Dear Internet: Grow Up

[Nepenthe]

Socialism is also seen as a derogatory word. Doesn't mean people don't ascribe to it or its ideals out of fear of what people think or because of how the term has become derogatory. Hell, half the time people laugh when it's misused.

[Mollfie]

Feminism has been demonised pretty much since it's creation, before it was even called feminism, back when you were not a feminist but a suffragette, and it's not just been because of over-zealous activists or radical members either.

 

 

I need to get this out of my system, because I'm tired of hearing this.

 

No, sharing the views of a feminist doesn't actually make you one. A feminist is a equality activist. Activist. Stemming from the word Active.

 

I think women have shitty representation in the media and are treated unfairly in society. But I'm just some redneck in the middle of nowhere taking care of his parents, I'm not doing a goddamn thing about women's rights because I have my own agenda that I need to address at the moment.

 

I've wanted to say this on tumblr for god knows how long. Circlejerking on a shitty slacktivist blog with other slacktivist blogs isn't doing anything substantial to the cause, it's the equivalent of writing in a diary with the hope that everyone in the world happens to come across it.

 

Um... actually, a feminist is someone who advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. An advocate is someone who speaks in favour or argues for something, but even that doesn't necessarily make you can activist. Activism can take all sorts of different forms too, from writing letters to political figures to protesting. An advocate could simply chat to people in their day to day lives, treat women as equals and encourage others to do so too. You can be a feminist without ever leaving your house as long as you are someone who supports and believes in the rights and equality of women. Feminism is an ideology.

 

By your definition there are actually very few feminists in the world. You're ruling out millions of women throughout history who were unable to be activists due to personal circumstances or social pressures. You're ruling out women in our world right now who can't be activists because their societies will condemn them, because if they did say or do anything they may be risking their lives. They cannot be activists. They cannot speak out against inequality. These women were and are feminists as long as they believe that they should be treated as equals.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not sure why people sometimes seem to be so, I dunno, afraid of being called a feminist.

There's what Nepenthe said, and then there are individual reasons for it.

 

I find myself too grey to call myself a specific kind of Feminist, and the closest one I would be is an Individualist Feminist. But I think male liberation should be equally important, and I don't hear that very often from most camps of feminism (or I hear them bashing men by contrast), so it reaches a point where I sympathize with the MRAs when they're not bashing women on the topic. To say nothing of how black and white people make/want gender politics to be, or the infighting that goes on because of people's own experiences and prejudices.

 

This is just me being a cynic over it, but while you may say people are feminists for wanting equality between men and women (which would make me one according to you), I don't really care that much to identify myself as such.

 

Because the movement's been demonized to the point that people equate Feminism with bitchy, fanatical misandry?

It being split into several different camps since the 70s isn't making it better either.

Or having their message twisted by the vocal minority of those bitchy, fanatical factions that people associate it with.

 

And so forth. It's like what's happening with Christianity.

Edited August 11, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[JezMM]

I... really don't get it to be honest.  Being a feminist isn't some special thing you choose to be or life changing decision.  If you believe in equality between genders you just... are one.  "Feminist" is the name for a person who does that thing.

[Solkia]

Whatever. Sure, I'm a feminist, let's just go with that.

 

Sorry for even bringing it up.

[Mollfie]

Whatever. Sure, I'm a feminist, let's just go with that.

 

Sorry for even bringing it up.

 

Don't do that =C This is a discussion, no one is saying you're wrong or anything of the sort. We're just discussing feminism. Why quit? I don't understand.

 

You don't have to call yourself a feminist. I don't care what you call yourself. But it does make me wonder why you're apparently so displeased with the idea that you may be considered a feminist. I just stated what a feminist is by definition.

 

I can appreciate not wanting to call yourself a feminist, but you could acknowledge that you share the same beliefs and ideas, if you do. You do not have to label yourself anything if you don't want to but you could at least contribute to the discussion and, if you don't agree, defend your argument. That's the whole point of a forum, isn't it? To discuss things?

Edited August 11, 2013 by Mollfie

[Solkia]

Like I said in my first post

 

 

I think women have shitty representation in the media and are treated unfairly in society. 

 

SO yes, I share the same views as a Feminist.

 

However the term leaves a bad taste in my mouth for the reasons stated by both Nepenthe and CSS. It's a shame, but it's how I feel about the term.

 

I've felt like hell the entire week, and I don't feel like putting anymore feet in my mouth.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Solkia

[Meow]

I know that for myself, personally, I don't identify using the term feminist even though I share a lot of similar ideals I guess to people who do. I understand this might end up being a bit of a controversial (?) thing to say but I don't identify with that term because I don't feel it is neutral enough for promoting equality across people of all walks of life, however the modern day useage of it certainly promotes that. I prefer to use the term egalitarianism when describing what I believe because I feel it is a little bit more of an all inclusive term. I don't have anything against the word feminism itself though as a whole, and I doubt I'd ever really correct someone if they inferred that I was. It personally isn't a huge deal to me because at the end of the day I believe in equality for all people and if the modern day feminism is supporting that same ideal the label is less important to me than the belief.

That's just how I feel about that though . At the end of the day we're all out to make the world better for one another and really in the end that's all that counts right?

[Mauro Fonseca]

Okay just had to respond to this.

 

Yes.  Yes every character should be geared towards feminists.  Or that is to say, every cast of characters in a body of work should be geared towards feminists.

 

Because feminism is not about destroying the sexual portrayal of women.  It is about equality.  If you believe men and women should be equal, you are a feminist.  (If you don't believe men and women should be equal do not ever talk to me because you're a twat).

I'd say you're the twat supporting a movement that has no purpose for existence in the 1st world at this point instead of the one trying to equalizing the sexes and furthering that on by telling me I'm either a Feminist or a twat, but I suppose that's regular third-wave feminism rhetoric.

 

(general post)

Here's why many don't like being called feminists.

You ever read about communism? Socialism? The Marx stuff? It was good stuff. I wouldn't mind being called a communist.

Oh wait. I would. Because despite what it WAS at the start, what it BECAME was a fascist-socialist doctrine of repression. So even if I share ideals with communism at its root, I won't call myself a communist. I'll call myself something else, the normal is socialist.

A group of people is always defined by the vocal minority. Shame, but truth. Men's rights activists supposedly want gender equality by counterpointing feminism, but good luck trying to remember them as anything more than Reddit Fedoras.

Likewise, First-Wave Feminism, even the 2nd-Wave, was great and needed. Equal rights to women. Changing perceptions.

Nowadays? Sure, there are many feminists trying to fight for equality. But the ones occupying the public plaza? They're the ones shouting "Kill all men, destroy all burkas, stop males from raping", etc.

EDIT: Tying it all together? Feminism used to be about fighting to give women basic rights every human should have, such as suffrage. Any self-respecting person agreed with it.

Then Feminism was about changing the big, obvious cultural biases present. In terms of importance, a minor goal, but still important. Again, any self-respecting person agreed with it.

Then we have the third generation, the one who grew up with tales of cool women fighting for their rights and thus want to fight for their rights too. But the rights are fought for.

So they instead complain about video-games.

Would you want to associate with this last group? It's not that there aren't still inequalities, remember how the girls in that Capcom Reality Show were treated? It's that the inequalities aren't big enough that it only makes sense to balance them from the women's size. What's being done in terms of men's shelter? Or men safe spaces? Rape is tendentially done more to men than women, but all public campaigns will focus on "Men! Don't rape! Swiper no swiping!" And then if you try to call attention to that, the feminists in the public plaza will shout, "no you're oppressing us", "no you're taking attention away from women's issues", "that's your fault anyway because patriarchy", etc.

So no, I'm sorry Jez. A person who wants equal rights is not a feminist. It's right there in the name. Feminist. Female. Not Masculinist or whatever. Neither Feminism nor MRA is the answer. There's an answer obvious enough, but this reads enough like a political pamphlet as it is.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Captain Harlock

[Stacy]

Nowadays? Sure, there are many feminists trying to fight for equality. But the ones occupying the public plaza? They're the ones shouting "Kill all men, destroy all burkas, stop males from raping", etc.

 

Ironically nobody who claims themselves feminists here is protesting about these issues which could be considered more pressing.

Edited August 11, 2013 by BW199148

[Diogenes]

"Stop males from raping" sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[Mauro Fonseca]

What issues would be more pressing? The killing of all manhood? Christ, BW, I'd rather annoying but useless modern feminism if it stuck to games rather than going on about trying to tell other women from other countries how they shouldn't wear their burkas even if they want to. And sure, stop males from raping, but no-one says "from raping other males too" or even "stop females as well". And if you say "also, try to understand, while the blame is on the rapist, try not to dress provocatively in dangerous areas. Telling people to be careful of murderers is not victim blaming", try and gauge the response.

[Mr. Taxi]

Okay just had to respond to this.

 

Yes.  Yes every character should be geared towards feminists.  Or that is to say, every cast of characters in a body of work should be geared towards feminists.

 

Because feminism is not about destroying the sexual portrayal of women.  It is about equality.  If you believe men and women should be equal, you are a feminist.  (If you don't believe men and women should be equal do not ever talk to me because you're a twat).

 

I forgot to bring this up in the W101 topic because I was fresh off trying the pure-gameplay based experience of the demo, but yes Wonder Pink bothers me.  Even in the context of the game.

 

She is a parody of the "sexy female superhero" stereotype.  That is fine.  I actually like her design, super-deformedness aside she is pretty hot, good job design team.

 

What bothers me is she is the only playable female character in the game.  Why couldn't there have been another female character who parodied a non-gender specific superhero cliché?  Yes there's a non-sexualised female support character, but that is not really enough when you have what... six playable male characters who reflect a whole spectrum of different personalities.  But the girl is just "the sexy one".  Crock of shit, even in a parody.  You can parody old stereotypes while moving forward too.

 

I'm not saying every work must contain both genders in equal amounts.  Not every work even needs to contain both genders.  But when a body of work DOES contain both genders, shit like this needs to be put in the past.

 

And here's where I think this political approach can enhance gaming experience instead of censoring it.

 

See, if we had lots of playable characters showing a diverse spectrum of traits and personalities, wouldn't that make the game better? I like it when people say "hey, this is not the only thing women can be about", which actually broadens our options in game design and can give us a whole new public to appeal to. I don't like it when the message is "this is not what women are about at all", because, in the end, it's a free medium, as turbojet nicely put it as well.

[JezMM]

So no, I'm sorry Jez. A person who wants equal rights is not a feminist. It's right there in the name. Feminist. Female.

 

Duh.  Females are the ones at a disadvantage.  Equality for both genders involves empowering females but only to the same level that males are already at, nothing further.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:+feminism

 

Read it.  That is what feminism means.  There is NO discussion on this.  It is cold hard fact that that is the meaning of the word.

 

 

What is worth discussing, is whether we continue to promote what feminism is about, or whether we disregard it because people like you choose to pay attention to the vocal minority extremists as if you have no choice but to define it from their shitty actions.  Some of us are trying to undo it in whatever small ways we can, and people like you who refuse to accept that won't let us.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Oh, you can keep being feminist as long as you like. You'll notice my points were all argued to the point of "feminism is useless" "here's why I don't like them" "the word doesn't mean what it used to" and "this is why many don't want to associate with the word". Not "stop being feminist".

Your response was to continue "No, this is what the word means and you ARE feminists even if you don't say you are". Kinda shitty.

Also, 1st world? US, Europe? Females aren't the ones at a disadvantage. That was the whole point of the fight of the suffragettes and the feminists of the 60's. Females have disadvantages against males, but males have disadvantages against females, and it's finally at a point where it's balanced enough that it doesn't make sense to insist on carrying on with a gender-specific movement.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Captain Harlock

[JezMM]

What issues would be more pressing? The killing of all manhood? Christ, BW, I'd rather annoying but useless modern feminism if it stuck to games rather than going on about trying to tell other women from other countries how they shouldn't wear their burkas even if they want to. And sure, stop males from raping, but no-one says "from raping other males too" or even "stop females as well". And if you say "also, try to understand, while the blame is on the rapist, try not to dress provocatively in dangerous areas. Telling people to be careful of murderers is not victim blaming", try and gauge the response.

Forgot to quote in previous post, but this is another example of you paying attention to the idiots rather than intelligent people.

"rather than going on about trying to tell other women from other countries how they shouldn't wear their burkas even if they want to"

No intelligent feminist does this.

"no-one says "from raping other males too" or even "stop females as well""

Intelligent feminists do.

"And if you say "also, try to understand, while the blame is on the rapist, try not to dress provocatively in dangerous areas. Telling people to be careful of murderers is not victim blaming", try and gauge the response"

Intelligent feminists would agree with this advice.

 

Oh, you can keep being feminist as long as you like. You'll notice my points were all argued to the point of "feminism is useless" "here's why I don't like them" "the word doesn't mean what it used to" and "this is why many don't want to associate with the word". Not "stop being feminist".

Your response was to continue "No, this is what the word means and you ARE feminists even if you don't say you are". Kinda shitty.

Also, 1st world? US, Europe? Females aren't the ones at a disadvantage. That was the whole point of the fight of the suffragettes and the feminists of the 60's. Females have disadvantages against males, but males have disadvantages against females, and it's finally at a point where it's balanced enough that it doesn't make sense to insist on carrying on with a gender-specific movement.

So because the situation in the 1st world is becoming halfway decent, we should stop being vocal about the ideology?  Like, we shouldn't care about countries where women are still forced into arranged marriages and such and threatened with banishment from their families or death if they refuse?

 

And I'm not denying that there is a stigma around the word and what it means now due to extremists.  I just think reclaiming the word is something worth fighting for.

 

 

EDIT:

 

In response to this in particular:

 

Your response was to continue "No, this is what the word means and you ARE feminists even if you don't say you are". Kinda shitty.

 

Why do you choose to accept the negative version of the word when you yourself have said that the people it applies to are a minority?

Edited August 12, 2013 by JezMM

[Celestia]

Oh, you can keep being feminist as long as you like. You'll notice my points were all argued to the point of "feminism is useless" "here's why I don't like them" "the word doesn't mean what it used to" and "this is why many don't want to associate with the word". Not "stop being feminist".

...how does all of that not equal "stop being feminist"?

 

 

Females have disadvantages against males, but males have disadvantages against females, and it's finally at a point where it's balanced enough that it doesn't make sense to insist on carrying on with a gender-specific movement.

 

Most of the "disadvantages" men face--that I can think of, anyway--have to do with sexism towards women, anyway. Stuff like "Men can't be weak or they'll be considered female!!" Well, that wouldn't be a problem if being a girl (or feminine) wasn't considered Bad.

 

I'm not even sure how to respond to the whole "1st world" thing. Yes, things are even worse for women in non-first world countries. But while they're certainly better in the U.S., Britain, even Canada, etc., they're not all that good in most aspects, either.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Oh, you can keep being feminist as long as you like. You'll notice my points were all argued to the point of "feminism is useless" "here's why I don't like them" "the word doesn't mean what it used to" and "this is why many don't want to associate with the word". Not "stop being feminist".

Your response was to continue "No, this is what the word means and you ARE feminists even if you don't say you are". Kinda shitty.

Also, 1st world? US, Europe? Females aren't the ones at a disadvantage. That was the whole point of the fight of the suffragettes and the feminists of the 60's. Females have disadvantages against males, but males have disadvantages against females, and it's finally at a point where it's balanced enough that it doesn't make sense to insist on carrying on with a gender-specific movement.

Recently the Voting Rights Act got slashed in one major area (Section 4 or 5 IIRC) which protected minorities, and one claim was that "the Voting Rights Act was obsolete and thus no longer needed". Not too long after that, (I think) Texas passed some kind of thing that would keep minorities out from voting, or at least make it extremely difficult to do so. If racism is still alive and well and immediately sprang back up after one of the major things keeping it at bay got neutered, what's to stop people from trying to find a way to ensure women are silenced and trodden underfoot?

Edited August 12, 2013 by 743 ED Missile

[JezMM]

Oh let's not forget that ridiculous malarkey with abortion stuff and "the woman who wouldn't sit down" being ignored and cheated out of her viewpoints in Texas.  1st world is pretty much equal my arse.

[The Kid]

This reminds me of the whole race discussion issue in the news, where more white people thought racism was extinct while black people thought it wasn't even close. The same could probably be said for the two sexes.

 

Regardless, the discussion should always continue if any sort of inequality still exists.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Oh I don't disagree I'm paying attention to the idiots. Everyone does.

I'm also not saying you shouldn't stop fighting for GENDER EQUALITY. I was thinking I wouldn't need to spell this, makes me feel like a recruitment poster. The inequalities of women in the 1st world are balanced with the inequalities of men in the 1st world. Feminism is useless and taken by radicals. MRA is useless and taken by radicals. There is a third way. Fighting shouldn't stop. It should stop focusing only on women.

 

Even your posts show this, even if you didn't notice. Feminism is equality for the genders, you said. Then you said females are the ones at a disadvantage, so feminism is needed. The implication here is that all that's needed is females to be like men. Because men have no problems, I assume. All that matters is getting women to the level of men.

 

And I thought I said it times enough, but here comes one more time. There's a reason I'm constantly mentioning the 1st world. There's a reason I explained the question of suffragette -> 60's feminist -> girl complaining about video games. I'll make it clearer, even though speaking in these levels of absolutes annoys me politically. In the 1st world, there's no need for Feminism since the balance of genders is at a point that what's needed is to iron out problems on both sides, not just one. Feminism is needed in countries where baby girls' genitalia is being cut off. Complaining about Zelda will do jackshit in helpint with that.

[JezMM]

But Feminism IS about both genders.  No-one is saying Men don't have problems too, but as ElementofChaos said, most of these are to do with being feminine being seen as a bad thing, which is a problem with how the world sees females.

 

Sorry but you are completely delusional if you think men and women have it just as bad as each other.  We're getting there but women are certainly still worse off.  Please list these problems men suffer from that women don't without any that refer to the fact that a man acting like a woman in any capacity is a bad thing.  Because that is part of feminism too.

 

 

 

Also don't pull the "people have it worse stop complaining about video games" crap.  That's the exact same logic as telling a depressed person to quit complaining because people have it worse than them.  It is all part of one overarching bubble of inequality.  It is a less important part than the physical suffering of real women, but it is still an important part because it is media portrayal that continues to fuel the idea in people mind's that women are lesser, or objects to be enjoyed sexually only etc etc.  Can't remember the last time I saw a man in a cleaning product advert.

 

If anything I will say we should be thankful that in our society, feminism has progressed to the point that media portrayal is the main thing left to complain about, but that doesn't change the fact that it means we are still not done.

Edited August 12, 2013 by JezMM

[Red Cap]

Also don't pull the "people have it worse stop complaining about video games" crap.  That's the exact same logic as telling a depressed person to quit complaining because people have it worse than them.

I don't think telling people to stop complaining about fake people is the same as telling real people to stop complaining about their depression. It's not even close.

[PSI Wind]

Just thought I'd correct Jez that Wonder Pink isn't the only playable female in W101, she's just the only main character that's a female.

[JezMM]

I don't think telling people to stop complaining about fake people is the same as telling real people to stop complaining about their depression. It's not even close.

 

It's still saying "stop complaining about small problem because big problem is worse".  Which is not a proper argument.  Problems are problems. AND it's all linked together anyway as media portrayal influences a lot, as I said in my last post.

 

Just thought I'd correct Jez that Wonder Pink isn't the only playable female in W101, she's just the only main character that's a female.

Uhh, same difference? I assume you mean there are females among your crowd of heroes but that doesn't really count now does it.

Edited August 12, 2013 by JezMM