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Dear Internet: Grow Up


SuperStingray

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All the threats and whatever I'd hardly call 'criticism' and that sort of stuff just CANNOT be defended. If someone had brought up their criticism in a legitimate manner that wasn't all "DIE BITCH I GUN RAEP U" like the internet tends to do I would be okay with it really. Can't stop people from disagreeing or stop criticism on any form of art really and this is no different. But the matter is the internet likes to hide behind its anonymity and treat other people like shit. I think that those type of people really need to grow up because it is pretty much schoolyard bullying and it needs to stop :/. The mob mentality can be really dangerous.

On the actual topic of sexism and stuff in the media, I should probably shut my mouth because I'm pretttttyyyyy sure I'm guilty of drawing 'dem ladies haha. pleasedon'tkillme. Since I primarily find myself surrounded more in the comics community, I'm in the camp that I see a lot of really good woman-made comics portraying women in a light they want to be seen in, as well as other initiatives of the like being started and I think it's fantastic and I do support it 100%. I also think its fantastic to be talking about this sort of stuff just because it gets discussion going and people thinking of new things. For me, I just draw what I like to and its not like I signed any contract/nor are getting payed by anyone to draw, so if it gets me some heat and criticism over it it's all fair game otherwise I'd be the world's biggest hypocrite haha.

The only thing I dislike about any of these arguments is how stupid and aggressive people can get towards eachother. Keeping a civil, level head would be nice. Thankfully it doesn't ever seem to get that heated here, but tumblr is a different story altogether (though tumblr gets really mad at everything so they're more like the exception than the rule)

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For example, with that Samus graphic up there.

There's two possibilities for the point of this image:

1. Reward the player for 100% completion with a short scene of high quality art in which we get to see a nice shot of Samus' butt.

2. Reward the player for 100% completion with a short scene of high quality art.

To be honest, I wouldn't be that surprised if it were 1. In Super Metroid, the ending screen is different depending on how fast you completed the game. The sooner you do it, the fewer clothes she's wearing by the time it's all over.

But like other people have mentioned, while it definitely isn't EQUAL, this happens with male characters too. It's less about objectifying women (though this definitely DOES happen a lot, believe me) and more about creating a fantasy character. Whether it's blatantly sexual or not, society is obsessed with image, and both male and female characters are made to look like ideal beautiful people. Videogames mostly being aimed at men/boys is obviously part of it, but can we say the same about movies that do it too?

But yeah, there is definitely a lot of sexism, and it's dumb.

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Oh, yes, seconding Jade. She's a fantastic example of a non-sexualised female protagonist who is actually a solid character.

Women in comic books being sexualized is also a huge problem, I mean, good grief. Just look at Power Girl.

Concerning the Zero Suit... Considering it's a futuristic bodysuit, it would be pretty damn difficult to design one that seems both practical and comfortable without looking, well, 'sexy'. Male or female, skintight bodysuits are common in fiction. That being said, The Boss from MGS3 pulls it off quite well.

Hell, The Boss in general is a good example of a non-sexualised character. She's 42 years old as of MGS3, but she's still somewhat attractive, but doesn't show off much skin till near the end of the game, but that's because she wanted to show Naked Snake the scars she gained from giving birth back in WWII... On the battlefield, no less. She's regarded as one of the biggest badasses of the series, if not THE biggest badass, and is the mentor of Naked Snake, kicking his ass multiple times in the game before their final encounter. And even when she zips open her sneaking suit, it's not very sexy, really, for some reason, just my opinion, probably, but still. She's a proud, no-nonsense soldier who doesn't hold back, and ultimately gave her life to protect the world from nuclear war. There's plenty of tragedy involved, and her worldviews are ultimately what steer the entire plot of the series afterwards.

Edited by Masaru Daimon
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btw Jez, that isn't the 100% completion art. It's just an in-game art piece.

https://encrypted-tb...aRCm1xW9A-cHK02

This is the 100% ending piece.

Weirdly I actually find the other one sexier. =B They ruined the butt.

I wish I had something productive and feminist to add to the discussion with that comment but nope.

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I don't think the line is as abstract as people are trying to make it out to be.

Are we selling a characters looks or not?

If so, are we selling them in a sexual manner?

With Samus, I think part of her appeal is the whole 'under her suit she's really a sexy blonde in a skin tight body suit'. The fact of the matter is every review of her character I watched when brawl was being released made mention of her looks.

And while personally I'm not a huge fan of fan service and 'the beautiful people', I don't think it's something that 100% has to go away.

I do think the problem is when it's the status quo, like it is for women in the media. It simply breeds a feeling that women are there to please and cater to the men who are consuming the product, and that if they're not doing that job they have no place being there.

.....which to me doesn't seem like it makes such quite a large leap to men behaving in this manner to real women, such as with comments demeaning them for not conforming to what they want (tits or GTFO) or focusing on the what is supposedly importent (such as comments on said persons attractiveness or that of a sexual nature).

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I do think the problem is when it's the status quo, like it is for women in the media. It simply breeds a feeling that women are there to please and cater to the men who are consuming the product, and that if they're not doing that job they have no place being there.

.....which to me doesn't seem like it makes such quite a large leap to men behaving in this manner to real women, such as with comments demeaning them for not conforming to what they want (tits or GTFO) or focusing on the what is supposedly importent (such as comments on said persons attractiveness or that of a sexual nature).

What I'm curious to know would there really be a significant backlash from men if sexulaization of females in general media was reduced or is just something that companies/developers (and in fact the media) take advantange off to better sell their product and out-compete their competitors?

To the latter point I agree, but to add I also think then when the media and arguably society portray men as being ''only think of one thing/sex predeators/etc etc'' then chances are a significant amount will believe it.

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But like other people have mentioned, while it definitely isn't EQUAL, this happens with male characters too. It's less about objectifying women (though this definitely DOES happen a lot, believe me) and more about creating a fantasy character. Whether it's blatantly sexual or not, society is obsessed with image, and both male and female characters are made to look like ideal beautiful people.
The way I've heard it is, male characters are typically fantasies for men. Female characters are typically...also fantasies for men.

What I'm curious to know would there really be a significant backlash from men if sexulaization of females in general media was reduced or is just something that companies/developers (and in fact the media) take advantange off to better sell their product and out-compete their competitors?
If they did it quietly, I don't think there would be much vocal backlash. But, a lot of advertising and appealing to (potential) customers doesn't exist entirely on the conscious level. Even if no one stood up and shouted "hey where'd all the sexy ladies go???" I wouldn't be surprised if it did have an effect on sales.
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If they did it quietly, I don't think there would be much vocal backlash. But, a lot of advertising and appealing to (potential) customers doesn't exist entirely on the conscious level. Even if no one stood up and shouted "hey where'd all the sexy ladies go???" I wouldn't be surprised if it did have an effect on sales.

Oh I agree it have a a degree of an effect on the sales initially. I just don't think that there'd be such a severe backlash as people would believe. But given the competetitve nature of the age we live in that is moot

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Okay, wow. There's one question I've asked twice now and with amazing ninja-like reflexes, absolutely everyone has succesfully ignored it while focusing on whether or not Samus is a sex symbol or just how much fanservice is in those 100% images.

Here's the question:

Would the video gaming community be as relaxed about the fanservice rewards if the protagonist of the Metroid series was a man - a man who was increasingly undressed and/or showing off his physique depending on the skill of the player?

I like the fanservice. I want fanservice in my electronic entertainment gadgets. What I'm asking is if it's really as one-sided as it seems.

EDIT: This is a bit of a dick post from me. Sorry to seem like I'm dismissing all the other excellent arguments - this is really great stuff. Especially...(Arrafay, really?) Pelly's great points.

Edited by Grumpy Old Guy
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Okay, wow. There's one question I've asked twice now and with amazing ninja-like reflexes, absolutely everyone has succesfully ignored it while focusing on whether or not Samus is a sex symbol or just how much fanservice is in those 100% images.

Here's the question:

Would the video gaming community be as relaxed about the fanservice rewards if the protagonist of the Metroid series was a man - a man who was increasingly undressed and/or showing off his physique depending on the skill of the player?

I like the fanservice. I want fanservice in my electronic entertainment gadgets. What I'm asking is if it's really as one-sided as it seems.

I'd probably just shut the game off after I've seen my percentage and not give a shit about the picture. Just like I do with Metroid.

But the gaming comunity as a whole would be more focused on it being a Metroid ripoff than anything regarding genders.

Edited by Solkia-kun
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Honestly I'd be okay with it, wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

That's my answer to your super bolded question.

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Okay, wow. There's one question I've asked twice now and with amazing ninja-like reflexes, absolutely everyone has succesfully ignored it while focusing on whether or not Samus is a sex symbol or just how much fanservice is in those 100% images.

Here's the question:

Would the video gaming community be as relaxed about the fanservice rewards if the protagonist of the Metroid series was a man - a man who was increasingly undressed and/or showing off his physique depending on the skill of the player?

I like the fanservice. I want fanservice in my electronic entertainment gadgets. What I'm asking is if it's really as one-sided as it seems.

EDIT: This is a bit of a dick post from me. Sorry to seem like I'm dismissing all the other excellent arguments - this is really great stuff. Especially...(Arrafay, really?) Pelly's great points.

They'd mock it and say it's weird. It'd be the equivalent of that ending to Dead or Alive (or was it Tekken) with the huge sexy men in the thongs.

Edit: Here it is.

Edited by VisionaryBlur
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If you are going to criticize the presentation of Catwoman in Arkham City and then uphold the presentation of Lara Croft and Samus,

Woah, hold on a second man. I never said anything concerning Catwoman as a character. I like Catwoman, and, personally speaking, find her more interesting than both Samus and Lara. Ignoring some of the recent titles, the only thing 'offensive' about the later two -once you take away any sexualisation- is that they fall into the generic "rawr I'm a chick and can kick your butt" cliche; and once you take away the gender element, they're your typical, cool video game heroes. There's nothing particularly wrong with that. I just personally find Catwoman more appealing to a narrative.

I was by no means criticising the character, but rather, the trend around the character. I think there's a time and place for your Catwomen and what-have-you. The problem isn't that characters like her exist, it's that a majority of fictional women characters tend to fall exclusively into that same category. When most of your female comic book and video game characters revolve around sex appeal, it says a lot about what society feels is the proper portrayal and place for women. And, quite frankly, what it says is just plain sad.

Edited by BlazingTales
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I imagine either it would be found funny or no one would really care? But I can't really say. Personally, I don't see why there's a need for either. I mean, fan service can be fun but it's never necessary and I don't think you'd lose anything if it wasn't present because it doesn't exactly add anything. Also, generally speaking women are not as aroused by images as men are, and it has been researched into a few times. Though obviously fan service isn't all about being a turn-on in a porn-esque way.

If I was going to be given any kind of art-reward for finishing a game then I'd like it to be something awesome and artistic, not just fan service.

Edited by Mollfie
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Lipstick feminism. Is it wrong for attractive woman to use and display what makes her feel empowered? That is what Catwoman does. In fact, it is outright stated in her biography and Hugo Strange's interview with her in Arkham City. Hell, all of the female characters do this in Arkham City(except Harley) and they are women to not be trifled with at all. Shit, we are talking about a character that was made in the 50s when women were delegated to the houses and kitchen on mere expectation. Catwoman, in the game, distrusts men and uses sex appeal to get her way. You can watch her flirt with Two Face to get out of the life and death situation or flirt with Mr. Freeze to convince him to rob a place. Hell, all of her interactions with Batman, the man she supposedly loves, shows annoyance with him and how he meddles in her affairs. At least Catwoman has a justification(And if what Batman is wearing counts as bulletproof body armor then Catwoman is wearing it too) unlike Lara Croft who was regularly skimpy and skantily clad for the sake of prying eyes who rather not look at a guy's ass for extended periods of time. Sure, I would levy at lipstick feminism that the whole idea of feminism is meant to achieve parity with men and this would be a no fucking way. But they have a point. Why is it wrong that a woman can't dress a certain way or be depicted a certain way without being labeled as sexualization?

Then we have the utility feminist, who believe that beauty is a construct of the patriarchy to marginalize what a woman should desire to be and attack the lipstick ones as patriarchial puppets. If i can choose a video game champion for this cause, it would be Faith from Mirror's Edge. Can't use Jade because she is obviousily wearing make-up. Faith's appearance or her being a woman is never brought up. You could just as easily think you are playing a man if not for her grunting everytime she gets shot(and a very non-sexual way) or Merc's chattering. She is not in any real gender role. I agree with the UFs more than the other. But if this is a war on attractiveness, then we will be here all day and that opens a whole nother can of worms such as, exactly how they are supposed to be(which really means, how do women want other female characters to be portrayed) and what are they supposed to wear(which compartimentalizes different cultures view on sexuality and lends to ethnocentricism of the sort).

This paragraph is my opinion and you obviously know that it is my opinion so I should not have to re-iterate that it is my opinion, but I am anyways for the sake of redundancy. When it comes to media representation, it comes down to, "How are they acting in the context of the overall world and how others act around her?" If she is constantly victimized all the time, it really does not matter what she is wearing during the victimization as Samus, in Other M, was in full armour as the story "humanized" her. If she is walking "sex on the stick," and that is all she contributes to anything and her being objectified has no justification for it, then it is just as bad as the former. Lara Croft, as I already stated, was nothing but that. What was her reason of wearing a tanktop and short shorts in the middle of desert or intention of going to such unihabited places? She is a blank slate with no definite characterization and her actions do not give her any substantial characterization. She shoots and steals things. Catwoman ,who pretty much does the same thing, wears slightly more clothes than Lara Croft(not saying much), and exudes her sexuality just as much as her, is handled a lot better than Lara. Difference being is that the character is deliberately using her sex appeal to her advantage amongst the males prying on her, which is not wrong according to one school of feminist thought. If she is constantly victimized and sexualized at the same time, then we have a Hostel movie and everyone should feel bad with the mere association.

There is a fine line. Is this particular debate silly as hell? Why in the hell are we focusing on how a character is dressed or acts and then making a massive fuss over it? This is the equivalent of me bitching everytime Tyler Perry releases a film or every time a black character is acting a certain way. It is superficial and an existential debate that really is not a problem in the tangible world and should not be a focus on the debate when it comes to misogyny. Women are paid less than man, women are victimized more than men, women are seen as inferior to men in the system of meritocracy that our society adheres to. Where is that? Don't you dare say that how they are portrayed is makes those problems. It has nothing to do with media representation other than men are in these positions of power disproportionately compared to women. As more and more enter the power positions, we will see true equality. Although the physical representation might not mean much(BET pretty much killed whatever hope I had of economic black nationalism), it is something that should be strode for before we deal with the messiness of this particular debate.

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Well I think like every problem society faces and blames the idea they only way to minimize it or get rid of it, starts at the home. Why do I say this? As someone that chose to be in the media as a career (journalism) it's not like we were born in a special building and the doctors were like "this person will make video games degrading women this other baby races, those three over there will write unbalanced news stories with prejudices". We all came from homes and communities the same as yours, which means the media is going to share the same ideas as society. In other words the media is a reflection of society.

I mean how many times have you heard, "she got pregnant because she was being a slut". I heard that so many times, in fact I have even seen that comment here in SSMB by some members that have posted in this same thread. Did a woman who got pregnant either in her teens or someone that was older but was not marry a slut? Of course NOT. Maybe you can argue it was not smart, but is it wrong for either a woman or a man to have have sex with multiple partners. I am of the opinion that of course not, as long as they are being responsible. I have a lot of female friends that got pregnant and yes they agree that it was at not at the right time but have to be able to improve themselves in order to have a better life for their offspring and themselves.

How does this relate to the media? Well what I just said above, recently there have been more positive portrayals of single woman that got pregnant, but even then the portrayal of "they got pregnant because they were

promiscuous and whores" still a more influential stereotype that gets more air time because that is the general idea society has.

I mean there is nothing wrong for a man to have some "macho" qualities and some girls to have some "girly girl" qualities as long as they don't take them to the extreme. A man can be this tough, strong guy but also be compassionate, understanding, and sensible. A woman can be delicate, sexy, pretty, fashionable but also be tough, smart, and strong.

I think as a society we really have to look at our own selves and see what is wrong with us. For example someone that gets bullied in real life usually starts to bully someone on the internet and called someone the same names he/she got called for. Sometimes you have to be the bigger man and not do the same things.

Before I went out with my girlfriend, she told me one time she went with a friend to play in a smash bros. tournament. She does not look like the stereotypical image of a girl that plays video games in fact quite the opposite. She said that the guys there were just being jerks and assholes but she didn't say anything. You know what she did? She won the tournament, got up, and left. She showed them that a girl can be as good and better than a guy (then everybody try to call her but that is when I swooped in like a hawk and went out with her).

So in retrospect I think we do need people out there showing that there is something wrong and well even though this sucks with time the ideas we have will change for the better. Because if we can hope that then there is really no future for our society.

P.S. sorry for the long post and sorry if you didn't understand my writing or what I was trying to say (I'm in my cell and it sucks writing in it)

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The way I've heard it is, male characters are typically fantasies for men. Female characters are typically...also fantasies for men.

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Why in the hell are we focusing on how a character is dressed or acts and then making a massive fuss over it? ... It is superficial and an existential debate that really is not a problem in the tangible world and should not be a focus on the debate when it comes to misogyny. Women are paid less than man, women are victimized more than men, women are seen as inferior to men in the system of meritocracy that our society adheres to. Where is that? Don't you dare say that how they are portrayed is makes those problems. It has nothing to do with media representation other than men are in these positions of power disproportionately compared to women. As more and more enter the power positions, we will see true equality. Although the physical representation might not mean much(BET pretty much killed whatever hope I had of economic black nationalism), it is something that should be strode for before we deal with the messiness of this particular debate.

Edited by Mollfie
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But turbojet does raise an important point, in that one woman's sexism/oppression/objectification is another woman's freedom (for lack of a better word).

I recall a couple years ago, when some European country (I think France) was enacting legislation to ban Burqas and similar clothing. One of the justifications used to support it was because such clothing was sexist against women, because it prevented them from expressing themselves (presumably as Western women do). And the obvious counter was that many women of Islamic bacground liked wearing those kinds of things, because all banning it would do is force Islamic women to conform to Western ideals of sexism (skimpy clothing and bras and gender-based designs and idealized body proportions and constantly being eye-banged by men and so on) whereas the clothing that they wore allowed them to not have to worry about any of that.

And in that way, I think the Catwoman thing that turbojet keeps mentioning absolutely applies. Because while it is most likely just a pretext to have a main character dress up in skintight clothes and make sexual comments towards the other characters (and the reader), it is still a valid justification when most characters don't get any whatsoever.

Edited by Tornado
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Look. We are having a discourse about sexism in videogames amongst men and women like adults!

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The thing about that is, Catwoman isn't a real person. And she is, I assume, most often written by men. I'm not going to say that this can't be done both honestly and well, but it's really easy for it to go wrong and have a guy who's just using "Strong Female Character!!!" as an excuse for T&A.

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So women write,draw, and exhibit female characters not as sexualized as male writers?

Just saying because you already pointed out the men make male characters as their fantasy. Whose to say that a woman has not done the same and has resulted in the same depiction.

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Women are not exempt from depicting sexualization and even sexism in media (seriously, one of the most offensively idiotic manga I've ever read was actually by a female artist, which shocked me since it presented an abusive dominating relationship to be a romantic, admirable one), but having way more female writers and directors would help a whole lot and it'd be a step closer to better representation of women. I honestly can't think of any female directors off the top of my head compared to all the famous male ones, same applies to creators of work in general.

I think people of all genders need to be aware of stuff like gender portrayal, I know a lot of women aren't and I think they ought to.

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I hope you brought a barf bag, then. This goes a step further than that. Not only does there exist a community where people have the utter gall to speak that kind of thing to female gamers face to face, in public, but they even try to justify it by saying - and I really must emphasise that I'm not making this up - that it's part of the fighting game culture, and that it wouldn't be the fighting community without sexism.

Ummm, no. I know whom you are talking about and he doesn't speak for the whole community... he is just a sad human-being himself. What is all this "they" talk.

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