Undertale (PC, PS4, Switch) & Deltarune (PC DEMO)

[Dejablue]

The lesson is that things can be settled in a pacifistic manner, going the ol' Gandhi way?

Peaceful resolution is a fine message but not when a whole half of the population doesn't need to honor it.

[Diogenes]

Like the fact that killing even one monster will knock you out of a pacifist run.

Yeah, he should've let you kill people and still be considered a pacifist! Wait what.

It contradicts the story that these creatures continually attack you.  Self defense isn't stooping to anyone's level.  The only time killing a monster is wrong is when you betray kill them. But it's implied that the same specific monsters will come after you even after you've spared them, and yet humans are somehow the bad guys. Why?

First off it's kind of ambiguous if you keep running into the same monsters are not. There are some unique monsters (which, for the most part, you only fight once anyway) but most monsters still show up in future battles even if you kill one, implying they're a species and not individuals.

Gameplay wise it's fine. But as far as the story goes the monsters never say. "Maybe killing humans isn't a good idea."  In this case, is allowing hypothetical and literal monsters back up to the surface even a good idea?

Do you dismiss all of humanity just because we have our own murderous assholes?

Like, these things aren't asking Frisk out to a pizza party. They are trying to kill you.

I don't think most of them are, actually. Most monsters don't realize that Frisk is a human. And spraying magic everywhere is basically how monsters communicate (there's a book in the Librarby, I think, that talks about bullet-pattern birthday cards).

Defending themselves against a child. Wow such bravery.

Even ignoring the above bit about how monsters don't know you're a human, humans are fucking terrifying to monsters. All the magic they've got hardly matters to a human who actually intends to harm them. The only reason anything in the game is a fair fight is because you are controlling a small, weak, usually nice child.

[Candescence]

Actually, the war was entirely unprovoked. Humanity started it out of simple fear. It's implied that the war began in ancient/medieval times, where people were ignorant and superstitious. An outright genocide out of fear, as terrible as it is, is entirely unsurprising for such era - entire peoples were wiped out for far, far worse reasons. The Cathars, a sect of Christianity who preached non-violence, were wiped out in a crusade declared by Pope Innocent III, for example. No wonder many monsters are also equally fearful and distrusting, but the rest have simply forgotten what humans even look like. If previous humans who have fallen down might have killed for whatever reason, the idea of this particular human being entirely pacifistic would seem entirely unbelievable to some monsters, or perhaps the monsters you encounter simply don't know the player isn't hurting anyone, or perhaps they simply mistake the player for a monster and are performing magic that would normally be harmless but can actually hurt humans (as Diogenes points out, magic is a regular part of communication between monsters, who are literally made of the stuff - humans aren't). Who knows. There are plenty of reasons for monsters to be attacking a pacifist player, intentionally or otherwise.

I should also point out that one of the conditions for the pacifist ending is befriending Undyne, who is required to befriend Alphys (you have to befriend Papyrus first, but you can do that no matter what you do as long as you don't kill him, dude is incredibly forgiving, bless his soul). And Undyne won't give you the time of day if you've killed anyone. Hell, you'll really only be judged harshly by the rest of the underground in the neutral ending if you kill at least ten monsters, if I recall, but Undyne will feel betrayed if you kill anyone after befriending her. Considering Undyne is big on justice and whatnot, it's actually a fairly logical for her to act that way.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Candescence

[Dejablue]

The war provoked out of fear. but a fear of what? Monsters stealing souls. They knew what that looked like, other wise they would have nothing to fear. If monsters with souls are horrible beasts, then the monster was doing horrible things. Horrible things which lead to war.

[Briraka]

The lesson is that things can be settled in a pacifistic manner, going the ol' Gandhi way?

I don't know how Gandhi passed away, but I do of two other famous pacifist who were either assassinated or hung up on the cross.

Played a neutral run recently, and man, I should've played this one first. After playing the pacifist run first and then this, the neutral ending is even more hollow than the pacifist one knowing that I denied everyone else's happy ending.

[FriendBot]

I don't know how Gandhi passed away, but I do of two other famous pacifist who were either assassinated or hung up on the cross.

Hidden Content

I think Gandhi was also assasinated as well.

[Dejablue]

Also, most if not all of the monsters in underground are in support of getting revenge on humans which includes killing whoever falls into their world and stealing their souls. So that they can get passed the barrier and basically start the mess all over again. Toriel is the only monster who seemed to be against it. Only at the end of a pacifist run do they even seem to consider taking a peaceful angle to reintroducing themselves to humanity. (And maybe one of the neutral endings. But most of those judge you harshly or...wow those Mettaton endings are disturbing.)

So no, I don't disregard all of humanity just because we have bad people. But Monster-kind by a majority want to strike back at humanity again. They don't even know what a human looks like but they're ignorant, and at no point does the narrative develop the monsters as anything but "we're right and humans are always evil." It's sickeningly two-dimensional and preachy. 

We don't know what events lead up to the previous fallen humans to die except for Chara. For all we know, they woke up disoriented and confused, and then immediately attacked by monsters. According to Flowey's kill or be killed rhetoric, this might mean that the wilderness is full of hostile monsters.

How can you assume anyone who just falls down a hole has a killing intent? If that were the case, humanity would have finished the job by simply jumping into the underground and killing every single monster. It makes more sense to believe that every fallen human was just some innocent but super unlucky person or child. No matter what happened, the monsters took advantage of them every single time.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[Nepenthe]

I think only Asgore and the Royal Guard knew about the reaping that was going on and the rest of the monsters are just chillin'. Furthermore, Flowey is a completely unreliable narrator in the aftermath when it comes to describing the lives of monsters. Because he's... yanno... pure evil and all.

[FriendBot]

Also, most if not all of the monsters in underground are in support of getting revenge on humans which includes killing whoever falls into their world and stealing their souls. So that they can get passed the barrier and basically start the mess all over again. Toriel is the only monster who seemed to be against it. Only at the end of a pacifist run do they even seem to consider taking a peaceful angle to reintroducing themselves to humanity.

So no, I don't disregard all of humanity just because we have bad people. But Monster-kind by a majority want to strike back at humanity again. They don't even know what a human looks like but they're ignorant, and at no point does the narrative develop the monsters as anything but "we're right and humans are always evil." It's sickeningly two-dimensional and preachy.

Well Asgore said that he'll get revenge on the humans in a fit of rage but he really didn't meant it but he didn't want his kingdom to lose hope and also there wasn't any other way for the monsters to break through the barrier since a monster soul AND a human soul is needed to pass through the barrier alone (kind of makes you wonder on how Frisk managed to pass through at the Neutral Ending). Asgore knows that what he does is wrong but he has no other choice if he wants monsters to escape the underground.

Yeahhhhh nooooo for the bolded. No one has ever said that all humans are bad, Undyne may have thought so at first but it's quite obvious that the game tells us that this is wrong.

I don't think you haven't entirely understood what the game's trying to say.

 

[Diogenes]

So no, I don't disregard all of humanity just because we have bad people. But Monster-kind by a majority want to strike back at humanity again. They don't even know what a human looks like but they're ignorant, and at no point does the narrative develop the monsters as anything but "we're right and humans are always evil." It's sickeningly two-dimensional and preachy.

Did you...not pay any attention to Asgore?

I honestly don't get where you're reading this black and white "humans evil monsters good" shit from. You complain about it being sickeningly two-dimensional but you're the only one trying to force it into that mold.

[Dejablue]

Asgore is probably one of the better characters. I didn't want to fight him, and he was fighting me for the benefit of his people. I like Asgore. At the end I didn't think twice about sparing him. I don't like most of the other monsters. Who just fight me because I exist. As I stated before, some of the ones you befriend, just follow and fight you again anyway, they always strike first. Am I supposed to excuse this? What sense does it make? These monsters didn't learn anything!

Because I don't meet Asgore until the very end of the game, it still feels black and white. With him being that one complex character that I could feel his discomfort and pain.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[DBZHedgy]

It would shed a lot more light on this situation if the other humans who came to the underground were given some context as to how they were killed.

Since Toriel knew of the other humans and they didn't kill her or the other monsters in the ruins, it stands to reason that they were peaceful folk too, and yet their souls were still swiped, just because they were human. Undyne and the Royal guard are probably to blame for that. Or perhaps they too made it all the way to Asgore and got killed, since Toriel specifically says that Asgore will kill you as you're about to leave.

None of the other monsters in Snowdin, or the Waterfall, or that Hotel place ever account for Humans being of any disturbance to their lives. So it stands to reason, that they were killed out of spite. 

I'm not saying that all of the monsters do that, of course, the good faaaaaar outweigh the bad, it's just that they're retaliating in a way that was no different than the way the humans acted at the beginning of the way, and it's really ironic and hypocritical. 

 

Asgore is probably one of the better characters. I didn't want to fight him, and he was fighting me for the benefit of his people. I like Asgore. At the end I didn't think twice about sparing him. I don't like most of the other monsters. Who just fight me because I exist. As I stated before, some of the ones you befriend, just follow and fight you again anyway, they always strike first. Am I supposed to excuse this? What sense does it make? These monsters didn't learn anything!

There are multiple monsters of the same species in the Underground, there isn't just one of each. Like the Froggits in the Ruins and the Vegetoids. There are several of those seen on the overworld map, so it would be a fair assumption to say that they aren't the same person/monster. 

Because I don't meet Asgore until the very end of the game, it still feels black and white. With him being that one complex character that I could feel his discomfort and pain.

What about Toriel then? She's cared for you since you fell down, and she didn't even know you. 

and depending on how demonically insane you are (how many monsters and main characters that you've killed) the ending phone call can give you that same sense of discomfort and pain or an even greater degree of said feelings tbh.

I recommend that you play the game on a different path at least one more time (if you've only done the neutral run), because the Pacifist and/or Genocide routes give you a much deeper understanding of the characters in the game.

Edited December 22, 2015 by DBZHedgy

[FriendBot]

It would shed a lot more light on this situation if the other humans who came to the underground were given some context as to how they were killed.

Since Toriel knew of the other humans and they didn't kill her or the other monsters in the ruins, it stands to reason that they were peaceful folk too, and yet their souls were still swiped, just because they were human. Undyne and the Royal guard are probably to blame for that. Or perhaps they too made it all the way to Asgore and got killed, since Toriel specifically says that Asgore will kill you as you're about to leave.

None of the other monsters in Snowdin, or the Waterfall, or that Hotel place ever account for Humans being of any disturbance to their lives. So it stands to reason, that they were killed out of spite. 

...did you forgot the reason why the humans were killed?

They needed the souls so Asgore can take them and break the barrier, that's like the entire AND only reason why they do it. 

The don't kill just out of spite, it's because they've grown sick of living in the underground and want to live in the surface world.

I don't even.....

[DBZHedgy]

oh nooooooooo

double poooooooooost

...did you forgot the reason why the humans were killed?

They needed the souls so Asgore can take them and break the barrier, that's like the entire AND only reason why they do it. 

The don't kill just out of spite, it's because they've grown sick of living in the underground and want to live in the surface world.

I don't even.....

I know this, but at the same time, why?

Toriel came out and told him that he could've just taken one soul and ended it all, but he chose to harvest them. Asgore wanted to be an unstoppable monster so he could go and make the humans extinct. That's pretty clear indication of spite if you ask me. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by DBZHedgy

[Nepenthe]

Asgore was stricken by a significant amount of grief and blindness due to the death of Asriel at the hands of mistaken humans, and he went on about his plan with a lot of hesitation and sugar-coating- probably because deep down he knew it was wrong anyway. So I wouldn't call him spiteful so much as I would say heavily scorned.

[Diogenes]

Toriel came out and told him that he could've just taken one soul and ended it all, but he chose to harvest them. Asgore wanted to be an unstoppable monster so he could go and make the humans extinct. That's pretty clear indication of spite if you ask me. 

Asgore wanted to avoid the whole thing, at least after he had cooled his head a bit. If he actually wanted to kill humans he wouldn't have given you every possible chance to walk away without fighting. He only actually fights you when you literally push him into a corner and insist on it.

[DBZHedgy]

Asgore's spite was caused by a significant amount of grief and blindness due to the death of Asriel at the hands of mistaken humans, and he went on about his plan with a lot of hesitation and sugar-coating- probably because deep down he knew it was wrong anyway. So I wouldn't call him spiteful so much as I would say heavily scorned.

While I agree that it was in part due to rage, on the other end of the spectrum we see Toriel not only forgiving said humans, but housing them when they fall down Mt. Ebott. It makes no difference since they both 

lost their child.

How they handled it differently shows that they have character, but at the same time, it doesn't excuse Asgore's rash actions because of this.  

Edited December 22, 2015 by DBZHedgy

[Briraka]

While the randomly encountered monsters may have good intentions and they don't want to harm you, I still feel that the player is justified acting in self-defense because the monster's projectiles still hurt the player. I wouldn't say to kill them right away, but at least I'd try to lower their HP enough so that they no longer wish to engage with me, but I can understand an accidental killing in the case of encountering lower level monsters.

As for the whole history of humans and monsters... this shits like real life. You get bombarded with so many contradicting recounts of what happened, so you just stick with what you think was the right telling or make up your own retelling of events.

[Dejablue]

So those other souls and coffins are just me hallucinating.

[DBZHedgy]

Asgore wanted to avoid the whole thing, at least after he had cooled his head a bit. If he actually wanted to kill humans he wouldn't have given you every possible chance to walk away without fighting. He only actually fights you when you literally push him into a corner and insist on it.

Well... he outright says that he was planning to kill all of the humans for all of the suffering they caused them so I can't really say that this is true. He also still kills 6 of the humans and plans on killing a 7th instead of just taking Toriels advice, so I wouldn't say that he's completely apathetic about fighting.

[Diogenes]

Well... he outright says that he was planning to kill all of the humans for all of the suffering they caused them so I can't really say that this is true.

He says it when he's hurt and angry, yes. He realizes how terrible it is somewhere along the line though, but he's too much of a coward to take away the hope he gave to his people.

 He also still kills 6 of the humans and plans on killing a 7th instead of just taking Toriels advice, so I wouldn't say that he's completely apathetic about fighting.

 Again, he's a coward. He doesn't want to kill humans, so he hides and hopes it all goes away. But any human that falls into the underground and wants to leave has to go through him. They need a monster soul to go through the barrier, only a boss monster's soul lasts long enough for a human to take it, and he and Toriel are the only boss monsters we know of. If he treated the other humans anything like he treated Frisk, he gave them every opportunity to not fight, to turn back and try to live in the underground.

[Nepenthe]

So those other souls and coffins are just me hallucinating.

No one is saying this. We're saying your reading of the game isn't rooted in a lot of the context or subtext.

[Dejablue]

By your logic the humans would have killed Toriel. None of them did and instead stupidly faced Asgore. Wow these humans are so evil they're retarded.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[DBZHedgy]

 

He says it when he's hurt and angry, yes.

Hurt, yes. I doubt he was angry though.

He seemed a lot more apologetic than irritated or angry about the situation. It certainly feels like he's being honest what with the "You can come live with me and my wife, and we can be a family" and stuff after that.

 

Again, he's a coward. He doesn't want to kill humans, so he hides and hopes it all goes away. But any human that falls into the underground and wants to leave has to go through him. They need a monster soul to go through the barrier, only a boss monster's soul lasts long enough for a human to take it, and he and Toriel are the only boss monsters we know of. If he treated the other humans anything like he treated Frisk, he gave them every opportunity to not fight, to turn back and try to live in the underground.

I can understand the cowardice and that he doesn't want to take back what he promised to his people, but is anyone really pent up about the Humans besides Undyne? If you do a pacifist run, on a first playthrough, Toriel comes back into power and people are pretty much ok with her policy of having to treat every Human who falls down preciously.  

I doubt that much aggression is even necessary at this point, given how long it's taken. Maybe that's why Toriel was so angry with him to begin with. 

[Your Vest Friend]

Have we forgotten how Bratty, Catty and Burgerpants were all looking forward to humanity's destruction?