Dear Internet: Grow Up

[Nepenthe]

She's making five videos about this one subject; I would assume in good faith she'll have more interesting insight about the matter than just "females in games are marketed towards 15-20 year old boys." I would also assume that not everyone on the planet who uses the Internet is aware of just how rampant an issue this is in video game culture, so there's the potential to reach some new people as well with this series. Ultimately though, I don't understand why this video tackling a subject we "know about" is grounds to criticize the project's existence. Not every video must highlight an underplayed issue or radically new concepts. Rather, consistent conversation about something is one of the steps towards improvement.

[Diogenes]

I'm... not really seeing how that's the same thing.

I'm not saying they're equal, but they're both at least partially based on a "well it's always been like that" argument, and that...really isn't an argument.

Catwoman having always been sexy and flirty doesn't mean we shouldn't be very careful about how we use that sort of character, or that we shouldn't consider the question of whether we should use that kind of character at all.

[Sami]

She's making five videos about this one subject; I would assume in good faith she'll have more interesting insight about the matter than just "females in games are marketed towards 15-20 year old boys." I would also assume that not everyone on the planet who uses the Internet is aware of just how rampant an issue this is in video game culture, so there's the potential to reach some new people as well with this series. Ultimately though, I don't understand why this video tackling a subject we "know about" is grounds to criticize the project's existence. Not every video must highlight an underplayed issue or radically new concepts. Rather, consistent conversation about something is one of the steps towards improvement.

Social commentary doesn't require $6000 worth of donations, especially considering how I firmly believe this won't be insightful in the slightest.

[Stacy]

When you have the balls to say you feel you are discriminated against for being a straight white male, you deserve the response Diogenes gave you.

I didn't mean discriminated, I meant ashamed.

[Nepenthe]

Social commentary doesn't require $6000 worth of donations, especially considering how I firmly believe this won't be insightful in the slightest.

Making five films (actually twelve now that I read), regardless of subject, with acceptable lighting, perhaps green screen use, a good camera, custom game footage, and editing, will indeed cost you pretty penny. The proprietary software alone can cost a few thousand. There's no reason she should be forced to settle with a terrible $40 webcam from Radio Shack, especially if she's doing this as serious commentary and plans to spread this around and advertise it as much as possible.

And if you believe she'll have absolutely nothing to offer the conversation (I disagree), then consider yourself well-informed about the issue. But don't assume everyone on the Internet is. Overall, I see no reason to shit on the effort's very existence just because you yourself think her voice in the matter, despite not having heard it yet, is useless.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Mega]

Honestly, as someone who hates traditional gender roles with a burning passion, it's always bothered me how sexualized female characters are not only in games but any medium. Seriously, check out the documentary "Miss Representation". It's really eye-opening.

The sad thing is, people tend to brush it off as 'lolfeminism' when it's brought up, creating some hilarious double standards. It bothers me how a lot of female characters are the designated love interest/sex appeal/cutesy character/defined by being 'strong and independent women' rather than being a strong and independent character who happens to be a woman. Heck, a lot of female characters are defined by their sex rather than personality. It also seems like if there's a female lead, she either needs big tits or a manly man love interest (with some exceptions, I'm sure).

Yes, males undergo stereotyping, no doubt. And the idea of men embracing something traditionally feminine is highly frowned upon in most societies, which is incredibly stupid... and also implies that femininity is inferior. I think the reason why some people get so defensive over stuff like this is because they like the sexualized female characters, and to take it away feels threatening or insulting.

[turbojet]

When I first look at Chris Redfield and Ezio Auditore, I think "badass hero"... then I think "dead sexy." Unfortunately, body language generally doesn't do as much justice to otherwise perfectly good female characters, like Lara Croft and Samus. The problem isn't about scantily clad women (although I do think it might do the media some good to have a little more diversity in female character design, but that's a different discussion altogether), it's about making sure those women are being presented as characters instead of yard ornaments.

If you are going to criticize the presentation of Catwoman in Arkham City and then uphold the presentation of Lara Croft and Samus, you might want to at least go over the former's story in the game as well as her character in general. You criticize Catwoman for how she looks while stating it isn't because how women are scantily clad that is the problem. Lara Croft was nothing but a blank slate. She literally had no character. She was a tabula rosa that the audience imprinted a personality on because she was a video game sex symbol. She was literally the quintessential problem with how video game female characters are portrayed. She never conveyed any emotion besides how background. "But she was strong and stuff." Yeah, while toting dual pistols, two impossibly huge assets, an impossibly thin waist, and disproportionately round ass that such a thin waist should not support. She was the very definition of objectifying women. Then you point how Batman is portrayed as focused and dedicated, then criticize Catwoman in a certain pose. Lara Croft has always, advertisements or not, been in a suggestive pose with her assets first and foremost at the center. Now, which I argued about and through asking an extremely feminist friend who promptly told me that I was wrong and how I was wrong, we have new Tomb Raider Lara who is not only an Uncharted rip-off, but is showing victimization. Catwoman may have been scantily clad, but it was not without reason. She is using her sexual attractiveness as an incredibly attractive woman to distract men. She is armored and she is never portrayed as weak although the convicts in the game are all too happy to want to rape her and call her a bitch(And yes, this is wrong). Harley Quinn, as Masaru pointed out, has no excuse as her entire being, purpose, and existence in the game or the comics for that matter is to be Joker's girl. Then we get to Samus, who was always portrayed as non-sexual, straight to the point badass up to the point of Other M where she is suddenly helpless without men.

Now that is through, sexism in the media is a problem. And the unwillingness for most men to actually have a civil discourse about it without resorting to the crap that this woman has gone through shows that it is a problem. I saw Bayonetta in her project. I want to see her try to deconstruct her or Faith from Mirror's Edge. Then, again, they could be used as a counterpoint. Who knows.

Edited June 12, 2012 by turbojet

[Emmett L. Brown]

Samus and Metroid bring up a great point. We have a franchise where for a very long time players were specifically rewarded for excellent playtimes by the amount of bounty hunter bikini they got to see at the end.

Now flip the gender.

Try to imagine a series of 2D exploration-shooter type video games starring a guy in full powered armour that left no skin exposed anywhere. Imagine then that depending on how quickly you got to the end, you were rewarded first with the guy in armour for a bad time, then the guy in a tight T-shirt and form-fitting pants for a decent time, and finally the guy in a tight speedo showing off his bod.

I'd totally pay for a product like that, but can you seriously imagine it being created in yesterday, today, or tomorrow's video game marked?

[Solkia]

Samus and Metroid bring up a great point. We have a franchise where for a very long time players were specifically rewarded for excellent playtimes by the amount of bounty hunter bikini they got to see at the end.

Now flip the gender.

Try to imagine a series of 2D exploration-shooter type video games starring a guy in full powered armour that left no skin exposed anywhere. Imagine then that depending on how quickly you got to the end, you were rewarded first with the guy in armour for a bad time, then the guy in a tight T-shirt and form-fitting pants for a decent time, and finally the guy in a tight speedo showing off his bod.

I'd totally pay for a product like that, but can you seriously imagine it being created in yesterday, today, or tomorrow's video game marked?

"This is a shitty Metroid rip-off, stop ripping off Nintendo's ideas"

Honestly, I don't think Samus was originally intended to be a sex symbol, I think that's just how it played out.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Honestly, I don't think Samus was originally intended to be a sex symbol, I think that's just how it played out.

I don't think she was intended to be a sex symbol either, at least I didn't think so until I played Other M and developed a sincere loathing towards Yoshio Sakamoto, who I feel is personally responsible for almost killing what was a superb series with a strong female protagonist. I'm not talking about her being a sex symbol, I'm talking about using fanservice as a reward for players. Would that still happen if the gender was flipped? Could it happen today, or tomorrow?

[Solkia]

I don't think she was intended to be a sex symbol either, at least I didn't think so until I played Other M and developed a sincere loathing towards Yoshio Sakamoto, who I feel is personally responsible for almost killing what was a superb series with a strong female protagonist. I'm not talking about her being a sex symbol, I'm talking about using fanservice as a reward for players. Would that still happen if the gender was flipped? Could it happen today, or tomorrow?

Well, as Somecallmejohnny mentioned in his review, Other M is special since Team Ninja had a part in it, and their track record with female characters has always been like that.

[Candescence]

Well, as Somecallmejohnny mentioned in his review, Other M is special since Team Ninja had a part in it, and their track record with female characters has always been like that.

If I remember correctly, Team Ninja had no part in the story, and I think said track record could be owed to Ikagaki, who had left Team Ninja a while before.

Also, turbojet reminded me that Catwoman used her sexuality as a weapon to distract and fool men, so she has that, too. Not that it does much good against Batman, who seems to only have eyes on Talia al Ghul, who, speaking of which, is the most conservatively dressed female character in the game, and also uses flirtation as a means to an end (to try and get Batman to succeed her father and to break his "no killing" rule).

[Solkia]

If I remember correctly, Team Ninja had no part in the story, and I think said track record could be owed to Ikagaki, who had left Team Ninja a while before.

Also, turbojet reminded me that Catwoman used her sexuality as a weapon to distract and fool men, so she has that, too. Not that it does much good against Batman, who seems to only have eyes on Talia al Ghul, who, speaking of which, is the most conservatively dressed female character in the game, and also uses flirtation as a means to an end (to try and get Batman to succeed her father and to break his "no killing" rule).

Team Ninja having no part in the story is what I heard too. But the story isn't what I ment, I ment Samus's appearance in Other M. Her breasts are much bigger, her hips... looked like the were wider, some of the cutscenes were just blatant shots of her figure, etc.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Solkia-kun

[Pelly <3's U]

I honestly hope you're joking when you say samus is portrayed as non-sexual. Also catwomen using her sexuality to distract men to me seems to be quite a light justification for being able to hyper sexualize her (despite the fact that virtually every other female in the superhero world is sexuality almost to the same extent...surely all for good, story-logical reasons)

Yaaaa I think it goes a bit beyond bland character representations and teenage boys fantasies being assuaged.

The treatment of women in the overall gaming community is frankly disgusting, along with the hatred and insults spewed at many other minority groups. The sad thing though is sensing the truth behind a lot of these messages, and as a women in the gaming culture seeing just how bad and inherent some peoples hatred really can be.

We only have to look at something like the cross assault controversy to see that beyond having to deal with the constant objectification of any gender relatable characters in the media, as a women in the gaming industry and culture there is also the reality of facing a much more real and tangible sexism and hatred. I understand that over the internet everyone is usually subject to some harassment, especially with the anonymity of the situation, and I'm sympathetic to that. But the distinction is that when you're playing a game and someone calls you a dickfuck or tells you to have sex with your sister, it can usually just be brushed off to the anger of the person playing the game. But when you constantly get to read or hear 1000s of messages of people who seem to speak from an actual sense of hatred against you and something you are, it's a big of a different story as anyone who's been discriminated against can tell you.

When someone see's an intelligent women trying to make a point and dismisses it by saying something like 'tits or gtfo' or we see someone like the girl on crossfire being harassed not only by her /team captain/ but egged on by people in the chat, there is the very reality that these comments are not just something completely banal and inherent in the anonymity of the situation, but of actual hatred and dismissiveness towards the entire female gender.

Now couple this with the outright fact that yes, women are portrayed in general pretty poorly in the media, especially one aimed so prevalently at young, males like video games. And when you are an outsider who tries to breach this wall, even someone who as much finds passions and and has love for gaming, the constant reminder from everywhere and everyone that you are supposed to be inferior and secondary and unimportant and objectified is not just a concept of some social structure, but an actual problem with consequences for many.

I watched a video that mentioned the cross assault (which I wish I could find now) that said something like ‘Look at the moment where you can see Miranda love games, and look at the moment you can see her love of games being torn out and ripped to shreds.’

Videogames may be aimed at the whole ‘straight, white, young, male’ population, but the reality is this is not who is playing them. Every statistic now shows us what a broad range of ages, nationalities, races, and genders’ gaming encompasses, and the simple fact of the matter is using this as an excuse anymore doesn’t work. When people say this, it is the equivalent of saying gaming only /wants/ young, white, straight, angry males….and that should not be the message that a growing industry wishes to spread.

[Solkia]

Wasn't there an article somewhere that said that about 40-50% of gamers are female now?

EDIT: It's an old article, so it's probably increased in percentage http://wow.zuggaming.com/2008/07/26/40-of-gamers-are-girls/

Edited June 12, 2012 by Solkia-kun

[Pawn]

I haven't often played games where this happens, but I'm very well aware that it does. One I have played though is Arkham City, already a popular source in this thread, where the likes of Catwoman, Harley and Poison Ivy are on display. One could argue that this is a correct portrayal of their characters but that just reveals how much of an issue sexualisation is in comics. Did the developers need to match it to this extent? Does Catwoman really need to slide on her back in such a way that you get an eyeful of her cleavage, while Batman slides as you would expect him too? Need Poison Ivy be almost naked? Meanwhile Harley serves as little more than Joker's dimwitted totty in the game and her design reflects this.

Of the four important females characters, Talia as a character doesn't lend herself so heavily to sexual themes, and as such should provide the opportunity to prove that not all Arkham City women need pertain to them. Yet despite the developers electing not have her chest exposed, they make up for this by exposing her waist, placing the camera just behind her arse and giving her a rather questionable posture:

[media=]

The walk itself actually made me laugh, the first time I saw the scene. I would be lying if I claimed that I don't ever think any of these characters are nice to look at but it doesn't stop me from recognising how over the top it can be. This post barely scratches the surface.

I can only imagine what girls/women make of it all, and there's absolutely no legitimate reason that Sarkeesian should receive the sort of reaction she did.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Lungo

[Carbo]

What iteration of Samus here is being discussed as "sexual"?

I can agree when it comes to her iteration in Other M, but the original iterations and Prime series portrayed her pretty much being the antithesis of a sexual character. When Prime came around there was still an entire generation totally unaware of Samus' gender unless they read supplemental materials or actually finished the games. Yahtzee pretty much said it the best in his Other M video where the older games basically went "she's a lady, just deal with it". Mind you seeing through her visor starting Super Metroid would be a good indicator lest you'd think she was an effeminate guy, but at first glance there weren't exactly a lot of people who who could promptly look at her armor and immediately go "yeah that's a girl".

It really says a lot about an entire collective audience if her reveal in the original Metroid still racks up today as one of the most shocking moments of video game history, and apart from Other M there is no prancing about around the issue. Her mannerisms were never any different from other characters within the series and if any character during that time would have to be classified as sexual I'd give that award to Gandrayda.

Then again I can't remember a time when Nintendo sexualized any female character they made. And I refuse to acknowledge that Paper Mario counts.

[Diogenes]

What iteration of Samus here is being discussed as "sexual"?

Well,

For the most part I agree with you, that aside from Other M Samus avoids the vast majority of typical female character sexualization (as well as a lot of other stereotypical traits), but the Zero Suit is...kinda questionable. And it's worth mentioning that the games typically reward you for doing well with a shot of an attractive woman in either a skin-tight jumpsuit or a space bikini. In a different context that would be throwing up some major red flags...

[Pelly <3's U]

Catwoman may have been scantily clad, but it was not without reason. She is using her sexual attractiveness as an incredibly attractive woman to distract men.

[JezMM]

See, you have to be careful though.

For example, with that Samus graphic up there.

There's two possibilities for the point of this image:

1. Reward the player for 100% completion with a short scene of high quality art in which we get to see a nice shot of Samus' butt.

2. Reward the player for 100% completion with a short scene of high quality art.

The problem here is that even if the genuine 100% intention of the developer was number 2 - as long as there's a behind shot of Samus, people will see it as number 1, because hey we are human and hey she has a nice butt!

So all I'm saying is... say they did the same scene but she's not in her Zero Suit, or it's cropped a little higher so you can't see her butt - that's where I start to question "oh so woman aren't allowed to be sexy now?"

It's just... argh such an annoyingly tricky issue that I don't think one can ever work out any "rules" for you know?

[VO.SUPER]

I watched a video that mentioned the cross assault (which I wish I could find now) that said something like ‘Look at the moment where you can see Miranda love games, and look at the moment you can see her love of games being torn out and ripped to shreds.’

You're thinking of this Extra Credits video

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment

Well,

For the most part I agree with you, that aside from Other M Samus avoids the vast majority of typical female character sexualization (as well as a lot of other stereotypical traits), but the Zero Suit is...kinda questionable. And it's worth mentioning that the games typically reward you for doing well with a shot of an attractive woman in either a skin-tight jumpsuit or a space bikini. In a different context that would be throwing up some major red flags...

In all honesty, not all the games do that, and they do it differently. Metroid 1, Super Metroid's, and Metroid Fusion's intentions cleary were in the sexual nature (seriously, she wears a bikini), but the Prime series seemed a little different, we would always get this dramatic camera shot during the ending but it was never entirely focused on Samus' Zero Suit. Just because the bodysuit is sexual doesn't mean it's used in completely suggestive manners, in the case of that image you posted, yeah, that's the consequence of the suit being designed that way, but thankfully it's better than the bikini.

[Mollfie]

I'm not surprised that some people reacted the way that they did, and I doubt that Anita is really surprised either though I'm sure that she was upset by it. Who wouldn't be? I'm also really glad that she's continuing anyway and that she has got such attention. It's not just good for her own videos (which I personally like) but also because it does put a spotlight on just how stupid a lot of people on the internet can be and how incredibly sexist people can be too.

Anita talks about sexism in the media, not just video games, and I think that's important. Not everyone is as clued as some of us and many people do just accept the images and messages that are thrown at us without even thinking about it.

Personally I haven't really got an issue with sexy characters, what I object to is when that's all they are. The majority of the time male characters are not portrayed in the same way that female characters are. Male characters will usually be far more fleshed out, they're not just eye-candy. There are always exceptions of course. Female characters are often over-looked and under-developed. They're often there as an object, to be looked at, or they are there as some sort of care-giver. There are some exceptions of course.

One of my favourite female characters in video games is Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. She is an attractive looking character but she's also got a personality, she's capable and she doesn't need anyone to look after her. The game itself is awesome too and she isn't the only female character either, there are other female characters in positions of power who are not just there to look pretty. Even if they don't play a particularly big role in Jade's story you get an impression that they have their own lives, and the same goes for pretty much all of the characters. Even the male characters are not overly stereotypical. Jade's world isn't male dominated and Jade also isn't the woman in the game, as is often the case, she's just a woman and she's the lead in a genre (action adventure) that is usually male dominated.

When you consider that most games are hours and hours long, there's really no excuse to not properly develop your characters.

It can be done. You can create attractive but realistic and capable female characters and it's not even difficult! Women are people after all and we are capable of doing pretty much anything that a man can do, and yet female characters are still often sidelined.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Mollfie

[Tornado]

See, you have to be careful though.

For example, with that Samus graphic up there.

There's two possibilities for the point of this image:

1. Reward the player for 100% completion with a short scene of high quality art in which we get to see a nice shot of Samus' butt.

2. Reward the player for 100% completion with a short scene of high quality art.

The problem here is that even if the genuine 100% intention of the developer was number 2 - as long as there's a behind shot of Samus, people will see it as number 1, because hey we are human and hey she has a nice butt!

So all I'm saying is... say they did the same scene but she's not in her Zero Suit, or it's cropped a little higher so you can't see her butt - that's where I start to question "oh so woman aren't allowed to be sexy now?"

It's just... argh such an annoyingly tricky issue that I don't think one can ever work out any "rules" for you know?

That's actually my main... I don't want to say "issue," but cause of wariness with this documentary. Because it says it will explore gender roles and sexism and female stereotypes in videogames, but the way I see it it can be broken up into 3 parts (hopefully this isn't out of place for me to say):

• Intended and obvious sexism/objectifying. DoA and original Tomb Raider-style stuff.
  
• Unintended and subconscious sexism/objectifying. This is the kind of stuff that we were talking about in that new Tomb Raider game thread, where in an attempt to make a strong female character they (perhaps) accidentally sexualize her in another, (perhaps) unintended way.
  
• Stuff that isn't sexist/objectifying, or at the very least isn't intended to be sexist or objectifying, but the player views it as such (Jez's "hey, she's got a nice butt" bit covers that nicely) anyway.
  

And what worries me is, not knowing Sarkeesian's credentials or any of her other work (and thus not knowing her thought processes), I'm not sure how she will treat the latter two. Because developer intent does seem like it should be an important thing to take into account over this, and that's... not an easy thing to determine most of the time (as the above Catwoman discussion shows, I think). Particularly not when the line is so hard to determine in regards to subconscious implementation.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Tornado

[Solkia]

btw Jez, that isn't the 100% completion art. It's just an in-game art piece.

https://encrypted-tb...aRCm1xW9A-cHK02

This is the 100% ending piece.

EDIT: Oh wait, that's the ending for beating the game fast enough, not the 100% one.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Solkia-kun

[blackherox]

This topic is always and I'm curious as to the cause an effect relationship here.

Would there really be a significant backlash from the supposed ''white straight gamers'' (and others) if sexulaization of females in general media was reduced or is just something that companies/developers take advantange off to better sell their product and out-compete their competitors?.

Or is this just about raising awareness, and then life goes on?