Undertale (PC, PS4, Switch) & Deltarune (PC DEMO)

[JezMM]

Or, you could be a dirty cheater and get rid of the App Data files.

Is it "cheating" though?  The game is so meta I feel justified to say doing this is perfectly valid, as it's simply the case that

Your powers to SAVE were far greater than either Flowey or Chara could ever imagine.  =3c

[azoo]

About the true ending:

 

Personally I feel like it was way more fulfilling than the neutral ending could ever be. 

Yes, Omega / Photoshop Flowey's boss battle was insane in regards of tension as well as storytelling, but ultimately it was a borderline retread of the Giygas battle from EarthBound, which this game is inspired heavily by as-is. That being the end-all boss to this game would've not only been foreseeable from a mile away (since Toby Fox is a very well known member of the EB/MOTHER fan community), but kind of disappointing in regards of story content and closure. After all, the entire game (including that boss!) builds up just how powerful and ruthlessly crazy Flowey is, but leaves various pieces to the backstory out of place, so ending it right there would've left major plotholes open as to how Flowey could even do any of this in the first place, let alone why he was doing it.

And besides, not everyone in the story got the ultimate happy ending. If that was so, then Asriel would've been fully restored and brought back with them to the surface, and reunited with his parents.. but instead had to stay in the underground as a flower with his soul stripped back out. Toriel and Asgore would've also got back together (but didn't for big reasons of course), and THEN there's the problem where (genocide spoilers)

Sans has to live through every timeline restart, which is implied to happen only when the player decides to restart the game, and (triple spoilers)

 We didn't find out about Gaster, and the game gives no closure about him nor his relation to Sans and Papyrus

 

The game leaves a lot open to interpretation on where it goes and what happens, due to the open ends it leaves. I think it works perfectly and can't say the ending was underwhelming by any means.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Azoo

[Nepenthe]

 

I've not played the Mother series nor know of Toby Fox's influences, so any direct connections or homages were completely lost on me. Subsequently, I should play Genocide then to get more of a background understanding of Flowey, because as it stands the True Pacifist route smacked me upside the head by trying to suddenly make me empathize with a character that was background fodder for like 99% of the run time. As for comparing endings, I'm not talking solely in terms of just the boss fight itself, although the mechanics and their narrative resonance are great, but rather why the final decision to kill or spare was so emotionally resonant. The subtext within the action itself just speaks to what it means to be a forgiving person, which I find is very relevant in our culture, than Flowey's own drama just really can't match from my current point of view. Subsequently, my preference for the Neutral route's storytelling doesn't mean I would have wanted the game to have actually ended there. After all, I played True Pacifist because I had a vested interest in helping these monsters out. I just think the climax and backstory could have been built up better in the same way that the final decision in Neutral was built up.

[azoo]

 

And that very much is a turning point in the game, but that's what solidifies each run minus genocide, I think.

The true pacifist route is pretty much the route taken after you've decided how you feel about things and have taken on the game. Killing Flowey gives you no hint as to figure out what to do to find the great resolve of the whole story, but sparing him lets you figure out that there is more to learn. The game then goes on from there and bases it's set up around you saving yourself and everyone else. Sure, there isn't as much decision making at sake, but I think it makes it up for story exposition and character writing, which gets significantly more entangled and well done from there to the end imo.

And to be honest, I don't feel like anything about Asriel or the determination thing was really out of nowhere. The game builds you up to the story of it by the time you reach the castle and before judgement, and then the game gives you a whole last 1/4th of itself to find out the rest. I think the way Flowey was handled was kind of genius, because it makes you think the character himself is just a one-off with weird intent at the beginning of the game that you kind of forget about.. and by the time you see what he did to Asgore and take the souls, you start to wonder what else there is to this guy.

Or at least I did. And the final fourth of the game not only goes into who Asriel is, but what Alphys' work as the royal scientist is, what Toriel and Asgore's relationship was prior to all of this, and prepares you for the big WHAM that you may or may not be the kid everyone thinks you are.

Also, did you go back to the beginning of the game's map when you went and talked to everyone at the end?

Asriel is at the original pile of flowers you fell on, holding onto his existence while he still can. If you talk to him, he goes into how he felt about everything, who the other Fallen Child was as a person, and what he has to share with you before he disappears back into being a flower.

That said, genocide run gives a different perspective on who everyone is, and who you (the player) may possibly be helping. It's messed up (and in ways, tragic) as heck, but it overall completes the experience. I still think the ending to the pacifist run is the best ending I could ask for and I adore it, but while I got all I needed to know from reading a lot into it, maybe you need a bit more than I do, so that other run may help a bit, plus go into some insight on other characters you may not know too much about.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Azoo

[Phos]

I think a lot of my enjoyment of true pacifist came from the nature of flowey/asriel.  I felt as though continued existence in that state was a far worse punishment than the release of oblivion, and even if the true ending didn't leave him whole, it at least allowed him to scrape together something of a sense of empathy.  That Asriel isn't really saved is one of my favorite facets to the story, that great tragedy that is never really put right.  The final fight itself, for me I actually got a major Chrono Trigger vibe from it, but there was more to it.  I've always been a sucker for a struggle against the odds.  Not a stereotypical Shonen "Your attacks can't hurt me -> Your attacks hurt me now -> Now they don't hurt me anymore" kind of way, but of the Demon's Souls/Shadow of the Colossus "finding a way through adversity".  The image is more of the tiny ember clutched at by Anastacia rather than, well, what happens in One Piece or Bleach, character gets mangled beyond all reason, opponent talks about how they can't win, you know the drill.  Don't get me wrong, good Shonen can have its appeal, but that's not how I read it.  Back to that tiny ember example, when your health is 00.0000000001, you are that tiny flame.  

Gotta think, that rainbow beam, gotta be a super metroid homage. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Phos

[Kuzu]

Man, I wasn't expecting all of those feels in the final dungeon.

Like fucking hell man, the entire backstory, combined with Asgore completely subverting my expectations of an archetypal evil overlord from an RPG. It really doesn't get you excited to fight him at all....and what's worse, I don't believe there's any way I can spare him is there.

[sonicgirl313]

Man, I wasn't expecting all of those feels in the final dungeon.

Hidden Content

Actually you need to beat the game on the neutral route and then it'll give you the option to do the True Pacifist Ending. But to find that out you must spare the Neutral Final Boss. Also no worries, I'm not giving anything away about what happens. So you're good.

Edited December 20, 2015 by sonicgirl313

[Sean]

That's still pretty spoilery... Let him find that out for himself

[sonicgirl313]

Not so much as spoilery but more of walkthrough explanation. I didn't give away crucial plot details or even say who the final boss was so I think I'm good.

[Wraith]

 

It takes away some of the impact of said ending if you know what outcome you need to pick to get the desired result. It's also fair to assume nobody wants any help with a game while they're playing it unless they actually ask you for it. I suggest editing that.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Wraith

[JezMM]

Undertale is defintely a game best experienced knowing as little as possible before going in.  As a rule I tend to only respond to people's questions about the game if they've reached a point where all necessary information has been presented to them as intended by the game and they STILL aren't getting something that I feel will affect their enjoyment/progress if they aren't given a hint*.  Just outwardly telling people what choices they should make at a point they have yet to reach will definitely affect their experience.

 

*For example:

If someone finished the neutral ending and began talking to me as if they were done with the game, I'd gently question whether they spared Flowey, on the assumption that they didn't and thus didn't get the hint of the best ending.  I'd probably give them a nudge to continue playing in that case.

[sonicgirl313]

Okay okay, I see your point. My honest mistake. I'll put it in spoilers.

[Kuzu]

I have an idea on how to deal with this particular boss, so don't worry. 

[sonicgirl313]

So I made my first Undertale fan art. I'll stick it in the spoiler down below as not to reveal crucial plot points of the game.

[Dejablue]

I'm not sure how I feel about this game. I like it. I actually do really like it. But is not a perfect game.  I can't really say much about the gameplay itself, I like bullet hell stuff, at least, casually I do.  But anyway besides that, it's the morals that this game presents, or fails to present properly that make me have issues with this game. I think Undertale is a great game until I think about how lazily the morality of "Violence is wrong" is portrayed. Especially when it comes to characters like Flowey who give me 0 reason to spare his life other than "Well this is the game where I get to the end without killing a single monster, so I guess I'll spare him."

Flowey is a psychopath, a monster who has admitted to killing other monsters just because he can, and restarting time and doing it over and over again. When given the option, there is no logical reason to spare him. He even says that if you let him live, he'll keep doing what he does. Not only that, the game does very little at even hinting at or giving clues as to why I should care about Flowey who as canon states has no soul, and is a genocidal maniac. It's like sparing a rabid dog. You don't. You shoot rabid dogs. So basically sparing someone like him is foolish.

Of course pacifist shows you who Flowey is actually supposed to be, but say you do a neutral run first? How were you supposed to know this? It's not fair to punish the player because they lacked the knowledge required to make certain choices.

I wish to discuss this. Because I think this game is kind of overrated.

But on a positive note I love the skeletons and I want Sans to be my husubando.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[Diogenes]

Of course pacifist shows you who Flowey is actually supposed to be, but say you do a neutral run first? How were you supposed to know this? It's not fair to punish the player because they lacked the knowledge required to make certain choices.

Are you punished, though? You can kill him if you want. You can kill him, leave the underground, and that's that. No one calls you out on it. No one tells you you're a bad person for it. It doesn't even change the ending, aside from you not getting a tip on how to get the pacifist ending.

That choice is entirely yours to make.

[FriendBot]

I think the fact that you can spare Flowey kind of tells a strong message in of itself.

I mean, as Dio said, nothing really changes if you kill Flowey or not so it's pretty a moral thing. 

I think Sans in the Genocide Run says it quite well.

Do you think even the worst person can still be good?

Just because he has no soul, doesn't mean he has no emotion.

He's scared of the player/Frisk at the end of the Genocide Run. 

He tries to convince YOU to not do a full reset of the universe and the fact HE says that he doesn't have the heart to do it all over again at the end of the Pacifist Run.

It also helps that he has a strong bond with Chara, so yeah Flowey some sort of passion but I guess the only reason he feels that way because he was close to him before he became a flower.

Think you might need to think it over dude. 

[Dejablue]

But it's hella immoral not to kill Flowey. With his determination, he resets time and continues killing monsters. Doesn't it make sense to kill him? You're right tho, since I don't think you can save your progress after you fight Asgore and Flowey anyway, killing them bears no weight on which neutral ending you receive. At least I assume so...I'm not so sure about Asgore.

I've thought it over and I've concluded that given how easy it is for Flowey to kill people, him suddenly face heel turning like that feels like a massive asspull. It's contrived, it feels like anime. Sure Flowey has emotions, but not many people WANT to die. Especially if death comes at the price of a violent stabby end. Flowey realized the monster he had created was coming for him so of course he was going to beg for mercy. Cowards beg. But as he stated in neutral runs, he'd do it all over again. So in order to save everyone from such a horrible fate, I kill Flowey.  It feels the most appropriate ending given the knowledge the player has at their disposal. You know, batman is actually a very bad person for allowing psychopaths to live. After repeatedly capturing them. I feel like sparing Flowey in a neutral run is just like that.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[FriendBot]

It's contrived, it feels like anime.

Well to be fair, Undertale is pretty much an anime after all, it is real.

...right? 

[Sean]

 

Flowey lost the power to use SAVE when the player character enters the Underground. Only one person in the UG can SAVE at a time. So no he can't just reset time and kill everyone again.

[Dejablue]

He tells you that if you let him live he'll come back.

[Sean]

Oh out of curiosity, do you remember what Flowey tells you when you spare him?

[FriendBot]

You know, Flowey is kind of like what we would be if we really did do everything possible in the game.

I mean, Flowey said in the Genocide Run that he has experienced every details and line there is (of course, he probably doesn't know Gaster but that's ok). Since people are trying to explore every possible dialogue choice and detail in the game, then people (not all) will probably feel detached to the game. 

And then one might not care whether they kill or spare the cast.

I feel that Flowey is a negative view of replayability on gaming personified. Where he thinks he's above all consequences and to be fair, he is since Flowey had the power of SAVE until Frisk came along.

[Dejablue]

That he doesn't understand and then he runs away...because flowers can run. Lol.

[Sean]

I'm sure there was something else he was supposed to say assuming you did a pacifist run... Maybe load the game again and see if you missed anything?