Undertale (PC, PS4, Switch) & Deltarune (PC DEMO)

[Dejablue]

Flowey might very well be what happens when a grouping of pixels gains understanding that they are trapped in a video game. If I were trapped in a video game I'd be pissed to.

[FriendBot]

I'm sure there was something else he was supposed to say assuming you did a pacifist run... Maybe load the game again and see if you missed anything?

The happens after the phone call

[DBZHedgy]

On the previous note, I'd like to say that it's extremely bitter to have to option to spare the monster that Flowey is even after all he's done, and yet when you do just that, no one gives you the second chance you want. Everyone who remembers what you did will never forgive you for what you did, even if you make everything perfect again.

I get that no one forces you to spare him

or asriel by extension

but it feels so wrong for the game to demonize the player for what could simply be, in a best case scenario, curiosity. At least those who chose to do one would have the decency to go back and fix everything, which, again, is bitter because no one who remembers will forgive you anyway. 

[Dejablue]

I'm sure there was something else he was supposed to say assuming you did a pacifist run... Maybe load the game again and see if you missed anything?

I honestly don't remember. I only remember him saying that he doesn't understand why you're sparing him. "Why are you being so nice to me?" 

[Sean]

Ah well there's actually a bit of game left for you to check out, assuming you're interested in continuing. There's a cute little scenario that plays when you exit the CORE after getting the ending, if you spent some time with Papyrus and Undyne earlier.

[Dejablue]

On the previous note, I'd like to say that it's extremely bitter to have to option to spare the monster that Flowey is even after all he's done, and yet when you do just that, no one gives you the second chance you want. Everyone who remembers what you did will never forgive you for what you did, even if you make everything perfect again.

I get that no one forces you to spare him

Hidden Content

but it feels so wrong for the game to demonize the player for what could simply be, in a best case scenario, curiosity. At least those who chose to do one would have the decency to go back and fix everything, which, again, is bitter because no one who remembers will forgive you anyway. 

Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of the monsters. Flowey is just one thing I have issue with in this game.

[FriendBot]

Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of the monsters.

What hypocrisy? I could use some context here.

[DBZHedgy]

Even though I think it's the game that's hypocritical in this sense, there are some cases where the Monsters are pretty hypocritical themselves.

Like how quickly they're ready to jump on you and kill you and when you kill someone they demonize you, Undyne especially. Self-Defense? What's that? Not only that but they've already taken 6 human souls already, and by the looks of it, none of those humans killed anyone at all.

[FriendBot]

and by the looks of it, none of those humans killed anyone at all.

Are you really sure that none of the kids killed anyone?

I mean, Undyne has an eyepatch for a reason

and she does have determination by, what I can assume, is the pink globby stuff you find at Alphys' room that she probably ate.

[DBZHedgy]

If they did kill anyone I doubt the people of Snowdin would be so welcoming of Frisk when they arrive. :V

Or... any monster for that matter, no one seems afraid of Frisk in anyway unless they become a genocidal maniac.

EDIT: Well... any monster that isn't Undyne. lol Basically the NPCs and stuff

Edited December 22, 2015 by DBZHedgy

[Diz]

You know, Flowey is kind of like what we would be if we really did do everything possible in the game.

Hidden Content

I, too, found this interesting! Regarding this, there is also the following to add:

It is mentioned that Flowey lost all emotions once he became a flower. He said he could not feel anything. Being this detached in the first place I think is just as big a part, if not bigger, of why he was able to become such a monster and actually enjoy doing this. This is not only hinted toward in the Genocide run, but also in the Pacifist run, where in his Asriel form he says he wants you to forget about him, because once he becomes a flower, he knows he will lose all his emotions again and basically become a heartless entity.

[DBZHedgy]

Hidden Content

Yeah.... but that kinda loses it's weight once you reboot the game and he practically begs you not to reset and to let everyone live happily in the Pacifist Run.

and that when he tried experimenting with his SAVE that he knew doing the bad stuff was bad, and that he was only doing it because he HAD to know what would happen. Just because he's emotionless it doesn't mean that what he does is forgivable in any sense tbh. Especially since of the previously stated fact.

[Dejablue]

I think it would've been better if, like...Monsters wandered around on the map between areas. And you have to choose to fight them at all.
But then people would accuse it of being a walking simulator. Oh well, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Or even better, make it so you can pacify an area. I mean why would you keep having to spare every critter over and over again. You'd think eventually they'd get it. "Oh this person is nice, I shouldn't kill them." Spare enough critters and an area becomes safe. Your reputation is more or less solidified. I mean you can do that in a genocide by killing everyone everywhere. Basically grinding so you're strong enough to fight Sans. It makes me wonder why mercy doesn't have that option. You keep having to prove your mercy again and again until the END of the game. And THEN everyone decides to pitch in.

More or less I think this is why the monsters are hypocrites. The canon doesn't say who's fault it was as to why the war started. Just that a war started. And as the cards fell, humans won. We assume too much to believe humans are 100 percent to blame here, all we know is that the Monsters lost. And then on top of that we know that a misunderstanding is what got Asriel killed, the humans attacked out of fear and ignorance.

Hey guess what the monsters do throughout the whole game! Guess who never gets called out for it?

Simple oversights like this wreck the narrative.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[sonicgirl313]

I thought the message was about being the better person and not that violence is bad, or at least that's what I got from it. That it seemed to say "Even if you encounter the most despicable person on Earth, you must never let yourself drop to their level.

Hence why you're given the option to spare Flowey, basically it asking you if will drop to his level by killing him, or would do you choose to be better than him and let him live.

Though note I'm not saying that the moral is a good one though, believe me How to Train your Dragon 2 showed where that kind of thinking gets ya. 

[Mogtaki]

But...if the monsters didn't have that random encounter system, it wouldn't be following the RPG format. The reason it has it in the first place is to be a game. Flowey even emphasises that it's a game several times and you can just 'reset' and start over. Seems a bit nitpicky to try and go after the game for that when that's the point of the game.

Isn't that the same as complaining about the encounter system in any RPG that has random encounters?

[Dejablue]

But...if the monsters didn't have that random encounter system, it wouldn't be following the RPG format. The reason it has it in the first place is to be a game. Flowey even emphasises that it's a game several times and you can just 'reset' and start over. Seems a bit nitpicky to try and go after the game for that when that's the point of the game.

Isn't that the same as complaining about the encounter system in any RPG that has random encounters?

The RPG system in and of itself is ok. But Toby Fox tried to "be original" and just made a bunch of mistakes instead. Like the fact that killing even one monster will knock you out of a pacifist run. It contradicts the story that these creatures continually attack you.  Self defense isn't stooping to anyone's level.  The only time killing a monster is wrong is when you betray kill them. But it's implied that the same specific monsters will come after you even after you've spared them, and yet humans are somehow the bad guys. Why? 

It's not only logical to kill someone as dangerous as Flowey, it's right to kill someone as dangerous as Flowey. And the characters will be very harsh towards you depending on what you've done, ignoring the fact that they've let a 9 year old travel across their hostile terrain alone. Remember, Sans is the only character besides Flowey who knows that death isn't permanent. You would think Undyne, captain of the royal guard, would have been more proactive in helping you through your journey than all the nothing she does besides trying to murder you.

It's not the same as any other RPG because in Final Fantsy nobody thinks the monsters in those games have jobs and families. You kill them because they jump in front of you and impede progress, because they're just mindless animals that want to kill you, or in the case of grinding, because you need Exp. But in Undertale, the random monsters never learn that  attacking children is wrong. But Toby made these monsters sapient creatures who know right from wrong.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[Mega]

Problem with that is that even if you lower a monster's health, you CAN spare them. Most of the ones that die in a single hit don't even try to hurt you to begin with or are sparable immediately, like Whimsuns and Moldsmal, or you can spare them so quickly-- quicker than it'd be to intentionally kill 'em.

[Dejablue]

Gameplay wise it's fine. But as far as the story goes the monsters never say. "Maybe killing humans isn't a good idea."  In this case, is allowing hypothetical and literal monsters back up to the surface even a good idea?

 

Problem with that is that even if you lower a monster's health, you CAN spare them. Most of the ones that die in a single hit don't even try to hurt you to begin with or are sparable immediately, like Whimsuns and Moldsmal, or you can spare them so quickly-- quicker than it'd be to intentionally kill 'em.

 It's kind of implied that some of the monsters you face are the same ones from previous encounters, not just different examples of the same type. These monsters are jerks, and I'm supposed to feel bad if they die?

Like, these things aren't asking Frisk out to a pizza party. They are trying to kill you.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[Dejablue]

Sorry accidental double post.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[Mega]

But who said they're actively trying to kill? Their flavor text doesn't imply that at all. Stuff like "Froggit hops close," etc, doesn't necessarily mean murderous intent. Within the story, the only ones actively trying to kill you are Undyne, the CORE enemies, and one or two others.

And even then, when you read the lore involving the war between humans and monsters and how monsters were massacred and easily overpowered by the humans, I think they have a right to at least be defending themselves.

[Dejablue]

But who said they're actively trying to kill? Their flavor text doesn't imply that at all. Stuff like "Froggit hops close," etc, doesn't necessarily mean murderous intent. Within the story, the only ones actively trying to kill you are Undyne, the CORE enemies, and one or two others.

And even then, when you read the lore involving the war between humans and monsters and how monsters were massacred and easily overpowered by the humans, I think they have a right to at least be defending themselves.

Defending themselves against a child. Wow such bravery. The player isn't actively seeking to harm any monster, the whole concept of random encounters is that a monster has stepped in front of you. The flavor text means nothing if the attacks they send out eventually kill you. And according to the lore, the start of the war is shrouded in mystery. Humans were the stronger force but so what? For all we know, Monsters should have never picked a fight with such a stronger enemy. All I see is monsters trying to kill a kid, but I'm the bad guy if I kill even 1 monster.

[Nepenthe]

The monsters aren't defending themselves if you're never attacking them in a neutral/pacifist run, and it is possible to perform acts that cause curious or pacifist actions that still nonetheless result in the same attack you'd get if you were doing genocide. I've died once or twice in a neutral/pacifist run outside of bosses before. It is a flaw of the game's ludonarrative, but its impact on the experience is going to depend upon how far you want to take the "mechanics as narrative" angle.

[Mega]

The start of the war isn't a mystery, though. o_o THe text outrates states that the humans attacked first, and for reasons unclear except for perhaps a fear that the monsters would absorb human souls. Don't remember the text entirely but part of it was like, "Indeed, [the humans] had nothing to lose." Moreover, humans are so much more powerful than monsters that even a CHILD is dangerous due to the power of human souls. I mean, you do still raise valid points, but given how easy it is to pacify monsters, I personally never saw the bulk of 'em as murderous.

[Dejablue]

"A monster with a human soul, a horrible beast with unfathomable power."

In order for war to break out, looks like some monsters were killing humans, and if the power was unfathomable, then many humans might have died before the war. So the war wasn't unprovoked. Monsters were being...well...monsters. And suffered the consequences.

Now I'll argue that the humans didn't need to massacre the monsters. But they were driven by fear and ignorance. And fear and ignorance is what makes the monsters of underground attack Frisk. So at the end of the day, what lesson am I supposed to be learning? That humans are assholes? That seems to be the only consistent message.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dejablue

[FriendBot]

So at the end of the day, what lesson am I supposed to be learning? 

The lesson is that things can be settled in a pacifistic manner, going the ol' Gandhi way?