Undertale (PC, PS4, Switch) & Deltarune (PC DEMO)

[Haalyle]

38 minutes ago, Dejablue said:

You know everyone is going to want a comic about sans.

Pun intended?

But yeah, Sans was the first character that came into my mind. Or maybe Papyrus.

[shdowhunt60]

Can I just applaud how this game approaches same-sex couples? By not sitting there and putting it on a pedestal or by doing the cliche thing of angsting over discrimination by having everybody throw stones at the nearest uncloseted gay person? Or by merely making them a token character who's sole existence is to be gay, and nothing else?

I mean, really, I don't see it enough in fiction. A world where homosexuality isn't treated like leprosy or something.

[DaBatGuy]

With that quote about "darkness" I'm almost certain the next game will explain Gaster and by proxy explain his possible connection to Sans and Papyrus.

[shdowhunt60]

Honestly, Toby is smart. Given what he's done to spin people's mind with the first game, I wouldn't be surprised if he does something completely unexpected. Like, him making a game that is completely unrelated to Undertale, and yet ties into it in hidden details that has people going on a wild goose chase.

That said, if the development of Undertale is anything to go off of, I can see this theoretical future game taking another 3 years.

[shdowhunt60]

So, I found this guy who did voiceovers for a bunch of the characters dialogues and... My god. His Burger Pants...

 

[FriendBot]

Well I personally feel like Burgerpants changes his voice based on how he feels, this is just my thoughts. Like normally, BP sounds like Dave the Intern from the Sonic Boom cartoon, but whenever he gives advice, his voice suddenly turns into a deep voice. 

But he does do a good Burgerpants but I kinda like CrashBoomBanger's voice for him.

[Dejablue]

I know who I want a comic to be about now. It's obviously burgerpants.  

I've listened to that youtube dub video like 20 times. IMO its like...perfection.  Also there is an excellent Bratty/Catty one that I love.

[Strickerx5]

So, I finally got around to playing this game everyone and their mother has been on about for the last few months and I'd thought I'd just share my thoughts...

I think three words can sum up my general opinion here: "What. The. Hell..."

I'm... honestly at a lost here. I just finished my first run (tried to spare everyone but I think I might have fucked up somewhere int he beginning with a dummy but anyways...) and I honestly have no idea what I just played. I came in with as low of expectations I could possibly bring myself to after hearing all this hype and I just came out... confused more than anything.

Did I find this game good or bad? Well, honestly I can see where everyone is coming from. The game is something I honestly haven't seen before. It goes against a lot of presumptions I've had about games. Some of these surprises left me amazed and others... well...

Ok, I know I'm about to step on some toes here but for me, looking at Undertale as a game... I didn't like it. LET ME EXPLAIN! The base gameplay, the closest genre I can possible compare it to, is a mixture of top-down rpg and bullet time gameplay. Both of which I disliked before hand. Combining the two, for me personally, ended up making my playthrough of this game more of a chore than not. Rpgs I can deal with. Leveling up, planing out a strategy, grinding when necessary... I can handle that. Bullet time... I just can't. It requires me to be close to perfect and that's just something I can't do. Add in the fact that being a nice guy in this game is apparently means pretty much forgoing the whole rpg side of it all together and I was left praying that my god awful reflexes could last me till the next checkpoint. Didn't help that, as far as I know after my first playthrough, there was no way to at least level up your health bar during a pacifist run and the gameplay just ended up being... not fun.

Another issue I had throughout my first playthrough is generally the way the game treats you. I know it's really part of the story for the game to be as cryptic as possible but THERE IS A POINT AT WHICH THAT BECOMES ANNOYING. Undertale crossed that line for me quite often. Sorry, but I'm someone who doesn't like to run through a game with a guide right next to me. At some-points, I swear this game downright required it to get past certain bosses in certain ways. What makes matters worst is that the game treats you like a straight up ass hole for making mista- WAIT NO, more along the lines of choices rather than mistakes. Mistakes imply that I did something wrong. This game straight up punishes for making certain choices. One of the biggest offending parts in the game of this has to be the spider boss.

Spoiler

Early in the game, I went to the bake sale. I brought some stuff. Though, the "mistake" (that I had to search up about afterwards to find out) that I made was that I used it to heal myself somewhere before you meet up with that spider, lady... thing. Honestly, how the hell was I suppose to know that I should be saving that pastry till I meet up with her without looking at a guide? It's impossible and that truly annoyed me to no end.

 

The game is filled with tricks (some of which even break the fourth wall or go well beyond the point of comfort) like that and I find that downright idiotic honestly.

Secret items, secret rooms, secret characters, secret sequences and tactics, secret secrets... I feel like 3/4ths of this game is hidden beyond multiple looked doors with a big metal door in front of those that requires a password (which if you look on some random reddit page will be "passwordz") that is again behind an unlocked door with a sign that reads something along the lines of: "Do you choose to break you mom's heart and open the door?"!... Like honestly guys, I might not be far enough in to see something special or too foreign to the design of this game to understand but I fell as though I paid for a giant mindfuck of a joke here... And yet...

I still love the overall package... OK, hear me out. As a game, I find Undertale to be needlessly complicated and just plain unwelcoming. But... it has a heart to it that isn't matched by any other game that comes to mind. What posed me to finish a game that I found "so awful" you might ask? The narrative, the characters, the general feel of the world. Frankly, I was hooked. I wanted to see how this was all going to turn out and I still want to see it through other runs as well. I can see why a fanbase grew here almost overnight and I honestly want to be apart of it (well, as apart of it as I usually am with things by watching videos related to it and what not but hey). While I might not go back into the game proper, I am definitely going to continue to follow it through other means (i.e. playthroughs). It truly is something else and, while the hours of frustration I had with it and most of this post might say otherwise, I'm glad I tried it.

So yeah, Undertale might not have been the game for me but it captures something that no other game I've played has even come close to and I have to recommend it purely because of that. It's a game that I've barely seemed to scratch the service of and has already given me a lot to talk about. Again, I'm glad I sat down and gave it a shot. Anyways, late to the party? Hell yeah. A bit long winded? What else did you expect from me? Am I into this as a whole? ... yeah, I'd say so.

 

P.S.  

 

Spoiler

Also, the fact that this game has managed to somewhat unnerve me without a single jumpscare so far (especially in the kind of gaming climate we're in) instantly earns it a thumbs up from me!   

Edited January 5, 2016 by Strickerx5
da spoilers: thanks GG!

[FriendBot]

Quick tip on Muffet

Sans actually gives you a hint on handle her and about the Temmie Armor at the Hot Dog Stand. If you refuse to buy a hot dog, he tells you to save it up for college and charities.

The hints are there, just saying so it's best to interact with everything as much as possible.

[GamerGirl54321]

15 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

 

Spoiler

Early in the game, I went to the bake sale. I brought some stuff. Though, the "mistake" (that I had to search up about afterwards to find out) that I made was that I used it to heal myself somewhere before you meet up with that spider, lady... thing. Honestly, how the hell was I suppose to know that I should be saving that pastry till I meet up with her without looking at a guide? It's impossible and that truly annoyed me to no end.

 

added spoiler tags for you lol (you have to do [ spoiler ] to start and [ /spoiler ] to end, without the spaces)

 

Spoiler

 

That was just intended to be a fun little trick players could figure out afterwards, new players weren't supposed to be able to figure that out.

 

 

IMO, a lot of this game's beauty comes from all the hidden stuff. It's worth it to go and look at the one echo flower a second time. It's worth it to mess with the code. It adds a lot of replay value for a lot of people.

Just my opinion, but having everything up front is kind of... Eh, for me.

Edited January 5, 2016 by GamerGirl54321

[FriendBot]

Undertale's charm is because of the fact there's so many details in quite frankly a pretty closed in area. You can interact with so many things and get so much out of it, heck calling up Papyrus (or Undyne if you befriended her) in every room I'm in brings in so much enjoyment out of the game.

[Strickerx5]

Just now, Soni said:

Undertale's charm is because of the fact there's so many details in quite frankly a pretty closed in area. You can interact with so many things and get so much out of it, heck calling up Papyrus (or Undyne if you befriended her) in every room I'm in brings in so much enjoyment out of the game.

I agree, it's part of it's charm. Though, it's when these details start to effect gameplay for the worse is where I jump ship. The game is already pretty demanding in it's gameplay as is. In my opinion, there's no need to make it worse because I didn't remember something a character said off hand over a hundred rooms back. For story purposes, sure. Gameplay? Please no...

 

[FriendBot]

1 minute ago, Strickerx5 said:

I agree, it's part of it's charm. Though, it's when these details start to effect gameplay for the worse is where I jump ship. The game is already pretty demanding in it's gameplay as is. In my opinion, there's no need to make it worse because I didn't remember something a character said off hand over a hundred rooms back. For story purposes, sure. Gameplay? Please no...

 

Well since I do have a strong memory, I can recall things quite well and the hints are subtle but they do give some insight on you need to do for said bosses.

For Toriel, a Froggit tells you that sometimes you need to spare a monster even if their name is highlighted in yellow.

For Undyne, she tells you that when you're green, you can't run away so it gives a subtle hint that when you're red, you can.

For Mettaton, there are 2 guys that tell you some hints on how to deal with this battle. Things like changing outfits, posing and eating food like Glamburgers help boost up ratings

For Asgore, the fact that he destroyed the Mercy option is blatant in of itself.

And aren't RPGs the type of games, you take your time and get soaked in to the world interacting with fellow NPCs and as such. Like I understand your frustration but I don't really think it's an actual flaw in the game imo.

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

Another issue I had throughout my first playthrough is generally the way the game treats you. I know it's really part of the story for the game to be as cryptic as possible but THERE IS A POINT AT WHICH THAT BECOMES ANNOYING. Undertale crossed that line for me quite often. Sorry, but I'm someone who doesn't like to run through a game with a guide right next to me. At some-points, I swear this game downright required it to get past certain bosses in certain ways.

Well, part of that is part of the game's premise; will you die a thousand deaths to find a way for everyone to be happy, or will you start killing when it's convenient for you? Getting a happy ending means not taking the easy path.

And to be honest I don't think there are any Spare methods that are all that obtuse. The difficult ones are mostly just doing the opposite of what you've been trained to do.

For Toriel, one of the NPC Froggits talks about a situation where you might have to use the Spare command even if an enemy isn't ready to spare, outright giving you the answer. Talking doesn't work, running makes no progress, and no items you have do anything to her. So obviously it must come down to either attacking or sparing. Attacking doesn't do anything to move things forward aside form depleting her health, sparing actually gets new dialogue (even if the differences are easy to overlook). And, to be fair, the game is kind of baiting you into attacking; it's sort of intentional that you kill her, have Flowey call you out, and then reload so you can figure out how to spare her. But even this is the game trying to make you aware that reloading is an option, that you're in the privileged position of not having to live with your bad choices.

For Undyne, you need to break away from the idea that running from fights is a bad thing. In most RPGs it is, unless it's a matter of survival, since you get no EXP and thus don't move forwards in the game, and you usually can't run from bosses anyway. But Undertale has already taught you that it's the RPG that subverts RPG tropes. Plus, Undyne herself gives you a hint, talking about green soul mode making you unable to run away. If you pay close attention, you should notice that this means literally removing the option while you're green.

And Asgore, well, he's the game telling you to unlearn what it's taught you. He's a mirror of Toriel's fight; talking quickly stops having an effect, no items end the battle, and he's destroyed your option to run or spare. Attacking is your only choice.

Aside from that, I can't think of any fight that's too tough to figure out, you mostly just have to fiddle with the available options until something has an effect.

Quote

What makes matters worst is that the game treats you like a straight up ass hole for making mista- WAIT NO, more along the lines of choices rather than mistakes. Mistakes imply that I did something wrong. This game straight up punishes for making certain choices. One of the biggest offending parts in the game of this has to be the spider boss.

This really isn't the game punishing you for making the wrong choice, though. What you did is the normal way for the battle to play out, the way 99% of people are going to experience it their first time through. Keeping something from the bake sale around is the kind of thing you're only expected to figure out afterwards. Like if you did a neutral run, made some mistakes, and started over aiming for pacifist.

[Kaze no Klonoa]

50 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

I agree, it's part of it's charm. Though, it's when these details start to effect gameplay for the worse is where I jump ship. The game is already pretty demanding in it's gameplay as is. In my opinion, there's no need to make it worse because I didn't remember something a character said off hand over a hundred rooms back. For story purposes, sure. Gameplay? Please no...

 

Undertale is imo probably one of the least demanding games I've played this year, when comparing it against Metal Gear Solid V, Fallout 4, etc. It's a game that rewards patience and attention, you'll be able to easily achieve the best ending without a guide if you catch the clues of the dialogue and try all of the options and abilities you have. Sans telling you constantly time after time about that blue attack should be enough to tell the player that paying attention to the dialogue is crucial. It's not Myst's levels of "Find something, jot down clues in a piece of paper".

Did you finish the game in True Pacifist? I read your post and I'm still not sure if you did, since the game's "neutral" ending was intended to be ultimately unsatisfying.

[Sean]

I did the whole game without looking up a guide once. I thought it was a fairly intuitive game, myself. Though I did ask a friend for help on a certain boss halfway.

[Kuzu]

Its a game that really isn't that difficult to figure out; its really all about paying attention to detail and piecing things together. I don't really consider that counter-intuitive, but then I'm the type of gamer who looks for detail when  I play.

[Dejablue]

You know I just realized that the neutral endings have a plot hole in them.  There is no way for Frisk to pass the barrier without a monster soul. Right? (This is a really stupid and contrived implementation by those wizard guys anyway but still...) The whole point is to get to Asgore and take his soul.  Then with your human soul plus a monster soul, you can pass the barrier.  But no matter what, Flowey shatters Asgore's soul and humans cannot absorb another human soul...and Flowey by default is soulless.

So in reality Frisk never gets out even though there are some neutral endings that make it really obvious that you supposedly escaped.

 

Edit: Huh? What the heck, where did the spoiler option go?

[sonicgirl313]

2 hours ago, Dejablue said:

You know I just realized that the neutral endings have a plot hole in them.  There is no way for Frisk to pass the barrier without a monster soul. Right? (This is a really stupid and contrived implementation by those wizard guys anyway but still...) The whole point is to get to Asgore and take his soul.  Then with your human soul plus a monster soul, you can pass the barrier.  But no matter what, Flowey shatters Asgore's soul and humans cannot absorb another human soul...and Flowey by default is soulless.

So in reality Frisk never gets out even though there are some neutral endings that make it really obvious that you supposedly escaped.

 

Edit: Huh? What the heck, where did the spoiler option go?

There are actually theories about that. A lot of people are convinced it was done purposely since they are convinced that Toby had thought out the story too well.

[Dejablue]

4 minutes ago, sonicgirl313 said:

There are actually theories about that. A lot of people are convinced it was done purposely since they are convinced that Toby had thought out the story too well.

Unless it's explained in a sequel, I honestly believe this is a plothole. Because...technically none of the neutral endings are canon anyway so why would he waste his time expounding on them. (Though some of the neutral endings have interesting scenarios to ponder) That's why they're just phone calls, so you get pissed enough to play again to see the true ending. I've seen a couple of theories but they are far-fetched at best. 

It could very well be purposeful misdirection. But I already think people rate this game's narrative too highly and Toby isn't the messiah of story telling. He can make mistakes.

Also giving an explanation in some side material like a comic does not count.

[FriendBot]

I've heard stuff like Frisk actually died passing through the barrier. Which kind of makes the phone call all the more saddening.

[sonicgirl313]

1 minute ago, Soni said:

I've heard stuff like Frisk actually died passing through the barrier. Which kind of makes the phone call all the more saddening.

That's actually the theory that I watched, though it makes you wonder if Frisk really died, how does the save/reset happens.

[Dejablue]

Saddening? If Frisk is dead it feels kind of pointless. 

Though the King Papyrus ending always makes me feel bad.

[Strickerx5]

4 hours ago, Soni said:

Well since I do have a strong memory, I can recall things quite well and the hints are subtle but they do give some insight on you need to do for said bosses.

 

Hidden Content

 

And aren't RPGs the type of games, you take your time and get soaked in to the world interacting with fellow NPCs and as such. Like I understand your frustration but I don't really think it's an actual flaw in the game imo.

They are, but I'm hard pressed to call this similar to any rpg I've played in my life. The game is an rpg, don't get me wrong, but it does challenge quite of few standards that makes an rpg, well, and rpg on certain runs. This got to the point where my mind honestly thought of it less as a game where any sort of strategy or planning was needed and more of a game that needed me to figure out "ok, what the hell do I need to unlearn here to get out of this fight as quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible".

Also, please don't get me wrong. I realize I'm in the minority here and a lot of the issues I have can quickly be chalked up to approaching the game the wrong way. It's just, a new thing for me you know? Like, I was not aware of how subtle the hint system was going to be until like the final area but by then the damage had already been done for me. Don't think of any of my points being general flaws, but more of opinions I felt right after my first run-through.

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Hidden Content

In terms of that whole flower and first boss sequence. That did happen to me but I didn't find the text bubbles encouraging me to redo encounters like that, quite the opposite really. Made it sound like that if I did it too many times the game would know and wreck my progress. Honestly, it was one of my main instances of the game seemingly being more unforgiving than not and that was less than an hour in.

I will say that the more I see of this game the more the points you (and everyone here really) made make sense. Haha, like really the closest thing I can compare this to would be the Riddler trophies in the Arkham Games. Some of the trophies you collect there do stray from the norm at points and need you to rethink what you've been doing like a puzzle (though I will say no trophy comes close to anything in Undertale). That being said, all puzzles have that first time encounter. Where the problem is new and fresh to you and your engagement is built there. Going back to Batman, if I wanted to, I could blow through every trophy quite easily now. I imagine a lot of you could do the same with Undertale if you wanted to do another playthrough. I imagine that if I went back the frustration I found in certain areas would be nonexistent because I would already know the catch. Though, the thing is, the entire playthrough for me was this, frustration. Not like the Arkham games where it's one section of the game (and not as in your face about solving them). You're right, my previous opinions with the game can't really be chalked up as flaws if you're looking straight at the game the way most others do. For me though, it still means that I have a playthrough of a game in my memory that just wasn't fun. That's detrimental to any game for me.

It's easier to see the game from this light and dismiss the flaws I originally had but that still doesn't change that fact that during my initial run I literally dragged myself to finish it. The game became a chore and that's one of my biggest sins a game can ever commit. Sure is subsequent playthroughs a few of my issues might not be there but that's asking me to ignore my first whole gampley experience with the game entirely. That's... going to take some time at the very least.

4 hours ago, Kaze no Klonoa said:

Undertale is imo probably one of the least demanding games I've played this year, when comparing it against Metal Gear Solid V, Fallout 4, etc. It's a game that rewards patience and attention, you'll be able to easily achieve the best ending without a guide if you catch the clues of the dialogue and try all of the options and abilities you have. Sans telling you constantly time after time about that blue attack should be enough to tell the player that paying attention to the dialogue is crucial. It's not Myst's levels of "Find something, jot down clues in a piece of paper".

 

3 hours ago, Sean said:

I did the whole game without looking up a guide once. I thought it was a fairly intuitive game, myself. Though I did ask a friend for help on a certain boss halfway.

 

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its a game that really isn't that difficult to figure out; its really all about paying attention to detail and piecing things together. I don't really consider that counter-intuitive, but then I'm the type of gamer who looks for detail when  I play.

Like I said early, I realize a lot of the difficulty I found with the game should be dealt with in other playthroughs. Though, that still won't solve the issue I have with the bullet-time gameplay. It's a gameplay style that's very polarizing honestly. Sure, some people will find it to be no problem at all and maybe even easy with their reflexes but I was not one of them. There were boss encounters in the game that I still don't know how I got past because I only had a sliver of hp left and could of sworn I was dead until the game gave me a bit of mercy. It's gameplay that becomes a chore for me. I know this isn't everyone's viewpoint but the game honestly made me question whether I really wanted to finish it or not at times. I haven't felt this way about a game since Heroes. Unless other playthroughs change up the gameplay I might just have to chalk this one down to just not being my thing

4 hours ago, Kaze no Klonoa said:

Did you finish the game in True Pacifist? I read your post and I'm still not sure if you did, since the game's "neutral" ending was intended to be ultimately unsatisfying.

That's the thing. I just don't think I can pull myself through that gameplay anymore. The game might possibly have the best characterization this side of the industry but the gameplay just left such a bad taste in my mouth that literally every sign just point to me watching a playthrough to continue the narrative. Maybe somewhere down the line I'll revisit it and see if my viewpoint changes (hell, that's what I had to do with Arkham City my first go and look where that turned out XD) but as of now... I'm just hard pressed to say that this game wasn't fun for me... in any aspect of gameplay... which is what a game should be. The story has me hooked to the world but the gameplay has the potential to just kill it all for me. I really want to see where other routes lead but I honestly think that's just best left for me watching a playthrough of it, least it be more of a chore.

 

Again guys, please understand that I don't find this game actually terrible. If I had to find a term for it, it'd be innovative at the least. It's just, at this time, I can't push myself to play something that's not fun to me. The narrative is already enough to keep me invested in the series but it might be a while before I actually load the game back up.

[Nerfuffle]

21 hours ago, sonicgirl313 said:

That's actually the theory that I watched, though it makes you wonder if Frisk really died, how does the save/reset happens.

Though the more I think about it, the fact that it’s a neutral run ending implies that you have killed at least one monster up until that point. (And got EXP and LUV from it)