Dear Internet: Grow Up

[Kuzu]

...no. Like, not even close.

You know how much male eye candy there is in video games, especially nowadays? I'd say it's almost as much as woman eye-candy, nobody talks about it because that's considered the norm.

 

Sexism most certainly can go both ways, but sexism against woman is so deeply ingrained into society that it's considered normal.

Well isn't that in itself sexist against men? That nobody considers sexism against men because it's also considered normal?

 

I think if men suddenly had to put up with what women put up with, there'd be rioting in the streets. Just look at how ugly some guys get at the mere suggestion that there is something wrong with the way they act.

Well doesn't that already happen when one accuses a man of being sexist against women?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Carbo]

Male power fantasies etc.

Though I really want to ask who thought that bald, bulky space marines are to be considered the status quo of a manly paragon, other than designers (particularly those running Unreal Engine games OOPS) considering it appealing from a design standpoint so they can render every single vein and muscle of Marcus Fenix's steroid juiced throat.

Which is something I think is worth generally bringing up really, as a lot of characters are only designed to push hardware, which are details you get from a bulky build, not necessarily because it's promoting some inherent will to be a big slayer of Greek Titans.

[Nepenthe]

Believe it or not, I don't really care about the "status quo" but I have a difficult time understanding or empathizing with this group of people when this supposed "sexism" doesn't go beyond the female crowd. Maybe it's because I'm not a woman so I don't pay much attention to it, but most the examples of "sexism" basically boiled down to "the objectification of women" and I have to ask; well aren't men just as objectified then, so does sexism only apply when it's the women being objectified or what, because I'm having a hard time understanding.

 

Pelly, I'm not trying to say you don't have a right to be angry or upset at this whole fiasco because the whole vitriol and bigotry behind it is indeed childish and misogynistic, but it makes me wonder would there be this much of an uproar if the genders were reversed.

 

No one denies that men are objectified, but when we look at the actual statistics, social outcomes, and ramifications of objectifying men versus objectifying women, then they're not equatable. Women in media and advertising must ascribe to not only higher standards of idealism than men but impossible standards- bodies with proportions and poses that would signify severe injury and death, as has been pointed out numerous times in several Photoshop controversies. For men to be commonly objectified, it generally only requires that they be physically fit, but even then with new trends in pop culture, we're not even seeing the over-the-top Arnold Schwarzeneggers anymore. Shia LeBeouf, a fairly average-looking skinny guy, has the lead role in one of the most financially successful action series of all time. Now check out the line up of women's action heroes.

 

These constant cultural cliches about what women must be in order to be better individuals has had real world consequences. Statistics don't lie: around 70% of teenage girls come to acquire low self-esteem, self-defeating attitudes, and difficulty socializing in school because we are consciously and subconsciously aware of what the culture wants us to look like and how we don't fit in to that. This is versus 45% of adult western men who are unhappy with their bodies. That's a stark contrast.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Conando]

@Pelly:

 

Yeah, his one about Sarkisian wasn't that well on the point. The one I posted, about "Fake Gamer Girls" talks about the general issue of misogyny in gaming culture better.

[Diogenes]

You know how much male eye candy there is in video games, especially nowadays? I'd say it's almost as much as woman eye-candy, nobody talks about it because that's considered the norm.

In most cases, when men are sexualized, it's still a male power fantasy. Big strong buff dude getting shit done and probably getting the girl. When a women is sexualized, it's usually just to give you a boner. Seriously, where are all these blatant uncomfortably sexualized video game dudes?

Well isn't that in itself sexist against men? That nobody considers sexism against men because it's also considered normal?

Most people don't consider sexism against men because there's vastly less of it. It's not a great situation but it in no way makes the two sides equal.

Well doesn't that already happen when one accuses a man of being sexist against women?

...wait, doesn't what happen?

[Pelly <3's U]

Ragna,

 

The privileged group and minority group in any theory of inequality are not interchangeable. 

 

So the short answer is no, there wouldn't be a problem if the genders were reversed.

 

The thing is, inequality in itself necessarily defines an imbalance, and so you really can't compare two groups on of imbalance on the same scale. 

 

You can however say that because of the imbalance, things are unequal to various degrees...and some of those degrees are not always necessarily what stands right out as BLACK AND WHITE GOOD AND BAD.

 

So like you can have cases in life where men are far more likely than women to get arrested, or believed to be perpetrators of domestic assault  And in some ways you could make the case that this is sexist against men, and that it's brought on by our latent feelings of discrimination or whatever. But when you look at it from the whole perspective you see that it's brought on by the gender inequality and the imbalance of the way we see men and women as a whole, and that it's a part of the system.

 

It doesn't make it ok (just like the system shouldn't excuse sexism again women), but gender inequality obviously is going to have an effect on both sides of the scale. If you happen to stand on the privileged side though, it makes it a lot harder to understand what is the issue with it and why it's important. 

 

@Ralph - ya I saw your video, thanks for the link c: It's another great example of how the culture of gaming is such to be both imbalanced against women and also starting to divide down the lines of 'whose a real gamer/nerd/hardcore' 

Uhg haha

[BlazingTales]

You know how much male eye candy there is in video games, especially nowadays?

Seriously, where are all these blatant uncomfortably sexualized video game dudes?

I believe this is somewhat relevant, so I'm just going to drop this here.

[Phos]

I really hate that video's sensationalist tone.   

[Pelly <3's U]

This is a big question I have.

 

What is sensationalist about it?

 

Like, really.

 

What is sensationalist about exploring how women are treated in the gaming community? 

 

Is it that it's not true, or it's not a big deal, or that's just the way things are?

 

Because I'm not seeing it.

[novelty]

I just realized that nobody here is talking about Portal.

Why do I bring up Portal? The Portal Series defies anything and everything about stereotypical feminine media...

 

Hell, anything Valve makes is right on point for a non-sexualized game.

[Phos]

This is a big question I have.

 

What is sensationalist about it?

 

Like, really.

 

What is sensationalist about exploring how women are treated in the gaming community? 

 

Is it that it's not true, or it's not a big deal, or that's just the way things are?

 

Because I'm not seeing it.

The dramatic close ups of her holding the controller comes to mind.  Mind you I just think this style of shockumentary is just all together annoying.  

 

By the way how long has it been since her kickstarter ended?  What's the scope of this project that we've seen nothing out of it?  It's been eight months.  i also think that it's kind of funny that she doesn't seem to get the point of the Bechdel Test, that it's supposed to be easy to pass and yet so few movies do. 

[Kuzu]

No one denies that men are objectified, but when we look at the actual statistics, social outcomes, and ramifications of objectifying men versus objectifying women, then they're not equatable. Women in media and advertising must ascribe to not only higher standards of idealism than men but impossible standards- bodies with proportions and poses that would signify severe injury and death, as has been pointed out numerous times in several Photoshop controversies. For men to be commonly objectified, it generally only requires that they be physically fit, but even then with new trends in pop culture, we're not even seeing the over-the-top Arnold Schwarzeneggers anymore. Shia LeBeouf, a fairly average-looking skinny guy, has the lead role in one of the most financially successful action series of all time. Now check out the line up of women's action heroes.

 

These constant cultural cliches about what women must be in order to be better individuals has had real world consequences. Statistics don't lie: around 70% of teenage girls come to acquire low self-esteem, self-defeating attitudes, and difficulty socializing in school because we are consciously and subconsciously aware of what the culture wants us to look like and how we don't fit in to that. This is versus 45% of adult western men who are unhappy with their bodies. That's a stark contrast.

I never said the two sides are equal because you're right, women are generally held to a higher standard as far as media goes than men, but isn't that treating the male gender as expendable or just not as special as women? There probably is a few movies out there with a female action hero protagonist, but I don't think anyone really pays any mind because we're so caught up with men getting the lead roles. Just because the two sides are unequal doesn't make either side lesser or more deserving of sympathy.

 

In most cases, when men are sexualized, it's still a male power fantasy. Big strong buff dude getting shit done and probably getting the girl. When a women is sexualized, it's usually just to give you a boner.

Well other than being a male power fantasy, isn't that what most women find attractive as far as men goes, hence the terms like "hunk" exist, and this

 

Seriously, where are all these blatant uncomfortably sexualized video game dudes?

Well there's Duke Nukem for starters, a masculine "manly man" portrayed as the most badass person and the only one who gets anything done in his series.

 

 

Most people don't consider sexism against men because there's vastly less of it. It's not a great situation but it in no way makes the two sides equal.

Never said it does, but like I told Nepenthe, I don't really think that's much of an excuse to ignore it completely.

 

Ragna,

 

The privileged group and minority group in any theory of inequality are not interchangeable. 

 

So the short answer is no, there wouldn't be a problem if the genders were reversed.

 

The thing is, inequality in itself necessarily defines an imbalance, and so you really can't compare two groups on of imbalance on the same scale. 

 

You can however say that because of the imbalance, things are unequal to various degrees...and some of those degrees are not always necessarily what stands right out as BLACK AND WHITE GOOD AND BAD.

 

So like you can have cases in life where men are far more likely than women to get arrested, or believed to be perpetrators of domestic assault  And in some ways you could make the case that this is sexist against men, and that it's brought on by our latent feelings of discrimination or whatever. But when you look at it from the whole perspective you see that it's brought on by the gender inequality and the imbalance of the way we see men and women as a whole, and that it's a part of the system.

 

It doesn't make it ok (just like the system shouldn't excuse sexism again women), but gender inequality obviously is going to have an effect on both sides of the scale. If you happen to stand on the privileged side though, it makes it a lot harder to understand what is the issue with it and why it's important. 

 

That much I understand, society as a whole generally has social norms that nobody really questions, and that does make for a large imbalance as far as genders go. I'm trying to understand, as a man,  why the plight of women generally gets more attention than if a similar situation was brought up in regards to men. The reasons you stated are generally why I find it highly unlikely there can ever be true equality for both men and women in this , because society as a whole just has certain social norms ingrained in them. I'm not saying it's impossible, but that would require both sides coming together and bringing certain things to attention. And even then, men and women have very different ways of thinking which also influences these types of arguments.

 

I hope this all makes sense, I've never really talked something this controversial before.

[Pelly <3's U]

Cultural norms are normative because we accept them as such. Look at how social norms and views have evolved from the past. Things that were considered absolutely standard in the past are now considered ridiculous, and so to just sit back and say 'well it's ingrained in social norms' is an absolutely ludicrous statement. 

 

Women's issues get more attention because men are a privileged group. I suppose it's also the same reason poor people's plights are generally considered before problems that the rich have (haha yeah right actually). 

 

You're not understanding though that 'a similar situation' can not be brought up with men because it is not a similar situation. That infers a level of equality and a level playing field that we don't have.

 

I have an extremely hard time conceptualizing a man going on to say that he wants to explore issues of men in gaming, in a culture of people that are basically against him, and then having a huge backlash of people threatening to rape and kill him, calling him terrible names and basically trying to silence his views. 

 

I have a hard time believing that there would be some sort of male equivalent of this.

 

 

Because there is no male equivalent.

 

Also Phos, you may want to go back and read some posts, hogfather already brought up that point and I've argued against it. You're not really bringing anything new to the issue, so I don't feel the need to rebuttle it again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That much I understand, society as a whole generally has social norms that nobody really questions, and that does make for a large imbalance as far as genders go. I'm trying to understand, as a man,  why the plight of women generally gets more attention than if a similar situation was brought up in regards to men.

Depends on the plight. But it's mainly because of social expectations; betray the expectation, and it is percieved that there is a social problem with you. This affects both sides, but women are the ones getting the short end of the deal here. Hence why things like rape tend to be treated less seriously when it's female-on-male than it would male-on-female. There's all sorts of variables, such as men, for example, being the primary breadwinners, and therefore being the ones who should have the main say on what goes on. We have in this social mindset that men are suppose to be the leaders, and women the followers, and it's the sort of hierarchy that leads to this imbalance.

 

In short, the one who gets the short end of the deal is the one who is seen as disadvantage and in more need of help than the one who gets the better deal.

 

The reasons you stated are generally why I find it highly unlikely there can ever be true equality for both men and women in this , because society as a whole just has certain social norms ingrained in them. I'm not saying it's impossible, but that would require both sides coming together and bringing certain things to attention. And even then, men and women have very different ways of thinking which also influences these types of arguments.

 

I hope this all makes sense, I've never really talked something this controversial before.

If anything, I'd say it's competition that's being the main influence, men and women trying to get their point of view across, but one isn't seeing the problem while the other feels like they have to play the same game as the other closing their ears to the problem in order to get them to listen.

 

Imagine playing a game of chess, and you start off playing with the usual pieces while the other starts off with 7 queens at the beginning. Kinda hard to play against, isn't it? That's kind of the board game that's being played on here.

 

...and somehow I feel like I shot myself in the foot trying to explain this.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[novelty]

Pelly, There actually is...

 

Why do you think so many people hated bronies at infancy?

 

Why is it that every time a family member tells the truth of his orientation, the family backlashes questioning his masculinity?

 

Why is it that we live in a society where not having a girlfriend is considered the man a "loser"?

 

Tell me why...why would the general public say these things to exploit the male victim's lifestyle?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Pelly, There actually is...

 

Why do you think so many people hated bronies at infancy?

Because they don't want them getting in touch with their feminine-side?

 

Why is it that every time a family member tells the truth of his orientation, the family backlashes questioning his masculinity?

Because of homophobia?

 

Why is it that we live in a society where not having a girlfriend is considered the man a "loser"?

I can understand this much, but at the same time how is that anywhere close to calling a girl a "slut" because of the way she dresses or even because she got a boyfriend someone else doesn't think she needs?

 

Tell me why...why would the general public say these things to exploit the male victim's lifestyle?

Because of them not filling that social expectation that society expects of them. Kind of the same deal with women, but not as offensive and hostile.

 

And these things are much more widespread than it is dealing exclusively with men.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Well other than being a male power fantasy, isn't that what most women find attractive as far as men goes, hence the terms like "hunk" exist, and this commercial

Some might, but it's not universal (see: the comic BlazingTales posted last page). But beyond that, even in the cases where a male character is sexualized, they usually have traits beyond that. They're major characters, they get shit done, they make real and valuable contributions to the plot, they are being cool badasses that guys wish they could be. With female characters, their T-'n-A is often more important than anything else they do (if they do anything else). They exist for men.

Well there's Duke Nukem for starters, a masculine "manly man" portrayed as the most badass person and the only one who gets anything done in his series.

...I think you have misunderstood the question. I'm talking about male characters that are sexualized similar to how female characters often are. Male characters who are objectified. Male characters that exist to be sexy first and foremost. Male characters that make you, as a man, uncomfortable, because they are treated as sex objects rather than people. How many male characters can you think of that wear ridiculously revealing clothing, and where the camera constantly lingers on their ass and package? Because that's practically the default for female characters.

Never said it does, but like I told Nepenthe, I don't really think that's much of an excuse to ignore it completely.

And no one thinks that we should.

I'm trying to understand, as a man,  why the plight of women generally gets more attention than if a similar situation was brought up in regards to men.

Because there isn't a similar situation.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

...I think you have misunderstood the question. I'm talking about male characters that are sexualized similar to how female characters often are. Male characters who are objectified. Male characters that exist to be sexy first and foremost. Male characters that make you, as a man, uncomfortable, because they are treated as sex objects rather than people. How many male characters can you think of that wear ridiculously revealing clothing, and where the camera constantly lingers on their ass and package? Because that's practically the default for female characters.

How many points can I get for mentioning Twilight?

[Pelly <3's U]

Pelly, There actually is...

 

Why do you think so many people hated bronies at infancy?

 

 

Because My Little Ponies is a girl show, a feminine show. And if there's one thing of the few explicit things in our culture when it comes to sexism, it's that feminine and masculine things are not treated with the same amount of respect or regard. 

 

Because the world tends to be divided into boy things, boy things that girls can like, and girl things. Boy things that girls can like are usually what we consider 'neutral', except for the fact when you look at them they are produced almost exclusively with targeting a male audience, appealing to a male audience, and under the assumption that men can't empathize with a main female character/female characters in general.

 

Regular Show is a boy show girls can like, MLP is a girls show. 

Breaking Bad is a boy show girls can like, Desperate Housewives is a girls show.

Batman movies are boys movies girls can like, Catwoman was a girls movie (about her fighting a cosmetic company lol)

American pie is a boy movie girls can like, Mean girls was a girl movie

Disney/pixar movies are boys movies girls can like, Princess movies are girls movies

 

As a women it's ok to like men's stuff because men's stuff is cool, and normal, and awesome but women's stuff is weak, and girly, and gay, and unimportant. 

 

I heard that MLP was the first 'girl's show' that actually was made to be good...unlike the shitty girl's shows that came before it. And do you know what I thought when I watched it? That it was completely average to most other 'girl's shows.' Nothing about it blew my mind.

 

What does blow my mind, and is totally awesome is that we're starting to get to a place where we're seeing men do in fact empathize with female characters. And that cross gender appeal doesn't have to come in the form of aiming towards men and getting women as an orbiting audience. That you can place feminine values and characters in shows and movies and that they can be seen cool or acceptable by both men and women the way masculine values are.

 

Of course there's still a long way to go with this.

 

Why is it that every time a family member tells the truth of his orientation, the family backlashes questioning his masculinity?

 

 

See above, because if you're a man don't you dare be feminine, that's weak and gross.

 

Why is it that we live in a society where not having a girlfriend is considered the man a "loser"?

 

 

We live in a society where all single people are generally ill regarded. Movie's quests are not to go on an adventure or discover yourself, they are about finding someone to love. Yes it sucks that single men are considered losers. It sucks that women's media in general revolves around relationships. 

 

Tell me why...why would the general public say these things to exploit the male victim's lifestyle?

 

 

I don't know what you mean here so I'll just let you clarify if you wish. 

[Phos]

Damn when did this forum's editor become so terrible?

Cultural norms are normative because we accept them as such. Look at how social norms and views have evolved from the past. Things that were considered absolutely standard in the past are now considered ridiculous, and so to just sit back and say 'well it's ingrained in social norms' is an absolutely ludicrous statement. 

 

 

Also Phos, you may want to go back and read some posts, hogfather already brought up that point and I've argued against it. You're not really bringing anything new to the issue, so I don't feel the need to rebuttle it again.

The attention grubbing and failure to produce are entirely related.  All she's doing by appearing in this dumb shockumentary is making your (and my) side of the issue less appealing by promoting it in the most irritating way possible.  

[Pelly <3's U]

Attention grabbing? She was a very small part (like 2-3 minutes) in a long video over the issue......in a long series of debates and discussions over the issue.

 

And what exactly did her failing to produce video content have to do with the issue the attitude of gaming culture and the problems women in the game industry face? It has to do with it because it annoyed you so much that now you just decided to not take the issue seriously because you're annoyed by something that doesn't really have anything to do with the issue?

 

=/

[Nepenthe]

I never said the two sides are equal because you're right, women are generally held to a higher standard as far as media goes than men, but isn't that treating the male gender as expendable or just not as special as women? There probably is a few movies out there with a female action hero protagonist, but I don't think anyone really pays any mind because we're so caught up with men getting the lead roles. Just because the two sides are unequal doesn't make either side lesser or more deserving of sympathy.

To identify with actual statistics and examples that certain problems affect some social groups more than others doesn't undermine the humanity of the privileged group. Of course men aren't expendable, and of course men face certain problems of their own, such as the distrust of them in child care settings, but at the same time, let's not pretend men don't enjoy certain significant advantages as a result of merely being men. I don't say this is done maliciously either, rather it is a natural consequence of living in western society.

To make that more comprehensible, Americans as a whole enjoy certain privileges that some people in Africa don't as a result of just happening to be born American at a time where America is a superpower. Does being born American mean you're rich and care free? No. But you are probably better off than the African child laborer. And pointing out that African child laborers have it worse does not mean every problem in America is suddenly void. It's just perspective.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Badnik Mechanic]

I have an extremely hard time conceptualizing a man going on to say that he wants to explore issues of men in gaming, in a culture of people that are basically against him, and then having a huge backlash of people threatening to rape and kill him, calling him terrible names and basically trying to silence his views.

 

Well wait a moment... aside from the rape line (and even then I'm not sure on that one), how do you know that?

If a male were to make a video in the same way this woman did, only this time focus completely on the male perception and bring up the negatives... then say 'I need $6000 to make a 20 min youtube video' I imagine the abuse they would get would be off the scale and it would be even worse because it breaks conceptions of a male ever doing a study like this.

When it comes to online abuse, especially stuff you get when playing games, unless you know the person, you have very little to go on, it's usually the name/online ID of the person or the sex. And usually every single possible line tied to that is used because it's the easiest way to get attack that person.

Anyone who has played Dead Rising 2 will probably know what I mean when I explain this. Dead Rising 2 has an online vs mode, and it's split into 4 rounds, the game also has a feature I hate, that being 'mics are auto on/not muted.'  So how did I cope with this? I had my headset on and if someone was annoying online, just take my headset off and play in peace.

 

Anyway, one game there was this woman in the game and 2 other guys, she had her mic on and was giving everybody abuse... sexist abuse. However, due to the way that game works, she didn't notice my id until the second round when she was put near me and could see my name on her screen... suddenly she starts giving me racist abuse because my name sounds like a middle eastern fellow (it's not, it's a character from a play), sick of her I said to the other guys 'I really wish there was a kick player option...' When my voice comes over the system and it's a heavy Yorkshire/norther england accent. The abuse changes... to male sexist jokes/punches. Because now she had a 'weakness' to go on. Everything under the sun was said 'bet he's a deadbeat dad' to 'bet he's a loner 17 year old living in his attic,' I'll spare you the jokes at my manhood that were passed in case someone asks for evidence to disprove those alligations. But following my 'comment' to the other players, all she had to go on, was the fact I was a man. So thats what her abuse changed too. And yes, the other guys got the same stuff too.

 

Never in my time playing games online have I ever seen or recieved a message taking the piss because someone's character had a certain hair colour or style or because their character was wearing glasses. But in the real life world, I have seen that, because they're obvious weaknesses a person has which is tied to the person controlling that character.

 

When playing games online, I've had abuse ranging from sexual abuse, threats of violence, threats to come to my house to beat me up (this happened on SSMB once! (I drew him a map to my house... he never did turn up)) and this is because I happened to beat them in a game. So I can't even imagine what sort of abuse of threats a guy would get if he did a video like this only at a male perspective.

[Diogenes]

Well wait a moment... aside from the rape line... how do you know that?

If a male were to make a video in the same way this woman did, only this time focus completely on the male perception and bring up the negatives... then say 'I need $6000 to make a 20 min youtube video' I imagine the abuse they would get would be off the scale and it would be even worse because it breaks conceptions of a male ever doing a study like this.

It's hard to deal in hypotheticals, but I really can't imagine him getting even a fraction of the abuse Sarkeesian has gotten. A lot of eye rolling, a lot of "ha ha fat chance buddy"s, but not an endless stream of venom.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's hard to deal in hypotheticals, but I really can't imagine him getting even a fraction of the abuse Sarkeesian has gotten. A lot of eye rolling, a lot of "ha ha fat chance buddy"s, but not an endless stream of venom.

Er...right.

 

Then I'll have to direct you outside of Gamer's harrassment of Anita and into a protest of those who claim to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0.

 

 

I can even go outside of that and give you a perspective from individual feminist Wendy McElroy if I have to over gender issues.

 

I can easily imagine it happening for either side when a group feels threatened by someone wanting to bring attention to a different perspective. It's one thing to prioritize, but we shouldn't tolerate the things that happened to both Anita and Farrell over the gender issue.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic