Dear Internet: Grow Up

[Pelly <3's U]

I'm sure he would get some kind of abuse, as I've stated before the internet is rife with abuse. Personally, I feel like he would get a lot of people calling him out for coming from a stance of privileged and power. It would probably be alone the lines of the criticism people get when they claim they want a white history month along with a black history month.

 

I pretty much feel like in large ways it'd be ignored, outside of maybe some feminist circles and being made fun of on some forums.

 

Frankly, I don't feel like it's the sort of structural, systematic abuse that goes the other way...the abuse that comes from living in a society that structured against a person and puts them at an inherent disadvantage for being different than what's considered normative. 

 

Regardless, I feel as though I did make a false analogy. Because really, the difference of point, and the cultural relevance, the completely different relationship between the power dynamic of the person vs the group being approached......it's not what I can consider very much moreso than situation-similar. And I guess that was the basis of my point in that in inequality there is no equivalence....of course I feel victim to my own argument D:

 

As far as your insults go, since I obviously can't put myself in your shoes I'll do the best I can.

 

I'm white. I'm very white, and have all the benefits of white privilege. I know there are some people who hate white people in the world. But I know for a fact I don't live in a society where being white is culturally seen as inferior. In fact, being white is absolutely the greatest thing I can imagine based off of the representation that the media and the benefits I get from it, from extremely tangible ones to inferred ones. 

 

So ya a couple people probably hate me, but really...what does it mean?

 

Being called a cracker to me isn't really offensive, it doesn't carry the same meaning as other racially intensive remarks that's for sure. Because it's not a word that reinforces my notion of inferiority, and that the person who's using it is likely ingrained in the culture that says I'm less valuable. 

 

I'm not sure what it feels like to be at the end of jokes that are dismissive of men, but my best guess is looking at it from my privileged groups, like being white and straight. And really, ya it still sucks to be insulted...but it's not comparable if you ask me.

 

Basically what I've been arguing the entire time is the reason why it's any different when someone insults you for being a girl. Right now I'm just repeating my argument basically over and over again, but there's really not much else I can do but extrapolate on the core points. When you are a man and you are insulted in a game, there is a very slim possibility that it's coming from some sort of social discrimination that person has against you, and basically 0% that it's coming from a social indoctrination that you are the out group of this society, the non norm. 

 

When you are a women, this is just not the case.

 

I'm not dismissive of men's issues (or I try not to be), because they are a very clear part of gender inequality as a whole. But from every aspect I can see, when you have a system that encourages people to discriminate against people for a particular reason, and then you have a structure in that system that internalizes it even further (gaming culture), and then you have these real stories coming out about how misogyny and sexism are actively affecting people in the culture and industry....to act like it is a non issue is just not something I can agree with.

 

Women make up almost half of games, but aren't represented equally either in the industry or the media it produces. They are derided in the culture /solely/ on the basis they are women, and they are expected to be silenced or dismissed if they bring their issues up. And this is all part of a greater society wide issue. 

 

This is not something I am ok with, and I'd hope that others see it as an issue and something that's an important part of our culture to face.

 

Edit: Uhg I keep having to edit this post because I'll type something and think I saved it, only for it to not be in here >:c

 

Edit 2: I did a really bad job of linking my thoughts thoughts together so I'm trying to fix this up a bit

[Amomynous]

I believe this is somewhat relevant, so I'm just going to drop this here.

Male characters are sexualised in ways that are annoying,and yes, problematic, but to concur with BlazingTales, it's a different kettle of fish. For start, male characters are so rarely sexually objectified, and tend to be sexualised in a way that men think is sexually attractive to women, sometimes the two do coincide, but the aim is to provide for a fantasy about being sexually attractive, rather than being attracted.

I guess I would say it's not so much trying to make a character' sexy' is bad, so much as how it's done, how much of their character outright revolves around it,insisting they have a seductive look expression and tone at all times, etc.

 

BTW, I have somewhat of a dislike for Feminist Frequency's 'work' she seems to have a somewhat self-victimizing attitude and an overestimation of how important her 'work' is, possibly she's letting the, indeed appalling, vitriol get to her, but annoying attitude is annoying regardless.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Mysterics

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

BTW, I have somewhat of a dislike for Feminist Frequency's 'work' she seems to have a somewhat self-victimizing attitude and an overestimation of how important her 'work' is, possibly she's letting the, indeed appalling, vitriol get to her, but annoying attitude is annoying regardless.

 

Eh, doesn't help her case when she misses the point of some works regarding gender themes like she did with Y: The Last Man's Amazon characters and maybe the Powerpuff Girls Femme Fatale, which other commenters have pointed out in her Straw Feminist video.

 

I mean, let's be fair, she does make a number of decent points, but she applies a bit of a black and white perspective on them and there doesn't seem to be a grey area in any of the videos I've seen.

[Amomynous]

I haven't actually seen those two media so I can't judge those particular examples, but I have had similar thoughts.

 

 

 

As much as I have complained about sexual objectification, I can find it difficult to draw a line or know my exact feelings about it, so...Im' asking everyone else instead.

Is sexual objectification worse than other forms of objectification, what about portraying someone as gun/knife/monster fodder? A success object or idol? 

Arn't all characters objects?

Edited February 15, 2013 by Mysterics

[Linkabel]

The first episode of Tropes VS. Women in Video Games is up btw:

 

Edited March 7, 2013 by Jaime Bond

[Badnik Mechanic]

Lets see now...

 

Months over-due.

 

Comments disabled.

 

Ratings disabled.

 

The whole video is just her talking to the camera with stock videogame footage and screens popping in.

 

And this cost how much money to make? Who was stupid enough to donate to this project again?

[Carbo]

Saw it earlier.

Exactly what I expected. Mostly just a reading of tropes anyone can look up with some nice editing that's not even close to what the budget would have you imply. People who are interested in the subject will enjoy it while others won't care or reconsider any stances.

Remind me why all this was necessary again.

[Diogenes]

Comments disabled.

 

Ratings disabled.

Is this really a surprise considering all the hate she's gotten? It's not like there'd be much productive discussion going on.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Is this really a surprise considering all the hate she's gotten? It's not like there'd be much productive discussion going on.

 

Urm yes. Considering she's standing on a platform promoting a set of ideals and a critical theory which is supposed to be from her own research and study? I want to be able to challenge that if I think it's wrong or I disagree with it... even more so if I'd donated to this crap.

 

On the one hand 'Oh I'm promoting feminist/girls in gaming *insert my campaign mission stagement here*'

 

On the other 'Oh yeah... I need several thousand dollars to do this and no you can't comment on it when it's finished... or challenge my views... or... in fact... *locks all possible feedback methods*'

[Diogenes]

Urm yes. Considering she's standing on a platform promoting a set of ideals and a critical theory which is supposed to be from her own research and study? I want to be able to challenge that if I think it's wrong or I disagree with it... even more so if I'd donated to this crap.

I'd imagine it'd be a bit like trying to have a conversation in the middle of a soccer riot at this point.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's a double edged sword, either way.

 

Closing comments, while with good intentions of preventing harassment, makes her seem up her own ass to some people who want to engage in critical conversation with her and without harassing her. And as a result, adds more to the reputation that feminists are arrogant.

 

Although considering how black and white some of her earlier videos have been, she would have gotten criticism regardless. And there's always video responses that can still criticize (or harass in the worst case), so she can disable the comments if she wants but she can still be called on it.

Edited March 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Pelly <3's U]

It's no surprise to me that comments and ratings are disabled, she's pretty blatantly the target of trolls, and to act like commenting in all that would be the preferred/only method of challenging her points or striking up a debate rings a bit foolish to me.

 

And nothing on kickstarter is 'necessary', people put stuff on there to try and pitch their ideas to people who would like to invest in them. There's plenty of stuff on kickstarter I think is stupid, but I certainly don't care that much when other people donate.

 

And of course let's not forget whole reason she got the large amount of money /is/ because she was the victim of a ridiculous amount of harassment, and that created a large outcry among people....and of course considering the harassment was pretty much a cesspool of misogyny coming from the gaming community, it basically gave her a platform to stand on. 

 

If you ask me the very fact that regardless of the video series (which I didn't even particularly care about as I wasn't a feminist frequency fan anyways), the whole situation did give attention to a big problem and thus had value to me.

[Meow]

I watched the video, it was an inoffensive offering that I don't understand why everyone is in huge arms over it. Yes, it was fairly basic on a trope that everyone already has a pretty good idea about, but it was also only episode one. Now I don't consider some of the practices involved with the kickstarter to be all that great and perhaps on that front I can understand the frustration a tiny bit, and I am not really a fan of this lady in general to be quite honest - however I watched the video on the merit to hear another viewpoint and that is what I got. Despite all the rage and all the threats and stuff she got before this I was half-expecting that she was going to be full of vitriol herself and basically slay the medium in retaliation. Instead she presented her facts and ideas in a clear cut way that I am intrigued to see where it goes.

It is too early for me to tell if this is going to be educational to people who are unaware of a lot of the tropes or to provide a solid counter perspective to those of us who are aware of the tropes, or if it is going to essentially just be filled with a lot of criticism but with no educational value for others to learn from. I am a firm believer that when standing up for things you believe in, or to make others aware of said belief, being rational/well thought out and educational is ultimately how I'd love to see change be made. As to me, a lack of proper education on various social issues is where a lot of the social issues stem from and continue to stay. I don't think her videos will necessarily bring about a massive wind of change (as it takes more than one person on the internet making videos to do so) but I do think that if she can keep up the vibe she has in this first episode and build upon it in all the subsequent videos I'll probably watch them. I may not agree 100% with all the things she will say nor will I maybe share the same philosophy on certain subjects - but the thing is I might still tune in to see how this goes and maybe gain insight on a different perspective on things.

 

Though its too early for me to say if this is going to be a success or a failure until she starts getting into the more oft-maligned areas of women in videogames. So for now I will cautiously watch to see where this goes! 

[Pelly <3's U]

Ya personally I'm more a fan of this than her previous tropes video series, and I thought it did a good job of clearly putting together points and patterns from of large array of examples that strengthened her argument. I also thought that there was a lot of stuff that could be informational to someone who isn't very familiar with theories of character and story telling devises, or gender studies.  I will likely keep watching as well, which is interesting because I didn't have an interest in the initial videos based off of her past work.

[Meow]

Honestly I had very little interest before this as well. I just felt like the vibe on the video was a lot different than what I thought it would be, and while it is incredibly basic, I still feel like I might give it a chance.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

One can only imagine what the video responses are going to be from other people who find something to argue against...

 

Although the Damsel in Distress, I don't see how the hell you can argue against anyway. Not that it's a Dead Horse Trope since it still exists especially with Mario and Zelda, but while it's not often as popular as it was in the past now that action girls have been on the rise, it's pretty hard not to see how it makes women more of an object than a character...

 

...probably why the Mario RPGs are more interesting sometimes.

 

Gotta give her credit this time tho. She's not black and white here, so there's not much to call her out on. She's covered herself very well.

Edited March 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Pelly <3's U]

Ya while I was watching, the mostly historical examples left me somewhat questioning since while interesting to use those examples to explore the general concept, as far as a modern context goes they're not always most relevant. I'm much more excited for the next episode to see what she says for modern examples of the DiD, as well as what she says about the 'flipping the script' examples as well.

 

Also that OoT commercial.....talk about it being offensive not only in the general sense but also not fitting well with the overall story themes/story of OoT at all (which despite still having stuff like Zelda being kidnapped, also had quite a bit of very positive representations of females with Zelda being portrayed as wise and proactive for most of the game, along with the sages)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm interested in seeing her Part 2, and find out what other series are still being used.

 

Also...relevant?

 

I was once browsing the Escapist forums and found an article regarding female protagonists in the Gears of War series. And while we still have action girls, I've always wondered when they'll actually get any stronger representation in games.

 

It's like a cycle here, girls want to play games, guys find it interesting and allow them to play; girls complain about female characters represented (or underrepresented), guys take issue with those complaints and shun them (at least for representation, there seems to be somewhat of an interest in more female characters); then we have developers playing into the audience that will give them more for their business and perpetuating these things.

 

There are tons of variables I know I missed, but you get the gist of what I'm talking about. We hear tons of excuses as to why female characters in games are difficult to make, some not exactly sexist down to the comments that are downright absurd of why men don't want to play as female characters in a similar vein as how white men don't want to play as non-white (or non-asian) characters.

 

 

...and I just went into a ramble, didn't I?

 

I guess what I'm saying is no different from this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlOMGtVXB8o&playnext=1&list=PLwQbHlNjx4NEJPxFdrYyjasPZPBKBiDp5&feature=results_video

'

So...yeah.

Edited March 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Pelly <3's U]

I can't see a real change coming in the industry at this point, mainly for economic reasons.

 

It seems like the model for profitable games to be produced in the current model isn't very sustainable, and as such I can't see a lot of game developers going out of their way to take any 'risks' by trying different things. It's kind of a sad fact that while one of the ways to increase a market is to target a broader range of people (in many different areas), the fear in the industry is exactly what keeps them from doing that and instead has games all homogenizing into a mold to try and appeal to the current target audience. 

 

Despite this, there have been attempts to start reaching outside of the typical spectrum....it's just still not considered the norm. 

[Meow]

Its why I think we'll start seeing a growing trend of indie developers rising up more and more, with indie games becoming a loooot more prominent. A lot of the devs making indie games are making the kinds of games major companies aren't taking risks on and I feel like more and more people are gonna start gravitating towards them. That's just my prediction on it though.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Change doesn't happen overnight, we all know that...

 

But considering how much money AAA will spend akin to movie titles, there's more to it than meets the eye (or not, I'll just have Masaru explain that bit since I don't have the details). Kinda why other models are being done such as Free 2 Play, Kickstarter, and so forth. Although what the hell do I know about how these things will bring forth change?

 

But we're still in a specific fad. The current fad from what it seems is on FPSes and shooters, just like how the past had a lot of platforming titles. You have some that break that old mold and add new spice while others play follow the leader. As soon as another fad hits, we can analyze the changes from there.

 

It's just worth noting that when someone ends up breaking that model into a different fad, it can very well make much of the industry follow suit. If marketing can overcome that barrier the industry is trapped in, I'm pretty sure we can see some changes being made in the industry.

Edited March 8, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Kid]

I can't see a real change coming in the industry at this point, mainly for economic reasons.

 

It seems like the model for profitable games to be produced in the current model isn't very sustainable, and as such I can't see a lot of game developers going out of their way to take any 'risks' by trying different things. It's kind of a sad fact that while one of the ways to increase a market is to target a broader range of people (in many different areas), the fear in the industry is exactly what keeps them from doing that and instead has games all homogenizing into a mold to try and appeal to the current target audience. 

 

Despite this, there have been attempts to start reaching outside of the typical spectrum....it's just still not considered the norm. 

 

     The only branching out in the industry at this point in time seems to be in the "indie" sector. There are more games with attempts to tell interesting stories through new mechanics than there were before. I feel like sexism and racism in video games would be eliminated through the continuing effort of indie developers over anything else. They have to be unique or different from the norm in order to get attention, with the lack of a real budget and major exposure limiting their market. Heck, one example off the top of my head is http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2jWYCXneCn8, a game that looks insanely addicting yet tries to educate people and make them think about the different ethical viewpoints of not only the  side they choose in game, but how real riots affect the world. Indie games are becoming more "In" right now, with games like Unfinished Swan impressing many audiences. I know it has more exposure than gems like Riot, but the fact that games like this are made more and more is a sign of progress, even if it is ever so slight.

 

I'm optimistic about the female sex getting fairer treatment in video games at some point in time. The medium is relatively new compared to something like cinema, which has me believe risk-taking will become more and more common as the market expands.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Wolf-San

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Really, it just depends on who wants to take on the risk and make a successful attempt to break the barrier and open up the path for females in gaming to reach a more egalitarian position than it currently is now.

 

And that takes a lot of power in more ways than one. Someone would have to be willing to become the Hayao Miyazaki of video games, and in addition to that they would need to be able to market and produce titles to stay afloat and make an impact, and that's in addition to reaching out to the audience.

 

But like I said...what the hell do I know about this anymore than just a simplistic view of it? 

[Phos]

Most revilatory information gleaned from this video:  They used

in an

Edited March 8, 2013 by Phos

[Meow]

Change doesn't happen overnight, we all know that...

 

But considering how much money AAA will spend akin to movie titles, there's more to it than meets the eye (or not, I'll just have Masaru explain that bit since I don't have the details). Kinda why other models are being done such as Free 2 Play, Kickstarter, and so forth. Although what the hell do I know about how these things will bring forth change?

 

But we're still in a specific fad. The current fad from what it seems is on FPSes and shooters, just like how the past had a lot of platforming titles. You have some that break that old mold and add new spice while others play follow the leader. As soon as another fad hits, we can analyze the changes from there.

 

It's just worth noting that when someone ends up breaking that model into a different fad, it can very well make much of the industry follow suit. If marketing can overcome that barrier the industry is trapped in, I'm pretty sure we can see some changes being made in the industry.

Oh, I wasn't being genre specific (in regards to the shooter thing). I meant 'risk' more in the sense of financial backing. A lot of money is poured into games so they make sure to aim them at a target market that will consistently get them that money back...and when it doesn't they are likely to lay people off and can the franchise etc and move on to the next big thing. I don't think there is going to be a shift in the AAA market where AAA games become a lot cheaper to make, so I don't foresee them really shifting to a system where there is a lot more risk.

 

But I still believe that the audience that currently isn't being tapped by those big companies, and isn't being catered to among social games and other games like that, will start noticing the indie devs and their titles. I see and more news on independent games as well as smaller studios starting up all over the place, and they're all making games different from the norm. This wasn't nearly as widespread as years ago, but then again it is a lot easier now to get your stuff noticed all around the world. There are a lot of experimental games out there too (some which I find completely pretentious mind you, but they're trying new things all the same). I think the people who aren't getting anything from AAA titles as it is are going to really start gravitating towards these other games. Not to mention there seems to be a lot more equality in terms of who is actually working on these games, I find there is a lot closer of a ratio in indie teams when it concerns the number of men and women working on the project- which kind of tells you something in its own right as well . A lot of indie devs I think are just teams of individuals who really just want to make things they love.

If that market ends up becoming a lot more bigger I am sure  the big guys will try and take a slice of the cake, but I don't see 'em doing it nearly as well since their primary concern is the $$$ and would be entirely missing the point.  Granted I have no facts to back any of this up with and its merely speculation on my part but that's just how I see it.