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The Nintendo Switch Thread

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1 minute ago, Tornado said:

Companies are being "asses" to the Wii U because it has bombed out on the market and wasn't designed very well. Stop projecting.

It's one thing to say that, as that's understandable. Using "it's not hardcore" is another thing entirely and just dickish. That I would say is being a ass, even if there was a legit reason. Use the legit reason, not some 5 year old excuse.

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1 minute ago, KHCast said:

It's one thing to say that, as that's understandable. Using "it's not hardcore" is another thing entirely and just dickish. That I would say is being a ass, even if there was a legit reason. Use the legit reason, not some 5 year old excuse.

http://www.nowgamer.com/wii-u-owners-dont-want-hardcore-games-says-ubisoft/

 

"The game we already had to develop an entirely separate version for didn't sell very well" seems like a perfectly legitimate reason to me.

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That title is misleading as fuck. Considering the market on Wii U was already small, it was pretty obvious that sales on it wouldn't be crazy. I wouldn't say it's cause people didn't want "hardcore" games. It's more the poor sales of the system more than the actual people.

 

Was the system obviously a failed experiment that people could see from a mile away, yes, I'm not denying that it was a shitty time for Nintendo. What does this at this point have to do with my original point? Oh, the companies make dumb choices thing. Well, it was a bad example maybe, though that doesn't null and void that companies do make dumb decisions. Square made 3 FF13 games, one of them has a paid DLC true ending necessary to understand whatever the hell LR was about. Companies put microtransactions in 60 dollar games, Ubisoft constantly excuses shitty frame rate with the "cinematic" bullshit, Young Conker exists. Companies can be and are very stupid at times. And Lordy lord Nintendo is not excempt from this. The battle of copyright with them is the best example of the stupidity they can have.

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7 hours ago, Gambling Idol Luka said:

I highly doubt MS paid to get KHIII on the Xbox One. As said, the HD collections ran on a weird engine designed for PS3. I don't see why they'd only put 2.8 on there either, the whole point of the HD remakes was to lead into KHIII. Having only 3D, KHX and a BBS Volume II thing seems to miss the point.

Of course, that's a discussion for the KH thread, not here. Personally I do hope the NX is more powerful than the PS4 just so I can see a game like Mario Galaxy 3 in amazing graphics. And while I care more about gameplay, it's just exciting to think about, y'know?

I wonder if it'll be compatible with the GameCube adapter thing. For Smash, of course.

Well 2.8 is a direct lead in to 3 I'd say is the difference between that and the others. Plus 3D has a synopsis of the past games. It wouldn't be any less confusing tha having only 3 on Xbox One in the first place.

Also @WraithSquare didn't have the funds to? That I find dubious reasoning when they are able to create useless graphics engines, hire celebrities to voice act in their games, over budget everything, etc.  And even if that were the case, couldn't they a just release them now on Xbox One? (Perhaps whenever 1.5 and 2.5 get a PS4 collection.)

 

edit: didn't merge.:/

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1 minute ago, KHCast said:

Also @WraithSquare didn't have the funds to? That I find dubious reasoning when they are able to create useless graphics engines, hire celebrities to voice act in their games, over budget everything, etc.  And even if that were the case, couldn't they a just release them now on Xbox One? (Perhaps whenever 1.5 and 2.5 get a PS4 collection.)

"Resources" doesn't just mean funds. It also could mean manpower. Square have a lot of big projects coming in the next few years. Spending extra time and people on a port probably just didn't make sense to them.

Quote

Tai Yasue who was later on asked about whether or not the titles would see an Xbox One release. “It’s a big old question, there’s a lot of things we need to think of when we consider consoles. One of them is what our player’s want, so we will definitely consider that. But there’s also a schedule constraint, as we really don’t want the development of Kingdom Hearts III going later, so we have that to think about. We’ll consider all these things and come to a decision.”

 

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That doesn't specifically say they won't or can't. Just that they want KH3 to come out before working on other projects for it.

So I could see similar happening with the NX. Waiting until the already developed versions of 3 release and the look into a NX port. 

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48 minutes ago, KHCast said:

1. Activision at a time wouldn't put the CoD games on Wii U cause it wasn't for "hardcore" gamers or something.(or was that EA, I can't remember. A lot of what these shitty companies say blends in.) Ubisoft I believe said something similar for Assassins Creed outside 3. companies were being asses to the Wii U for the longest time. 

2. What? Why would me saying it simply made more sense to see KH3 on Nintendo hardware than Xbox be me calling Nintendo a Good Samaritan in comparison? Last time I checked Nintendo systems had half the series along with a string partnership with Disbey. Microsoft had neither of those. The fanbase is infinitely larger with Nintendo than M$. Has nothing to di with Nintendi supposedly being Jesus.

1. Activision did put a COD on the Wii U and Ubisoft put two Assassin's Creeds and Watch_Dogs on it. They weren't being asses when they stopped supporting the console with those types of games, they just didn't want to waste money on inevitable failures.

2. I was mocking your use of "M$", which is just dumb.

49 minutes ago, KHCast said:

And end of the day we'll never truly know the deal with Xbox and KH3. Either side could be right. I just wouldn't put it past Square do do something that sleezy as they've done tons of sleezy activity in the past. And at the time, when Microsoft were on the brink of suicide because of the One's rep, it totally could be possible. If 3 was always intended for the One, well, cool I guess? The market likely won't really go crazy for it over there, but still neat for the few fans that have that. It's pretty obvious Sony doesn't feel threatened about anything since they have everything AND 3. 

Let's say Microsoft did pay Square to also put KH3 on Xbox. What's sleazy about that?

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3 minutes ago, Tornado said:

So why did you bring it up in this thread in a way that was even more misleading than that?

 

Like, what are you even arguing here? I don't get it.

Did you read the rest of my post where I asked that myself? and said me using it was a bad example?

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I'd say it's certainly respectable why third parties bailed on U, perfectly reasonable why Nintendo would try to compete again, and perfectly reasonable that it'd not only bring third parties back, but also customers who'll care about Nintendo again.

I know many people who wanted a Wii U but knew it didn't have many games. And I knew many people who wanted to play Wii U games like Zelda and Splatoon but didn't want a bulky gamepad. And I know a lot of people who gave up their goodwill with the company after the Wii, even if it was immensely successful.

Rekindling said goodwill would hurt zero parties in the process, especially if it matches OR surpasses all competitors. Nintendo getting better would be nothing but a good thing.

 

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21 minutes ago, Marcello said:

1. Activision did put a COD on the Wii U and Ubisoft put two Assassin's Creeds and Watch_Dogs on it. They weren't being asses when they stopped supporting the console with those types of games, they just didn't want to waste money on inevitable failures.

2. I was mocking your use of "M$", which is just dumb.

Let's say Microsoft did pay Square to also put KH3 on Xbox. What's sleazy about that?

1. Oh watch dogs ended up on it? I thought that thing was scrapped after the shit it was going through.

2. Cool

Paying for access, or a leg up instead of actually making your console desirable to creators to work with makes you come off like you have no faith in your system by itself. It can also lead to more stress on devs and even lead to inferior versions. (See: FFXIII) If KH3 hypothetically was being built with PS4 specifically in mind(integrating the touch pad, etc) them now agreeing to make a Xbox version could lead to a lack of features one version may have.

 

If it really happened, seems like Microsoft once again were just buying their way to something. They did that with Tomb Raider and DR3(actually, I'm not sure if DR3 was a similar case to SFV). Buying advantages instead of making them.

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23 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Did you read the rest of my post where I asked that myself? and said me using it was a bad example?

I did read the rest of your post. I still don't understand what you're trying to argue. Stuff like this:

8 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Paying for access, or a leg up instead of actually making your console desirable to creators to work with makes you come off like you have no faith in your system by itself. It can also lead to more stress on devs and even lead to inferior versions. (See: FFXIII) If KH3 hypothetically was being built with PS4 specifically in mind(integrating the touch pad, etc) them now agreeing to make a Xbox version could lead to a lack of features one version may have.

Doesn't help. Microsoft (theoretically) trying to make sure that the Xbone gets all the games it can implies that they have less faith in the system? Square porting a a game from a system to a nearly identical other system could lead to less features when the games are developed on PCs anyway? Putting a game on more than one console, regardless of the circumstances, is "sleezy" behavior?

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1 hour ago, Tornado said:

I did read the rest of your post. I still don't understand what you're trying to argue. Stuff like this:

Doesn't help. Microsoft (theoretically) trying to make sure that the Xbone gets all the games it can implies that they have less faith in the system? Square porting a a game from a system to a nearly identical other system could lead to less features when the games are developed on PCs anyway? Putting a game on more than one console, regardless of the circumstances, is "sleezy" behavior?

If the game had touch pad exclusive features or gyro, yeah, those features, even if optional are unavailable to Xbox users.  

I'm all for multiplat, but I'd rather they make the console desirable develop on, and not just have companies cynically buy inclusion. You wouldn't buy acceptance from your friends. You'd make yourself a cool guy to be around. And yeah, I'd say it implies less faith. Why buy access to these games, if you know your system is good? These games would have been on the system anyway if that's the case.

Companies are very self concious at times. Rise of the Tomb raider for example being made a timed exclusive came off like MS didn't think they're version would do well, so they had to make an artificial incentive.

if companies see the worth in it, will make it for the system unless they have bias towards someone else. Again maybe FFXV and KH3 were like this. Maybe not. Who really knows? What's done is done, and hopefully it will be awesome both sides.

 

basically my original point in this topic was me more or less saying power doesn't automatically mean success, that's literally all. It's a great thing, and important, but but tons of powerful systems have become "failures". Someone brought up KH3, and that was a entirely different subject, and then the two arguments blended at some point.

If the NX is more powerful than a PS4, I'd think that'd be cool. It'd be neat to see Nintendo have a leg up for once and have a system that isn't hugely behind. That's a massive step in the right direction. We'll see how the general public responds. 

The "companies do stupid things" point was basically just to say if companies were going to ignore the NX, should it be successful, it would just add to the list of stupid decisions they make.

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The NX needs to surpass the PS4 and Xbone in the power department - noticeably so, even if it isn't dramatically more powerful. Not to do so at this stage would be suicide - because what's the point of developing for a new system that's less powerful than its 2 year old rivals? Beyond that, however, and just as importantly, it absolutely must be piss easy to port games over to it from those rival systems. If developers can put better looking and playing versions of their works onto Nintendo's new system easily, relatively inexpensively, relatively quickly, maybe Nintendo stands a chance at wooing the industry back.

I still have deep concern about launching a new platform so out of sync with rival systems, though. Once the PS5 and XTwo come out, won't it pretty much be dead in the water? If it's powerful enough and easy enough to develop for, though, maybe it can act as a stepping stone - the new systems will be very expensive, but you can get a Nintendo that plays all your favorite games, new gen and old (except exclusives) that look almost as nice for much less! Maybe they could have some sort of "Own Game X for System Y? Big discount for same game on our platform!" program, encouraging sales and such.

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God, all this just makes me glad I didn't play Kingdom Hearts as a kid.

This is the second rumour that's said that the NX is super easy to port for, and that has been Nintendo's achilles heel since 1996. The problem I had with the Wii U (less so the Wii), not being a diehard Nintendo fan, has always been 'X, Y, and Z look cool, but it's not really worth £250+ quid in toto when I could spend that money on a PS3 and get a Wii/Wii U for cheap and play the 4 games I want on it a few years down the line'. Actually making a Nintendo console that could play the majority of third party games in the future and the four Nintendo games that grab my interest could actually make me fork out for one. 

@Patticus Whilst this may not be the most financially sound measure, the Wii U did only come out in 2012 - Nintendo might do another 'short' generation if PS5/XB2 is affecting their sales?

 

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15 minutes ago, Hyp3hat said:

Whilst this may not be the most financially sound measure, the Wii U did only come out in 2012 - Nintendo might do another 'short' generation if PS5/XB2 is affecting their sales?

If their new machine is expected to only live 2 or 3 years, tops, then what's the point in developing anything of substance for it? No, it needs a bit more longevity, some real power that'll carry it through the first 2 years of the PS5/X2's life cycles. Ease of development and oomph that'll easily allow for games with a convincing next gen look and feel - and a Wii-style mega marketing push - that's what I think that they need. Then maybe the company can focus on getting up to speed with Sony and Microsoft the following generation, if the company's board wants to, since not doing so has all but crippled the Wii U's ability to compete.

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12 minutes ago, Patticus said:

If their new machine is expected to only live 2 or 3 years, tops, then what's the point in developing anything of substance for it? No, it needs a bit more longevity, some real power that'll carry it through the first 2 years of the PS5/X2's life cycles. Ease of development and oomph that'll easily allow for games with a convincing next gen look and feel - and a Wii-style mega marketing push - that's what I think that they need. Then maybe the company can focus on getting up to speed with Sony and Microsoft the following generation, if the company's board wants to, since not doing so has all but crippled the Wii U's ability to compete.

Aye, that makes sense.

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Oy guys we got another batch of NX rumors http://gonintendo.com/stories/256033-another-giant-wave-of-nx-rumors-new-ip-screen-controller-luig

 

Quote

Like last time, I'm using the tiered rumors where a T1 means one source told me, T2 means two, Tier 3 means 3, and Tier 4 means four or more (there are no T4 this time). I will reiterate this, I am not the source of any of this information. I am simply passing along what I heard. It should all be taken with a grain of salt and not be taken as gospel. Don't cry and flame me if by June none of this is true. 

Nirolak told me to contextualize the rumors and was a fan of the tiered system, so I did it. Please read it through and enjoy. Feel free to debate it, get mad at it, get hyped by it or whatever, just know things like these can change at any time and may never come to fruition exactly how it's worded.

T3 Rumors

The NX gimmick. I uh....was told not to post this part by some people. As usual, take it with a grain of salt (although I don't know why I would be warned if it was false) I'm not under any NDA though, and well, it could end up being false. But I was told a variation of this by three different sources. I don't believe they have a reason to lie to me. Here goes....

The NX is going to have a screen controller (whether it's optional or standard I don't know) and can be used anywhere to play your home console games. The controller itself will not have any processing capabilities, it'll essentially be a dummy vita. It'll likely have basic OS functions to access the NX console from anywhere, like a tiny cpu. Nintendo will use enhanced Wii U gamepad streaming tech, and allow the controller to be taken anywhere, connect to the NX console at home (likely through Wi-fi or personal hotspots and the NX console will likely have to be in stand-by mode). Basically, it's remote play built into the box and won't require a $200 add-on to experience it. This is likely what Kimishima meant in his interview with Sankei (http://www.sankei.com/west/news/1601...030012-n1.html) "different way to play with a dedicated machine" and the whole "new way to experience games" mantra that's been going around Nintendo PR.

Speculation: Nintendo could also sell personal hotspot usb adapters to get internet anywhere and plug either directly into the controller or a wall outlet to not drain the controller battery. The Supplementary Computing Devices may actually be portable hotspot devices with chips in it to boost the quality of the stream. (Maybe the NX will be called the Stream, a speculated final name during the WUST's).

Note: This does not mean there will not be a handheld. This isn't meant to be a replacement for the handheld as there will still be limitations and the controller won't have a full OS or the capability for physical game media (discs or cartridges). The needs of a handheld won't be fully met with this feature. It's just a nice add-on.

T2 Rumors

Luigi's Mansion 3 is in development for NX. This rumor gained popularity awhile ago from Geno but this isn't my source. This was a T1 to start but today I got another source to give some info on it. Two different sources have told me that it is in development for NX, and one source said it's being developed by Next Level Games, who is big enough to do this and Federation Force at the same time. One source said it started as a Wii U game but after the disappointing performance of the Wii U and the scheduled release date for the game being late in the console's cycle, Nintendo decided to switch development over to NX. (basically the same situation as Zelda for Wii U, but no word on if this game will also get a Wii U version). The other source said it's a pretty big deal (he didn't elaborate if he meant Nintendo is making it a big deal or his workplace is). To support this, http://www.nintendolife.com/news/201...edits_the_post 
an employee stealth edited his post last year.

T1 Rumors

The NX will use a custom Polaris-like GPU. Likely will be on a FinFET 14nm fabrication node. The source told me it's on the same architecture with heavy customizations of course . It will contain the feature set of Polaris. It is "marginally better than the PS4" and theoretically could be "2x the power of PS4 GPU". I asked about PS4K being rumored to have a gpu 2x as powerful as the OG PS4 and how the theoretical performance of the NX would be and was told "Theoretically it could be close to the PS4K rumored specs". Of course, we know nothing of Polaris or the PS4K specs, but he gave that metric.

I'm going to paraphrase here, but one comment from a source about the power of NX was that "Dev's could port over a PS4 game easily and have power to spare. Even the most demanding ones". My own theory is any game that dips below 30fps on PS4 will likely stay at 30fps on NX and maybe have some enhanced effects.

One feature he highly touted, which improves performance greatly in games, especially graphically demanding ones such as AAA open world games is Primitive Discard Accelerator. A TechGAF member described it as 
"designed to perform culling of triangles before they hit the geometry processor. Effectively, what this means is that it runs through the triangles (also known as primitives) as they hit the GPU and tests them to see if they're actually going to be visible on the screen or not (with a variety of tests), then throws out the triangles that aren't going to be on screen (i.e. discards them or culls them).

Now, this is a good thing, pretty much regardless of the type of game. Attempting to render triangles that aren't actually going to end up in the final image is a waste of GPU resources, and preventing that would be a pretty good thing. One of EA's Frostbite developers actually just gave a talk on this at GDC (PDF link, very technical), where they describe the software-based culling methods used in Frostbite. In their test scene, they could throw out over 75% of triangles before hitting the geometry engine, resulting in an almost 20% performance improvement. AMD have also recently released their own software-based culling solution, GeometryFX, which like Frostbite runs as software on the GPU's shader units. Hence, they're obviously interested in the problem of triangle culling, so it wouldn't be surprising if they developed a hardware unit to perform it more efficiently." 
This was great to hear, but I asked if it was possible to get this feature set on 28nm GPU's since those are more established and cheaper than 14nm and there isn't a yield risk on those. 
"Well, from a purely theoretical perspective, any "Polaris exclusive" feature could be adapted to a 28nm process. Work on Polaris had likely been going on for about a year or so when work on NX started, so it is in theory possible that they said to AMD "Hey, we like this primitive discard accelerator thing, can we have it on our planned 28nm chip?". The issue with this is that Nintendo would have had to fork over quite a lot of extra R&D dollars to get a functional block "back-ported" to 28nm, compared to components from existing GCN 1.2 chips, which were already ready to go for TSMC's 28nm process. The other issue is the assumption that the primitive discard accelerator is single functional block that can be just pulled wholesale out of Polaris. It could be an integral part of the geometry processor or command processor, or the manner in which it operates could depend on the newer geometry or command processors in Polaris. This would mean that you'd need to port the bulk of Polaris's improvements back to 28nm, or do a substantial amount of redesign work on the primitive discard accelerator to get it to work in a GCN 1.2-era chip (either of these would add substantially more R&D cost).

It's impossible to say how much it would cost them in the scheme of things, but it does seem like an unusual added expense over just taking existing GCN 1.2 tech, which would still be a generation ahead of the competition."

So with this quote, while it's not confirmed, it is highly likely Nintendo is using a 14nm Polaris GPU in the NX based off of the expensive nature of using PDA or any Polaris feature set and putting it on a 28nm chip. 
If Nintendo does go with 14nm, it is very likely they will be taking a loss on each NX sold, but we don't know the dealings AMD have with Nintendo. Once source told me "AMD may have been desperate enough for the business to offer Nintendo, say, the first year's supply at a fixed price, to reduce Nintendo's yield risk. They may also have specifically pushed Nintendo into a 14nm Polaris-based chip, as it would allow Nintendo to also use a Polaris-based 14nm chip for the handheld. This would not only be a big business win for AMD in itself (Nintendo's handhelds typically sell a lot more than their home consoles), but it would also big a big PR win for them, by showing their ability to compete in the ultra-low TPD sector, which is a market they've made pretty much no traction in up until now." 

So 14nm is still likely in 2016 and Nintendo could still sell it at a reasonable price and not lose too much money or even break even.

tl;dr The NX GPU is using features that are debuting on the Polaris chip, and is therefore heavily speculated to be a Polaris chip, as that would work well in a handheld too and help AMD prove they can make low wattage chips with good performance for small devices. (GCN 1.3, Vulkan, Primitive Discard Accelerator, etc)

Nintendo is using Vulkan with NX. This goes hand in hand with using a Polaris-based GPU, and goes with the announcement of Nintendo joining Kronos. But the dev I spoke to about the GPU, who is porting a PS4 game to NX said Vulkan is not ready yet (as of the 2015 December SDK, should be an update in May) and they are using a variation of the PS4 API, GMNX, until Vulkan is ready. Nintendo providing some nice tools like GMNX to help devs port from PC, XBox and PS4 to NX. 

Most dev kits won't be given until Nintendo formally reveals the NX. As my previous post indicated, Nintendo is none too happy with the leaks and is keeping things on lockdown. Outside of close partners and internal teams, most devs are using SDK's until the NX reveal. Not a big deal, but I was told specs are pretty much final as of now, and the May update will likely be for the final spec sheet and not target specs.

MercurySteam has a dev kit and is making an already announced game for the NX. The only announced game they have is Raiders of the Broken Planet, currently under development for PS4, XB1 and PC. This is likely it. (Take this one as a T0.5). 

Final Fantasy XV on NX. My single source on this said he's heard more of his sources mention it's coming to NX. No idea when. I pressed for FFVIIR but nobody has heard about it. Gaf's very own mod Kagari hinted that Sony may have co-funded it and it may never get released outside of PS4 and PC (like Street Fighter V).

NX will likely launch at different times per region. Only heard this from one source but it does make sense if the NX does use 14nm chips, as there's a risk of not having enough of those chips ready on shelves for holiday 2016. 

No regions were specified, but one would assume with the slow adoption of consoles in Japan, and the popularity of handhelds over there, the NX will launch in the west first like some past Nintendo consoles (consoles are more popular outside of Japan). Likely North America and Europe.

There are lots of NX games in development. Once source told me to post this so I won't edit it at all

"And you can quote me on this on GAF too: "I think NX software output is going to blow away Wii U. There's a LOT of games in development. I don't know if we'll see all of them at E3, since a lot of Wii U projects weren't announced until January 2013, but I'm very impressed so far with what I'm hearing." 
New IP are being developed. I asked this because I noticed some complaints about how there were no leaks about new IP and NX was looking like another Mario/Zelda factory with a bunch of remasters and ports. The source said "I'm not allowed to give specifics, but that's a sure bet."

 

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3 hours ago, Patticus said:

If their new machine is expected to only live 2 or 3 years, tops, then what's the point in developing anything of substance for it? No, it needs a bit more longevity, some real power that'll carry it through the first 2 years of the PS5/X2's life cycles. Ease of development and oomph that'll easily allow for games with a convincing next gen look and feel - and a Wii-style mega marketing push - that's what I think that they need. Then maybe the company can focus on getting up to speed with Sony and Microsoft the following generation, if the company's board wants to, since not doing so has all but crippled the Wii U's ability to compete.

Sony fucking around with half generation updates with the PS4K may help Nintendo in that regard, however.

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6 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Sony fucking around with half generation updates with the PS4K may help Nintendo in that regard, however.

Are you thinking that the PS4K might have opened up a window of opportunity for Nintendo to dive into the current gen (specs-wise) without feeling too much pain; syncing its system life cycles to the mid-gen updates of other platforms rather than the traditional everybody goes at once model?

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34 minutes ago, KHCast said:

There a TL;DR version lol?

From what I've gathered

NX will be more powerful than the PS4 and maybe on par with the PS4K

Luigi's Mansion 3 is going to be an NX game

The NX controller will have a screen on it but won't be too expensive apparently. 

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Interesting. I still am curious to know if devs will seriously be able to take full advantage of systems like the 4K and NX. It still feels like most games don't even push the PS4 and Xbox One.

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47 minutes ago, Patticus said:

Are you thinking that the PS4K might have opened up a window of opportunity for Nintendo to dive into the current gen (specs-wise) without feeling too much pain; syncing its system life cycles to the mid-gen updates of other platforms rather than the traditional everybody goes at once model?

I personally think that the PS4K is going to be rejected pretty strongly; but Sony trying to goose step through this generation means that even if the PS5 and Xbox One Two come out in, say, 2018, Sony has probably extended the life of the PS4 in general a couple of years so a Nintendo system that is between it and the PS4K or whatever should at least be able to ride the coattails of it even passed the PS4's true successor.

 

Same as how the PS2's stubborn refusal to die led to the original Wii getting a large depth of third party support way longer than it probably would have otherwise.

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The 4K I think will end up in a situation similar to the N3DS. Some will upgrade, and there won't be many 4K exclusives. Only here people are a bit angrier since the PS4 wasn't that old, and it's a bigger investmen. So the NX may have an advantage over it as it will be seen as more a actual new thing worth upgrading.

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