Undertale (PC, PS4, Switch) & Deltarune (PC DEMO)

[DBZHedgy]

I figured it out because in my second playthrough the game asks me if there's anything else I can do other than Act and Fight.

That pretty much made it crystal clear for me. Regardless though, you can't get a pacifist run on your first playthrough (or so I've heard?) so it isn't too big of a problem imo.

[Sean]

You CAN get a pacifist ending on your first playthrough, you simply can't get it without seeing the neutral ending first.

[Phos]

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You still have to somehow intuit that her remark on running away was not just an accusation of you being a coward based on all the running away from her you've done up to that point, that it isn't simply a reference to the green soul being unable to move (because it can't so this seems correct), and that you'll exit the battle behind her for some reason.  

Playing a neutral run and then having to start over for a true pacifist run sounds like a great way to make someone really not like this game, save some random dialog acknowledging that you've done so, you're playing the exact same game a second time.  If I'm being honest, the game should just tell you to reload your save if you played pacifist through the ruins then kill Toriel (which will probably have been by accident, I might add)

 This is all coming off as a lot more negative than I really intended for it to, though.  My favorite parts of this game are mostly the incidental characters.  It's not that I didn't like the more important characters (Sans & Papyrus, Alphie) just happen too often and for too long.  Maybe that's (part of) the point about affection for your kinda annoying friends, but at some point you have to play it.  The best parts of the game for me have to be Muffet ( I get some real Ninja Gaiden vibes from her theme for some reason), Bratty and Catty, and Mettaton, at least until he transformed.  He was OK, but I really prefered him as a rectangle.  

FWIW, That same text box also says that sometimes fighting an enemy will sometimes cause them to surrender.  This part of the game really bugs me, what was Toriel's plan?  She won't let you pass, isn't planning on finishing you off, and doesn't wish to be talked down.  The option to flee doesn't appear... so was her plan to be killed there?  I don't get the thought process.  This is like that time Bunnie Rabbot got de roboticized and remembered that she could no longer fly so she took a hoverboard thing to reach the front, but somehow hadn't thought of what she was going to do when she got there... Even though she would have had to come up with a way to get there

Technically I think you can find the thread leading to 

True lab

But only if you either drop what you were doing and go to back to Papyrus's house (or wherever it is that you pick up this thread, for all I know you just have to intuit where Undyne's house is) when you get a phone call in the middle of set of puzzles, or remember the same after opening a shortcut back to boat person.  Just, remember the typical level of useful information Papyrus actually gives you.  

[Wraith]

Felt the need to post about this game since I just beat it yesterday. 

Best indie game ever? I don't know. Maybe. It definitely broke the top 3 for me which is no easy thing to do. It's up there with Shovel Knight now. While Shovel Knight succeeded primarily on it's mechanics and game design with a story backing it up, Undertale was the opposite. In fact, I question how much I'd like the gameplay if the story wasn't there to keep pushing me along. The two actually compliment eachother really well, with the story being paced well enough that you'll never be bored and the gameplay offering enough twists on the turn based JRPG formula that I liked it well enough it despite never really liking the genre before. 

The story and characters caught me off guard with how in depth they managed to be. The actual main cast is pretty small, but the way they're woven into the experience means they show up just enough to do their own little charming thing without being too overbearing. The way they react to your actions throughout the game is pretty amazing too. They did think about every choice the player could make and how it would affect everyone else. This is probably the one game I've played where choices TRULY matter, if only because the characters are lovable enough that you'll regret disappointing them, screwing them over, or even killing them. 

Special shout out to Flowey for actually being the best villain I've seen in a game in a long time. I still can't believe they managed to make such an evil bastard and the turn around and somehow make me feel bad for him. That's straight up great writing. Sparing him in the neutral final boss was tough before I knew more about him, but in the Pacifist run it felt like there was no other choice BUT to spare him. The extra details the Pacifist area added made all the difference. 

I went with the Pacifist Route on my first go, which was probably a mistake since I basically have no urge to even bother with a Genocide run after working my ass off for that happy ending, so I'm done with the game for now.  Straight up refusing to kill some of these bosses made the game way more challenging, but I feel like it was more fun this way. The battle system wouldn't really hold up if you played it like a typical JRPG. Avoiding enemy attacks and finding ways to connect with them was fun, even if some of the things you had to do to calm enemies down were kind of unclear.

I had no problem with Toreil though, so I don't get the people complaining about that one. If you don't want to hurt her, don't hurt her. 

Overall, yeah this is easily Game of the Year. Best game I've played in a while.  Oh, and the soundtrack

 

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by Wraith

[JezMM]

FWIW, That same text box also says that sometimes fighting an enemy will sometimes cause them to surrender.  This part of the game really bugs me, what was Toriel's plan?  She won't let you pass, isn't planning on finishing you off, and doesn't wish to be talked down.  The option to flee doesn't appear... so was her plan to be killed there?  I don't get the thought process.  This is like that time Bunnie Rabbot got de roboticized and remembered that she could no longer fly so she took a hoverboard thing to reach the front, but somehow hadn't thought of what she was going to do when she got there... Even though she would have had to come up with a way to get there

You can flee from Toriel though.  She says something like "Good child, now go back upstairs".  Naturally though while you can obey her, the game cannot progress with this, she remains in a perpetual state of being just about to destroy the exit of the ruins for when you go back to confront her again.  So that, followed by her destroying the exit, was probably the best outcome for the situation in her head, even though obviously the game can't allow that to actually happen without going so far as to break the flow with some kind of false ending and making the player reload if they want to continue playing.

Edited October 27, 2015 by JezMM

[Phos]

Finally went back and beat flowy and then got the true ending, and ran into teo separate instances of misdirection on the way:

everyone says that ghost in Undyne's neighbor, but that house next to his has nothing to do with Undyne. Next, a note says a key item is in a bed, does it have anything to do with the one that's been turned down and you can lay in? No, it's a nearby bed that is just slightly unmade. 

But yeah top notch writing and character stuff. That side facing Sprite of Undyne is pretty bad, as I've mentioned, and I think it's because it has no jaw line, her head is just an oval, even from the side. Still, some great stuff with her. They should put her in Dota so you can finally make an entire team out of fish people. 

Yahzee wrote a thing about this game, for extra punctuation, calling the best written game of the year, which I think it wins pretty handily. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by Phos

[JezMM]

Finally went back and beat flowy and then got the true ending, and ran into teo separate instances of misdirection on the way:

everyone says that ghost in Undyne's neighbor, but that house next to his has nothing to do with Undyne. Next, a note says a key item is in a bed, does it have anything to do with the one that's been turned down and you can lay in? No, it's a nearby bed that is just slightly unmade.

The former is definitely confusing, I miss Undyne's house ENTIRELY on my first run simply because I didn't make the connection of fish lady = fish house since you haven't seen Undyne's face at the point where you can first encounter her house.  So the house was seen but forgotten about.  In addition, since Papyrus' phone call about hanging out appears right in the middle of your battle with Undyne, I actually focused more on it as a joke than as a serious hint on the side quest, and once the battle was over, I was more enticed by exploring Hotland and seeing what happened next and forgot all about the call.

As for the latter though, I can't say I had any issue with that puzzle myself.  There's only 9 beds and nothing getting in the way of you checking each one.  I think the one you can sleep in is a deliberate red herring.  And, honestly:

 

I found the True Lab so creepy still at this point that I was actually SUPER tense during what happens when you lie down in the bed.  I hadn't figured out yet that the Amalgamates were friendly deep down yet (the bed scene is kind of what made me start to realise that actually, very nice) and the music and atmosphere was so intimidating.  Both the bed and the shower curtain scene I was wincing because I didn't yet know whether the game might stoop to jumpscares at all lol.  Doesn't help that I played True Lab at like 4am while slightly sleep deprived (or more of... DID help amazingly for the atmosphere).

[DBZHedgy]

 

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I honestly find that pretty hard to believe unless you've gone in knowing a bit more than an average player.

For one, a frog at the beginning says that enemies may yield and stop fighting if they get hurt enough, so many people tend to assume that she'll stop fighting after a while, especially since she says that she wants to test you, and to see if you are strong enough to survive out there on your own.

Not only that, but unlike regular enemies, Toriel doesn't just decide to go friendly once you use an Act command like everything else you've faced up to that point. It's practically impossible to figure out on your first run unless you reset and try again, because the game makes you accustomed to what regular enemies do, and since this is the first boss one would assume that they'd be similar in sparing. 

 

[Wraith]

 

I honestly find that pretty hard to believe unless you've gone in knowing a bit more than an average player.

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  I actually went in the game knowing nothing about it except for the fact that a flower with a face was in it, so yeah. A friend just gifted it to me one day.

There's a point before that where the game points out that you can hit spare before enemies turn yellow for different reactions. It doesn't happen that often but it does occasionally. 

Maybe I was just thinking about the game differently than most, but I never even considered attacking enemies from the get go aside from as a last resort. This tripped me up at one point later in the game where you HAVE to attack, but I got by with that mindset for the most part. Toriel also reacts differently to the spare command every time you press it, which was a hint for me that I should just try doing that. I think people who immediately attacked her sort of jumped the gun. 

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by Wraith

[DBZHedgy]

  I actually went in the game knowing nothing about it except for the fact that a flower with a face was in it, so yeah. A friend just gifted it to me one day.

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I don't really think that people jumped the gun when people attacked her because she doesn't react immediately when you spare her. Her face stays the same and she doesn't say anything at all, which would usually tip players off to think that she can't be consoled. Especially since she already told you three times to go back to your room, and that she's attacking you that could very well kill you if you aren't careful.

Kudos to you though, it wasn't as apparent for me on my first run, but since you got it (not only that, but the entirety of the pacifist run on your first playthrough) then you've just been one step ahead of pretty much everyone else. I've yet to meet a person who's spared Toriel on the first run until now.

[Brad]

As somebody who killed Toriel, I can say that doing so definitely added to my emotional investment to the story and made me even more determined on the second runthrough when Flowey challenged me to hurt nobody. 

[Kaze no Klonoa]

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I also managed to figure it out in my first run of the game as well. I ended up killing Toriel but tried to reverse the situation by resetting to my last save. I also noticed Toriel's reaction to sparing, so I went with it all the way and won the battle without killing her.

And then Flowey commented at me for doing it, which was absolutely mind-blowing, and kind of a harsh wake-up call for me.

[DBZHedgy]

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:V

Well, I mean yeah, but that doesn't count because you did it after you realized that attacking her killed her so

[Kaze no Klonoa]

:V

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I couldn't handle the guilt ;_;

[JezMM]

I was chatting to a friend of mine the other day about their playing of the game, and saying how they'd accidentally killed Toriel but decided not to save and to go back and spare her.

I was trying my best not to grin like an idiot, knowing that Flowey was gonna call her out on what she did.

[DaBatGuy]

I just finished my attempt at a genocide run, ultimately Sans was successful in squandering all my DETERMINATION.

As for my opinion of the game, it’s great, as expected. I like the world, the humor worked most of the time, the meta-RPG subversions were intriguing, the characters are endearing, music is phenomenal, and the battle mechanics/boss fights are unique and memorable.

     However there are two things that keep me from praising it as the *Second coming of RPG-esus* like most people seem to. The first is navigating the overworld is a chore, Frisk’s walking speed is painfully slow and without a map or decent quick travel feature (the river-person’s boat rides are slow and destination limited) backtracking was almost unbearable.

 After beating Asriel in my pacifist run I was more aggravated than excited about having to backtrack across the entire underground to see all the positive changes I made.

 

 If there were some way to warp between save points or at least have a run button this could have been somewhat alleviated.

The other thing holding this game back for me is the unique gimmick itself and the hype surrounding it.

     Despite loving these characters and the tragedy surrounding them at no point in any of my playthroughs did I bawl my eyes out or at least get misty eyed, even as I murdered all the friends I made in the previous playthrough. Why? Because the moment I learned that this game could be beat without killing anyone to affect the ending and that it would “have all the feels” I knew exactly what the game was trying to do even before I started playing. Any game with a player-controlled moral compass tries to make you feel like a sick bastard for doing the renegade route. Before I even walked on stage to be the protagonist of this play I knew Toby Fox was a puppeteer attempting to pull on my heartstrings.

     I knew it would do a purely black and white depiction of Pacifism vs Violence.  In fact I was disappointed they didn’t go a bit deeper and subvert the moral choice. Of course the Ghandi route lead to the anime flavored friendship hugbox that redeemed the final villain and let’s everyone live happily ever after, because that’s what real life is like,… right? I wish the game was able to show that, just like humans, not every single monster is capable or worthy of redemption, that some situations could and should have been solved by making the not so altruistic choice.

     Also the meta narrative about the player being a pseudo-god to the NPC’s, freely able to create or destroy their world at any moment just to see what would happen, fell flat. Yes Flowey, I know I’m being heartless killer from your perspective but no matter much you guys try to break that fourth wall you’ll always just be code and pixels. It’s still just a video game. It’s still just fiction.

     Trying to recontextualize my actions in other games with the same “you were the real monster the whole time” framing that Undertale has is a severe lack of self-awareness. The only reason people choose to play the genocide route is because the choice is given to player and it leads to progression of the story in some form. However in other games the “genocide” option is the only option. I can run from battle and talk to all the NPCs I want but the story will refuse to change. Should I feel bad for not making choices that were never possible for me to make in those games?

     You might be thinking that I’m just soulless and can’t feel emotional from a video game which is untrue; Okami had me crying like a baby during the final battle. Years later I still can’t listen to “The Sun Rises” without getting teary. Until that happened I had no expectations for my actions throughout the game to have such an impact on the ending, for all the good deed and friends I made to return the favor in the most dire situation, with a bombastic orchestral version of the main theme backing it. Just like Undertale. However, unlike Undertale I didn’t start the game knowing that my actions would be so important and come full circle at the end.  Maybe if I were able to play the game completely blind to the hype and its moral gimmick I could have fell into the emotional traps that were obvious enough to have been set up by Papyrus himself.

[DBZHedgy]

tbh, I felt that way going in without even knowing that there was a morality system ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I cannot stress the backtracking point enough though.

It's also sort of funny how none of the monsters have done anything reprehensible without having some sort of good intent backing it when pretty much everything that the humans have done (until you come along) were negative. One being the War, and the humans trapping them underground, and the other being Chara/Whatever you named the first human's actions, which got Asriel killed, and made everything go to crap to begin with.

Edited October 29, 2015 by DBZEdgy

[JezMM]

Maybe if I were able to play the game completely blind to the hype and its moral gimmick I could have fell into the emotional traps that were obvious enough to have been set up by Papyrus himself.

Basically yeah.  I think it's unfair to criticise the game based on something it has no control over.

[Candescence]

I consider Undertale more of a commentary on violence in RPGs (and gaming in general) rather than a valid aesop. If you want a proper commentary on the notion of saving everyone, you should probably be looking at Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works and Fate/Zero instead. At the least, however, it's far better about it than Spec Ops: The Line, which mostly forces you to be an absolute bastard nearly all of the time and yet still has the gall to criticise you for it, as well-executed as the railroading otherwise is.

Though, really, as incredibly anime as the pacifist ending is (and I fucking love it for that), it's still rather bittersweet.

Poor Asriel.

[Phos]

If there's one thing I wish about this game's story,

It's that the sequence where all the various monsters are telling you Asriel's story while walking to the throne room garden was held off until you were on your way to the true pacifist ending.  I feel like that's where that belongs.   

[JezMM]

If there's one thing I wish about this game's story,

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Hm, personally I disagree and feel it works perfectly there.

It REALLY builds up to the idea that you're on your way out and Asgore will be the final encounter, making Flowey's appearance, and the fact that there's so much more to go to earn your happy ending, all the more surprising.  Then there's the fact that this long emotional sequence would destroy the "wait what" mood that is given by the mysterious voice and sudden terrifying ascent back up to New Home from the True Lab (and the exit being sealed behind you, leaving you with a final silent walk back to Asgore).  I also feel like the fanciful presentation of this story makes it more memorable, and remembering it is necessary to make head or tail out of the videotapes in the True Lab - viewing them the other way round would require you to digest a whole load of plain text backstory that makes no sense until later in one go.  Meanwhile the Asriel story stands alone and is memorable for it, meaning you can make more sense of the tapes later.

Also just... generally it'd make no sense for the monsters to only tell this story to you once you've met the True Pacifist ending conditions.  Those conditions don't in any way effect whether the monsters are there to tell the story or not.

PLUS it'd be concretely, formally introducing Asriel mere minutes before you meet him for real.  Hearing the story about him a good hour or so (or even a whole other playthrough) before you are likely to meet him gives you plenty of time to mull over the story, and have his appearance be as dramatic as it should be.

[DBZHedgy]

I think that the little story thing fits really well with the final outcome of the pacifist ending. If only for the fact that the game revealing that Asriel's actually a kindhearted soul who was manipulated by the first human fits so much better with him actually becoming your friend in the end, and you having to save him as well as every other soul that he absorbed. We don't even know who Flowey is in the Neutral run, so it would make plenty of sense to have the story that's focusing on Asriel in the same plotline that we get to meet him and learn why he's such a tragic character.

Also, the story, the music that accompanies it, and the monsters that tell the story (which would make even more sense in the pacifist run since you couldn't have killed any to get there) all fit so much better with the peace motif that the Pacifist ending encompasses. 

It would've been much more fitting if the walk to Asgore was as Silent as the Pacifist run's walk, because Asgore is the person you have to beat to win the game. As in, actually fight. 

EDIT: I mean, it could work regardless of whether it's in the Pacifist run or the Neutral run, but it fits much better with the Pacifist run because Asriel's tragic background is already thoroughly explained in the events of the pacifist run already. Adding that in at the end would only add icing on top of that. Whereas completing the Neutral run gives you the icing before you even order your cake. 

Having the story in the Neutral run is legitimately irrelevant to what's happening because no one even talks about Asriel, not even Asgore or Toriel. But it's like completely relevant in the Pacifist run because you figure out who Flowey is in that run.

Edited October 30, 2015 by DBZEdgy

[JezMM]

(Ending spoilers)

You have to do the Neutral run to reach the Pacifist run one way or another though.  Being honest while the game is structured like one with multiple endings, I really don't consider the neutral ending "valid" or it's own seperate thing in any sense.  Like if someone stopped there I wouldn't really say they've finished the game.  I doubt Toby would either considering the full credits are ONLY found at the end of the Pacifist run.  The only time where getting the story would be THAT out of touch would be if you've done a neutral run in which you killed everyone you encountered yet didn't mercilessly hunt down every random encounter enough to trigger a legit genocide run.  And even then the monsters in New Home don't know you've killed their friends necessarily.

[Kuzu]

I've been doing a good job of avoiding this topic, because it feels like you can'f fucking talk about it without beating it :V

Anyway, just got past Papyrus and I'm moving onto Undyne....who really wants me dead for some reason. Jeez. And wow, I never thought a moment I figured was so insignificant at the beginning of the game would come back to bite me in the ass two dungeons later.

[FriendBot]

I've been doing a good job of avoiding this topic, because it feels like you can'f fucking talk about it without beating it :V

Anyway, just got past Papyrus and I'm moving onto Undyne....who really wants me dead for some reason. Jeez. And wow, I never thought a moment I figured was so insignificant at the beginning of the game would come back to bite me in the ass two dungeons later.

BOOM! Butterfly effect!

Yeah, the game does that for a couple of things. Overall, Undertale does the Butterfly Effect better than Until Dawn.