Dear Internet: Grow Up

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's less blatant in the fact that most people will not naturally go to Rayman Origins as the first example of sexism in games, preferring more obvious fish instead.

And all of her examples appear valid even on paper. The fact that her criticisms aren't even trying to be met with reasoned rebuttals citing content from the games themselves, but rather "she sounds nitpicky so she probably is" screams of people getting overly defensive and thus turning a blind eye to a problem because they're not part of the social group it affects.

But Bastion is rather minimalist in it's characters and none of them have a lot of depth anymore than each other, so calling out the one female character in the game as being just the female comes across as nitpicking. If you changed her to a little boy instead and do nothing else, Anita probably wouldn't have bothered calling it out.

Then there's Assassin's Creed. This being a work meant to tell things with historical accuracy (with some very liberal storytelling, I know), it's far from the wisest choice to call out. This also considering that one of the female characters happen to be a technician for the Animus, another being a double agent for the Templars and Assassins, along with the historical characters in the past, it makes one wonder why in the world is this even an example. It's not meant to be a series that show women in any negative portrayal, it's a retelling of historical events. And admittedly, society has had rather sexist views on women in the past, but that doesn't mean that AC should forgo how women were presented in the past in favor of a more modern portrayal of them compared to how they actually were.

Well I've never heard of Gravity Rush. Let's GIS the game and...

uh...

hm...

Oh wow...nevermind then.

But aren't the assassins fictional? Why does a fictional group, and one that (to my limited knowledge of the series) is some secret underground organization that doesn't follow the rules of the dominant society, bound to follow the same sexist practices?

Uh yes and no. The assassin's were a real group based of the Hassasshin sect back in the middle ages. Assassin's Creed goes with that and then broaden's it across various parts of the world and turned it into a secret organization at war with another secret organization.

Also, this goes without saying that Assassin's Creed also makes note of the women who defy the traditional view of how women should act in the past, as there were obvious women who did things a woman wasn't expected to do.

Edited July 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

Are you implying I implied it wasn't?

You said that you cannot make an argument against the Assassin's Creed games' lack of female characters because they take place in a historical era that was highly patriarchal, as if western society has somehow become post-patriarchal.

Furthermore, the analogy heavily misguided. Whilst women have been a social minority throughout history, more so in the Medieval and Renaissance eras in which the series mainly takes place, this injustice does not prevent writers from writing any period female characters well; there is no physical inhibition with that like your paraplegic example......... :|

[Diogenes]

It's not meant to be a series that show women in any negative portrayal,

That doesn't mean its exempt from criticism.

[Nepenthe]

And admittedly, society has had rather sexist views on women in the past, but that doesn't mean that AC should forgo how women were presented in the past in favor of a more modern portrayal of them compared to how they actually were.

It is not impossible to write female period characters well while also recognizing the fact that bigotry has existed throughout history. Disney actually did it with The Princess and the Frog, as mild as the scene was. I honestly don't know why the time period is an excuse. Women didn't suddenly become full-fledged human beings when we got the right to vote or something. xP

[SuperStingray]

You said that you cannot make an argument against the Assassin's Creed games' lack of female characters because they take place in a historical era that was highly patriarchal, as if western society has somehow become post-patriarchal.

Isn't Renaissance Italy a western culture?

Furthermore, the analogy heavily misguided. Whilst women have been a social minority throughout history, more so in the Medieval and Renaissance eras in which the series mainly takes place, this injustice does not prevent writers from writing any period female characters well; there is no physical inhibition with that like your paraplegic example......... :|

They WERE written well, yet she argues that they they're not because of how that setting worked, that's the problem.

Edited July 8, 2012 by SuperStingray

[Tornado]

I've always found the idea of treating something that lacks female characters in lead roles as being sexist because of it to be kind of a joke, honestly.

[Nepenthe]

Isn't Renaissance Italy a western culture?

Yes it is.... why?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That doesn't mean its exempt from criticism.

So you're going to criticize a work for presenting how women actually were in the past for being historically accurate? Or what are you criticizing exactly?

It is not impossible to write female period characters well while also recognizing the fact that bigotry has existed throughout history.

I never said it was, and if anything Caterina Sforza - a real life person and actual character in Assassin's Creed - is an example of a female character in an age where bigotry exists is defying such bigotry.

Women didn't suddenly become full-fledged human beings when we got the right to vote or something. xP

Okay, knock it off, Nepenthe. You know that's not what I'm implying.

I'm not saying that fiction shouldn't portray women as less than human beings because it happened in the past, I'm saying that a plot is retelling a story that happens to be an accurate event it's not exactly misogynistic of itself (the plot that is, not the historical event).

It's like telling a historical event while treating women in the Victorian era as though they've always had freedoms equal to men and never had to fight for it when in reality they did not before feminism fought for them to be treated as human beings.

Edited July 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SuperStingray]

Yes it is.... why?

So why were you telling me that I was calling western cultures non-patriarchal when I was specifically talking about how one was?

[Nepenthe]

You've completely missed her point. She is not advocating that the writers treat the period women characters with the same social freedoms I enjoy now and break historical accuracy, rather that not either be unnecessarily sexualized or just throwaway, useless female characters whose gender is the most notable thing about them. The time period has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this can be done.

So why were you telling me that I was calling western cultures non-patriarchal when I was specifically talking about how one was?

You made a logical distinction between 14th through 17th century Italy and modern western society by saying it made no sense to bash the female characters in the Assassin's Creed games because the former was a highly and obviously patriarchal society. My rebuttal is that society in our time is still patriarchal, thus the era does not logically prevent criticism anyway. The implication is implicit in what you said.

This also does not excuse the erronous analogy you made concerning potential NFL paraplegic players.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You've completely missed her point. She is not advocating that the writers treat the period women characters with the same social freedoms I enjoy now and break historical accuracy, rather that not either be unnecessarily sexualized or just throwaway, useless female characters whose gender is the most notable thing about them. The time period has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this can be done.

Which is funny, because she didn't say ANYTHING about the women in Assassin's Creed other than she had a problem with it. She never told us what those problems were, and considering her points for the other games like Bastion's character Zia, sexualization might not have even been what she was going to talk about.

Even more, the female characters in Assassin's Creed aren't sexualized, aren't throwaway, are not useless, and does more to note women other than them being women. If anything, despite the time period, it both plays it straight and averts the gender roles expected.

Want me to go down the list? I've already explained Lucy, Caterina, and Rebecca's roles in the games. In fact, the only thing in Assassin's Creed you could call out would be the prostitution that was a historical mention of one of the ways women in during the Renaissance could actually earn a living. Now is it that supposedly a bad thing to have in the game?

Edited July 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tornado]

You've completely missed her point.

She didn't make one. She said "I have a problem with Assassin's Creed, I'm not going to bother explaining it now, and I hope finally (emphasis hers) making a female advance the plot will fix them."

[Diogenes]

So you're going to criticize a work that present how women actually were in the past for being historically accurate? Or what are you criticizing exactly?

I don't know the series well enough to say what, if anything, is worthy of criticism. But just because a series isn't trying to portray women negatively doesn't mean it's succeeding at not doing so.

I'm not saying that fiction shouldn't portray women as less than human beings because it happened in the past, I'm saying that considering a plot is retelling a story that happens to be an accurate event it's not exactly misogynistic.

Again, I really know almost nothing about AC, so this is a legitimate question: how much of it is actually an accurate retelling, and how much of it has been tweaked, exaggerated, or even simply made up?

[Nepenthe]

She didn't make one. She said "I have a problem with Assassin's Creed, I'm not going to bother explaining it now, and I hope finally (emphasis hers) making a female advance the plot will fix them."

I will concede that I made assumptions about what her problems with the women in Assassin's Creed are; I was merely extrapolating the issues she's had with other examples as the problem she's had here.

However, I don't back down from silliness of the assumption that's been made that she wants to forego the historical accuracy of the series for the sake of writing empowered female characters that don't fit, much less that I'm still confused on how CSS and Stingray extrapolated that from her statement when she mentions nothing about the period the game takes place in as well. On this point, we should wait when she does have time to over her complaints in detail.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't know the series well enough to say what, if anything, is worthy of criticism. But just because a series isn't trying to portray women negatively doesn't mean it's succeeding at not doing so.

But how is it trying to portray women negatively when that's what they actually did in the past and it's being retold as such?

Again, I really know almost nothing about AC, so this is a legitimate question: how much of it is actually an accurate retelling, and how much of it has been tweaked, exaggerated, or even simply made up?

Kinda hard to say in one post. For the most part, almost ALL of the events that go on are actual events that happened such as the Crusades, the Pazzi Conspiracy, the Rodrigo Borgia - AC2 main villian - becoming the Pope, Cesare Borgia's takeover of Roma. Then there's the tweaks and exaggerations of The Ones who Came Before, which are the Gods and Goddesses who were the ones who ruled earth such as Minerva, Jupiter, and Juno the Roman Gods and Goddesses.

The made up stuff is even hard to say, because your character takes part in some of those events, but the character himself is made up. Along with the Artifacts of Eden being made up, but based on mythology. Some other characters are made up, but they also interact with characters who actually existed, such as Niccolo Machiavelli, Leonardo da Vinci, and Prince Suleman.

It would be easier to see for yourself if you played it instead of having me explain the thing to you honestly.

However, I don't back down from silliness of the assumption that's been made that she wants to forego the historical accuracy of the series for the sake of writing empowered female characters that don't fit, much less that I'm still confused on how CSS and Stingray extrapolated that from her statement when she mentions nothing about the period the game takes place in as well. On this point, we should wait when she does have time to over her complaints in detail.

That's...not even what I'm saying, and if anything Caterina Sforza is an example of an empowered female character in a work of fiction who existed in real life. I even went further in pointing out how despite restrictions, there are historical women who have defied the roles that were given to them and Assassin's Creed makes note of that when it can, in addition to characters who aren't the least bit weak as characters in the series.

Basically, she says that she's happy that AC: Liberation will have a female in a lead role and sees that as a good thing where as she dislikes how the females, such as Lucy Stillman, Rebecca Crane, Caterina Sforza, and Claudia Auditore da Firenze, and various other female characters are presented. These are characters who are far from being protrayed as weak, incompetent, sexualized, or anything negative, and she somehow has a problem with it without telling us what that problem is, all while liking a female protagonist in the lead role. So I'm tempted to think that she's implying that there's a problem with the female characters not being in the lead role.

Edited July 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

But how is it trying to portray women negatively when that's what they actually did in the past and it's being retold as such?

Shit, man, how many times am I going to have to say it? I barely know anything about AC, so I AM NOT ACCUSING IT OF ANYTHING. All I'm saying there is, the fact that someone did not consciously intend to portray women negatively, does not mean that they did not portray women negatively. That's the big problem with sexism (and all those other -isms), that it gets so ingrained and normalized that people don't even realize they're doing something wrong. And I am not leveling this as a specific accusation against AC or the people responsible for the series; I am saying that excuse does not work on anything.

The made up stuff is even hard to say, because your character takes part in some of those events, but the character himself is made up.

Okay, so, the character you play as is made up, and the organization he belongs to has diverged wildly from the real-world thing that inspired it, right? So...is there any reason the assassins have to be as sexist as mainstream society? Is there any reason there can't be female assassins?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shit, man, how many times am I going to have to say it? I barely know anything about AC, so I AM NOT ACCUSING IT OF ANYTHING. All I'm saying there is, the fact that someone did not consciously intend to portray women negatively, does not mean that they did not portray women negatively. That's the big problem with sexism (and all those other -isms), that it gets so ingrained and normalized that people don't even realize they're doing something wrong. And I am not leveling this as a specific accusation against AC or the people responsible for the series; I am saying that excuse does not work on anything.

Dude, I know you haven't played it, but I'm saying where is the criticism of sexism in a work where such sexism is what actually happened?

Let's not talk about AC as my point. Let's say there is a event that happened in the Victorian era. In the Victorian era, a woman could be beaten by her husband for infidelity, whereas a man could get away with it easier. On top of that, a woman was paid less, and could not own property. If a work was set in the Victorian era and had these various details, is it being sexist for being historically accurate? Should it have instead set the work in a Victorian era that reverses these roles or completely does away with them so that it isn't seen as sexist despite trying to be historically accurate?

Okay, so, the character you play as is made up, and the organization he belongs to has diverged wildly from the real-world thing that inspired it, right? So...is there any reason the assassins have to be as sexist as mainstream society? Is there any reason there can't be female assassins?

The Assassin's (and the Templars, their enemy) are not sexist as the mainstream society and if anything they defy it as there are just as many female assassin's you can recruit as their are male. Claudia Auditore da Firenze, the sister of one of the main characters, is an assassin.

Edited July 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Dude, I know you haven't played it, but I'm saying where is the criticism of sexism in a work where such sexism is what actually happened?

Are...you not reading what I am saying? Look, I'm going to quote this:

It's not meant to be a series that show women in any negative portrayal,

This, right here, is what I am focusing on. It has nothing to do with AC specifically, it has nothing to do with anything regarding being based on history, that is entirely irrelevant to what I am trying to say here. The fact that a thing (any thing! Regardless of whether or not it's based on history!) isn't meant to portray women negatively, does not mean it was successful in not portraying women negatively. That someone is not trying to be sexist (or is trying not to be sexist) doesn't mean they are automatically not being sexist. The question of whether or not the thing is sexist is still on the table, saying that they didn't mean for it to be has not moved it at all in either direction.

The Assassin's (and the Templars, their enemy) are not sexist as the mainstream society and if anything they defy it as there are just as many female assassin's you can recruit as their are male. Claudia Auditore da Firenze, the sister of one of the main characters, is an assassin.

Okay, cool. I did not know that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Are...you not reading what I am saying? Look, I'm going to quote this:

This, right here, is what I am focusing on. It has nothing to do with AC specifically, it has nothing to do with anything regarding being based on history, that is entirely irrelevant to what I am trying to say here. The fact that a thing (any thing! Regardless of whether or not it's based on history!) isn't meant to portray women negatively, does not mean it was successful in not portraying women negatively. That someone is not trying to be sexist (or is trying not to be sexist) doesn't mean they are automatically not being sexist. The question of whether or not the thing is sexist is still on the table, saying that they didn't mean for it to be has not moved it at all in either direction.

If you're going to quote that then that has everything to do with AC specifically and being based on history, because that's where I wanted my answer regarding AC being called out in the first place by Anita herself and the reason why I made that point.

We're taking a work of fiction that's putting you in the middle of a historical time period where these sexist values existed and is portraying them accurately regardless. The work itself isn't meaning to be sexist than it is trying to be accurate. It would be like having a work in a setting where African slaves are made to work on a plantation in the Deep South or set in Jim Crow era that's trying to be accurate than it is trying to be racist. Yes, it showing something we find racist/sexist, but are we going to call the work itself racist/sexist despite it being accurate?

This is all the more ironic for AC in the implication it was being called out on. When you take a look at the female characters it has in it's plot, that while it's set in a patriarchal period the characters don't even pay mind to and even defy it. Yet, Anita see a problem with the game while taking exception to the lead female protagonist in AC: Liberation. This is basically where my argument is coming from here.

Edited July 8, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[turbojet]

Want me to go down the list? I've already explained Lucy, Caterina, and Rebecca's roles in the games. In fact, the only thing in Assassin's Creed you could call out would be the prostitution that was a historical mention of one of the ways women in during the Renaissance could actually earn a living. Now is it that supposedly a bad thing to have in the game?

Not just earn a living, but gain freedom and adventure that was without any holds of men. It was liberation and was a desired occupation for women at the time considering their options(nun or housewife). Not just that, but Assassin's Creed strives to be historically accurate so the critic is criticizing not the game, but a time period.

[Pelly <3's U]

Damn I wrote this awesome post before and it got deleted, I guess this is take two ;__;

 

I know that this topic is old, but I'm very frustrated right now and need to vent. So today I got in a bit of kick reading and looking at stuff relating to women's portrayals in media. It started first with a TEDtalk on how how our media affects young boys (and girls) ideas of heroism and gender, and then I found out very late about the great #1reasonwhy movement that was on twitter, and then finally I took a look at this video that was a bit of an overview of what this topic is about. 

 

 

So all good right....well no.

 

Because one horrible, awful tendency of mine is to.......read the comments. 

 

D:

 

And what are the 3 most recent comments on what I considered to be quite a reasonable and well thought out overview of the subject of women being harassed in gaming culture

 

• Zak Dwyer 3 hours ago

  It's called flaming/trolling. There's a reason for the mute button you whores.

  Reply · 
• 

  PoisonDemonOlga 3 hours ago

  Fuck women gamers they can suck my fucking balls.

  Reply · 
• 

  BLUESHYGUY8000 1 day ago

  Does any of these girls know what trolling is!.

 

 

Not to mention the overwhelming majority of the video's ratings are downvotes. 

 

I get that the comments sections are filled with anonymous uninformed people, trolls, immature agitated idiots, etc.....but really. It just sickens me that right now we're basically living in a community and a culture where it's acceptable and normal for women to be harassed for playing games, for working in the games industry, and for having the very nerve to speak out about this. And the very apathy about the issue by so many, that like somehow we are past gender inequality and such, and that we can laugh and condescend the past for how very archaic it was. I have no doubt in my mind the message that people in the future will see when they study our media, which at it's very center is a reflection of our culture.

 

I guess what really bugs me is how I don't even have to dig or try hard to find the bile. I wanted to spend my day being inspired and learning, watching people who want to change things for the better through activism, information, and education. And how easily all this is just dismissed and surrounded by the complete shit. It's like having to constantly wade through sewage and crap just to see something that gives some sort of idea that it's not always going to be the same. It just depresses me how easy it is for anyone who hopes to do something for what they see as positive and meaningful change is just the easy target of all this, and really is almost draining on my passion.

 

It's just a really shitty feeling.

 

And yes I'm far from thinking that this is exclusive to this issue.

 

And I'm also aware that many people don't like Anita Sarkessian for her lack of progress on her kickstrarter project, though this doesn't excuse the fact that she was the subject of abuse and harassment before any of that as well as do anything to diminish the message. 

[Sean]

Why does that video have so many dislikes. God fucking damn. Fucking assholes sometimes I wish the internet would just wipe itself out because I'm really sick of it bringing out the absolute worst in people and seeing all these important issues being shit on all the time.

[Autosaver]

Pelly, you know the forum saves drafts of your posts. Right?

[Pelly <3's U]

Not if you type in the quick reply :c

[Old dead account]

Ugh damn commentators, pathetic like these losers

http://www.hulu.com/watch/284937

 

The world really would be a brighter place if youtube removed and purged its comments section.