girlfriend in the fridge, or infected with ancient evil, etc.  People choose to be things like heroes, I guess but they don't often choose to be worthless.

 

And choice, errr isn't really relevant when we're talking about the institutional marginalization of women in virtually every game ever.

 

Damsel in distress is something that really makes me shake my head when people defend it. It's a dumb, awful cliche that should probably be obliterated just because of how stupid and hackneyed it is. Not to mention the retarded sexism as well.

I have not watched part 2 or 3 yet, but did Anita seriously use Angel's death in Borderlands 2 as an example of Distressed Damsel? 

 

Not really, It's part of a point about girls that die alongside like ten other games. Doesn't really dwell on it but it's used mostly appropriately.

 

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/05/damsel-in-distress-part-2-tropes-vs-women/

 

But the most extreme and gruesome variant of this trend is when developers combine the damsel in distress with the mercy killing. This usually happens when the player character must murder the woman in peril “for her own good”. I like to call this happy little gem the “Euthanized Damsel”. Typically the damsel has been mutilated or deformed in some way by the villain and the “only option left” to the hero is to put her “out of her misery” himself.

(snip)

 

Another popular Gearbox game, Borderlands 2, also uses this plot twist when Angel asks the player to murder her as a way to try and thwart the villain’s evil plan.

Clip- Borderlands 2

“Destroying the iridium injectors that keep me…alive…will stop the key from charging and it will end a lifetime of servitude”

It was basically used to show how often this happens. Fairly non judgmentally.

[iDEATH]

Who would like to see evidence to suggest she hasn't played the games/done any research?

 

You know all those clips from the games, the ones in her videos, the clips that according to her kickstarter were part of the reason for needing all that money? The extensive research? You know, the material she was going to study in order to find her conclusions?

 

Yeah... they're all stolen from other youtube videos.

 

Remember when I said she was a con artist and some people said there was no evidence to support that?

 

So... what exactly as she researching if she couldn't even use her own research/fottage in her own videos?

 

To be fair...that's not proof she didn't play the gae, it's just proof she didn't capture the footage herself.

 

Though, given her complete lack of understanding of some of the games she's given, yeah...I'm thinking she probably hasn't played them, at least beyond picking it up, seeing a woman getting kidnapped and throwing the controller away in a rage

[RK64]

I just don't understand the deeper issues of the whole damsels in destress motif then; I keep making stupid posts in this topic about it that both sound and are really stupid

I know it's wrong that the motif even is in games and is a bad leftover from gamings past, but I was trying to explain that playing the game can paint a clearer picture for what's going on in the game. I completely forgot she used OoT and WW as positive examples, so forgive my ignorance of her work.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Isn't the video series about Damsels In Distress? I don't think anyone, anywhere, chooses to be a damsel in distress. Or a girlfriend in the fridge, or infected with ancient evil, etc.  People choose to be things like heroes, I guess but they don't often choose to be worthless.

The video series is about "Tropes Vs. Women", right there in the title. Damsels in Distress is only one topic of the subseries regarding video games, not the whole thing. I'm talking about her points over everything she's talked about in all of her videos (and not just the video game examples), not a specific subset of it.

 

My point isn't about someone's choice to be a damsel in distress, but a choice to choose what she want's to be whether she was a strong woman or a weak one as I've already said, and that she implies that anything that isn't the right kind of female character, particularly the strong kind, is a bad female character and a misogynistic representation of women and that she isn't doing a good job of dis-spelling that implication from her opponents. And the DiD wasn't something I was supporting as a good thing, by the way.

Edited August 6, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[The Kid]

The video series is about "Tropes Vs. Women", right there in the title. Damsels in Distress is only one topic of the subseries regarding video games, not the whole thing. I'm talking about her points over everything she's talked about in all of her videos (and not just the video game examples), not a specific subset of it.

 

My point isn't about someone's choice to be a damsel in distress, but a choice to choose what she want's to be whether she was a strong woman or a weak one as I've already said, and that she implies that anything that isn't the right kind of female character, particularly the strong kind, is a bad female character and a misogynistic representation of women and that she isn't doing a good job of dis-spelling that implication from her opponents. And the DiD wasn't something I was supporting as a good thing, by the way.

 

Well, to be fair, it may be one topic of the series, but so far it is the only topic. "Damsels In Distress" is still in every title. I don't really know how choice matters, considering her whole point is that women are treated as objects and marginalized in video games. Of course, I didn't get as strong an impression of "this is the right type of female character, everything else is bad" as much as I did "women are commonly viewed as weak because they are female".

 

I get the whole "Who the person chooses to be is more important than whether they're strong or weak" stance, but when you're playing a protagonist in a game they're most likely going to be empowered or strong. The problem is that these "strong" characters are usually limited to males and not females.

 

My only problem with this series is that a lot of the arguments she comes up with are very basic, while the majority of the videos are filled up with examples rather than constructive ideas on how this problem can be fixed.

Edited August 6, 2013 by The Kid

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, to be fair, it may be one topic of the series, but so far it is the only topic. "Damsels In Distress" is still in every title. I don't really know how choice matters, considering her whole point is that women are treated as objects and marginalized in video games. Of course, I didn't get as strong an impression of "this is the right type of female character, everything else is bad" as much as I did "women are commonly viewed as weak because they are female".

 

I get the whole "Who the person chooses to be is more important than whether they're strong or weak" stance, but when you're playing a protagonist in a game they're most likely going to be empowered or strong. The problem is that these "strong" characters are usually limited to males and not females.

 

My only problem with this series is that a lot of the arguments she comes up with are very basic, while the majority of the videos are filled up with examples rather than constructive ideas on how this problem can be fixed.

Except, once again, I'm not talking about the Damsel in Distress, after having already said it is outdated and misogynistic. Nor am I talking specifically about video games, having already made that clear the first time, and then again in that very post you quoted where it says "and not just the video game examples", nor am I talking about her points in the Damsels in Distress video. And no, it isn't the only topic when she has a whole page of videos over different subjects, not all of which are over video games, and that's before getting into her inteviews prior to these videos.

 

I'm talking about her points, overall, on a number of her other videos and interviews, that I find one-sided and couples with the backlash that she gets over her views. That her beliefs of what she finds as good in protraying these characters, whether it is in a video game, a movie, a tv show, or comic, is black-and-white, and that she often misses the point of the work she is criticizing within some of her videos.

 

Once again, I'm not talking about solely the Damsel in Distress or Video Games. This is the second time I've had to say it, as if my first post wasn't general enough to make that clear. Do you get me now?

Edited August 6, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc