Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Vertekins]

I think the main point of consternation regarding P&G for me is that they simply don't have any real touch for writing Sonic, both it's characters and it's tone and themes in general. The way they write the games....doesn't make them feel like Sonic games to me.

The humor isn't Sonic-esque. It's childish, unsubtle and generally unfunny. Much of the humor is akin to dangling your car keys in front of an infant to make it laugh.

The narratives are lacking themes that added weight and meaning to them. There's no messages that enhance the story.

Dr Eggman is a blowhard for the most part whose never taken seriously instead of being a proactive threat whose capability for destruction was respected and acknowledged ("You've turned into a big time villain doctor!").

The characters just don't do anything interesting the majority of the time. For the most part, they stand around doing nothing and making idle chit chat. That's boring. Generations is terrible with this in particular with the four most promiment characters prattling on and standing around in most cutscenes and everyone else merely standing there in the cutscene in which Classic Eggman first appears and egging on the injured Sonic's instead of, oh I don't know, ganging up on the Eggmen themselves. The characters are inclined to being very active and boisterous....so why the fuck do they loaf around doing next to nothing under P&G's pens?

There's just nothing about their writing of the series that indicates a good gain overall. Especially when compared to what we got before their tenure as writers. And no, when I say "What we got before", I'm not referencing the likes of Shadow and '06.

I think one of my biggest criticisms is how they portray Sonic himself. As a massive Sonic aficionado, I could almost weep a bit at seeing what he's become, the degree to which he's been flanderized, how much he's been derailed. It's not as bad as his writing in the likes of Chronicles, '06 and Shadow (The first of which portrayed him completely OoC, the latter two of which treated him like total shit) but it's absolutely nothing special either and is such a downgrade especially coming so soon after Black Knight, the game which is his most supreme portrayal in any Sonic media in my opinion.

I mean...

He rambles on and on obnoxiously instead of actually getting right to it.

Sonic is a man of action. He gets his hands dirty pretty much immediately instead of letting things such as injustices linger, a trait in-line with Naoto Oshima’s intention for him to be a guy who has a “Get it done now!” attitude. This has the additional effect of making his speech and actions have gravity.

Want some examples?

Look at him. He’s not standing by and making idle chit chat. He’s doing what he does best with such incredibly cool flair. And in most of these instances, he’s putting-across his cool factor without single word rolling off his tongue. His character has impact, this guy gets shit done. He doesn’t give a single fuck about what anyone else thinks, he’s flashing that toothy grin with supreme confidence and he executes his actions with the utmost deftness. In other words, he’s acting like I expect SONIC THE HEDGEHOG to act.

Now compare to…this highly irritating intepretation.

See how the Sonic above acted as if his awesomeness was obvious? This timeless trait of the character’s personality has been completely passed-over here, ignored in favor of this obnoxious braggart who acts akin to a child whose screaming for attention, asking for others to actively acknowedge what he does and even acting put-out when he’s caught in the act of boasting. A convincingly-written Sonic would not realistically do the latter if he was caught in “embarassing” behaviours simply because he wouldn't care enough about what anyone said or thought about his actions to be adversely affected by it. Chances would be that he’d just laugh along with it instead of acting ike he’s ashamed of himself. That's one of the likable things about Sonic to me at least - He's capable of laughing at himself but ultimately has no regard for what people think of how he acts.

It degenerates Sonic’s character because it consumes him and deprives him of his edge, shunts him onto a role that doesn't do him justice. In Colours, whenever he meets a robot, he goes on and fucking on about how he’s going to kick their asses and it falls completely flat because he’s getting no response and makes him look like a weirdo. It also has the effect of screwing-over the story as well because more scene time in dedicated to these irritating shenanigans than actually expanding on established plot points or making the story more varied. So not only are Pontac and Graff fucking-up Sonic’s writing, they’re fucking-up the rest of the story in doing so. It’s such a vicious cycle.

You don’t see the interesting aspects of Sonic’s character anymore

In relation to the above, Long gone are the days when you saw Sonic exhibit either somewhat profound beliefs or a level of complexity such as his pragmatism in Black Knight, not caring if everyone considered him a bad guy for stopping Arthur’s tyranny by killing him and in addition his viewpoint that life would have no meaning if it went on forever, hence his opposition to Merlina even though her plan would’ve stopped the end of that world.

How about the revelation in Unleashed that it wasn’t just his sense of guilt regarding landing on top of Chip that compelled him to help him? He didn’t need a reason to want to help out his friend. Or his palpable upset/shame at Amy failing to recognise him in Werehog form?

This sense of….how do I explain it? This sense what makes Sonic such an intriguing character, the feeling of agency to his character, the drive that he had to do what he chooses to do without regrets is largely ignored in 2010+ Sonic, leaving a far flatter character who simply isn’t as interestingl. Sonic has lost alot of his heart. And it’s a crying shame.

So yeah, whilst P&G's handling of the series isn't Shadow, Chronicles or '06 bad to me, it's nothing remotely remarkable either and is absolutely no standard that is ideal for the series and what it should abide by.

I'd much rather see the series embrace writers who pay heed to the series' identity and who actually know the characters.

 

Edited October 2, 2015 by Vertekins

[Dr. Crusher]

I understand the criticisms that they get, but I still think that the hate (yes, hate) they get from many fans is overblown, and it's only another shining example of why the Sonic fandom and how unapproachable it can be puts me off far more than any bad or disappointing game in the series has ever done.

And that's all I feel like saying on that, because I really cannot be bothered with this subject anymore. (Same time next week.)

[Kuzu]

I understand the criticisms that they get, but I still think that the hate (yes, hate) they get from many fans is overblown, and it's only another shining example of why the Sonic fandom and how unapproachable it can be puts me off far more than any bad or disappointing game in the series has ever done.

And that's all I feel like saying on that, because I really cannot be bothered with this subject anymore. (Same time next week.)

Its like Roger said, a lot of Sonic fans probably have really horrible social skills.

[FriendBot]

Its like Roger said, a lot of Sonic fans probably have really horrible social skills.

That may be so but it's still not an excuse to send death threats to them. That's literally inexcusable.

[Komodin]

I understand the criticisms that they get, but I still think that the hate (yes, hate) they get from many fans is overblown, and it's only another shining example of why the Sonic fandom and how unapproachable it can be puts me off far more than any bad or disappointing game in the series has ever done.

And that's all I feel like saying on that, because I really cannot be bothered with this subject anymore. (Same time next week.)

Yeah, at this point, this is pretty much my thoughts on the subject of this pair of writers. With me, it's like this:

I can fully grok the criticisms made about their work--even with Sonic Team's current weird aversion to substantial Sonic stories in mind, Pontac and Graff's writing can be hit or miss (this especially rings true with Shattered Crystal) and their characterizations of most of the characters are rather janky at times, to say the least. However, the way that some of the members of the fanbase goes about with expressing their grievances, especially since it's at the point where the writers don't even want to communicate with the fans anymore, just disturbs me greatly. As a fandom, we all could stand to grow up a little ourselves if this is how we're going to address those who make stuff that we don't like for a given reason.

[Kuzu]

While I agree the fanbase is at fault, let's not pretend that the developers are completely innocent either. Consider that this series has been over a decade of inconsistency and questionable design choices. After going through all of this, is it really a surprise that people are ready to fly off the handle at anything they don't like. In short, the vitriolic and unstable nature of this fanbase is just as much on the developers for their lack of communication and damage control as it is the fan's really terrible social skills. The consumer-developer relationship is a two way street. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I want to say that in Lost World about Sonic being a bully..... Sonic was not a bully~ Eggman deserved it in the game and I thought the writers make it clear. None of the stuff wouldnt happen if Eggman didnt try to control the D6 or try to use them to take over the world. And then backstabbed Sonic in the end. Sonic and Tails have all the rights to be angry for anyone would be pissed off. I dont understand why people feel bad for him in LW i will never know >.>

Edited September 29, 2015 by Sonikku/

[Briraka]

While I agree the fanbase is at fault, let's not pretend that the developers are completely innocent either. Consider that this series has been over a decade of inconsistency and questionable design choices. After going through all of this, is it really a surprise that people are ready to fly off the handle at anything they don't like. In short, the vitriolic and unstable nature of this fanbase is just as much on the developers for their lack of communication and damage control as it is the fan's really terrible social skills. The consumer-developer relationship is a two way street. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"SEGA made shitty games so that totally justifies all the shit the fanbase does to each other and the people behind the games. Totally justified."

... Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with that logic at all. :V

[azoo]

I want to say that in Lost World about Sonic being a bully..... Eggman deserved it in the game and I thought the writers make it clear. None of the stuff wouldnt happen if Eggman didnt try to control the D6 or try to use them to take over the world. And then backstabbed Sonic in the end. Sonic and Tails have all the rights to be angry for anyone would be pissed off. I dont understand why people feel bad for him >.>

I think the real problem with Eggman in Lost World is that past the intro, he's treated as a joke-level threat throughout the whole remainder of the game, even to the ending. The Deadly Six are the real threats in the game, but despite that even they're as one note as they come and there's no depth to their actions; and Eggman just picks up where they left off, gets wrecked by Sonic and Tails with no real hassle, and then gets blown off with "haha, you lost, Loser McUglyface!!" at the end, only for him to bumble up his jetpack and become even more of a joke than he already was.

And yeah I'd say in regards to writing, it's a little bit of everybody at fault, but ultimately Sega's.

Sega made terrible decisions, fans (particularly ones with poor social skills) got extremely angry, Sega hires American writers to try to appease them, Pontac/Graff are given very little room by Sega to breathe in storywriting, they end up writing really poor stories with miserably try-hard scripts due to their writing style, fans (once again, particularly ones with poor social skills) think it's the worst shit on the planet and start to actually hate Pontac/Graff, Pontac/Graff then want nothing to do with the fans due to it, rinse repeat two or three more times, and here we are. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Azoo

[Kuzu]

"SEGA made shitty games so that totally justifies all the shit the fanbase does to each other and the people behind the games. Totally justified."

... Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with that logic at all. :V

Ya know, if you're gonna generalize my entire point, the least you could do is actually understand what the point is. :\

 

I never said anything about justifying anyone's attitude about this whole thing, but rather to stop pretending that Sega/Sonic Team are these holy figures who are just victims of the bad bad fanbase. Nobody here decided to just wake up one day and go "I'm gonna be a fuckwad in the Sonic fanbase, just because." 

[Dr. Mechano]

To the people saying that Pontac/Graff made Eggman into a joke character, remember that Eggman was never designed to be a super-serious villain (supplemental materials like the cartoons/comics notwithstanding). Even back in the Genesis games, he was essentially Snidely Whiplash with robots. His personality - what we could make of it without dialogue - consisted of laughing when you got hurt, cowardly fleeing, and stamping his face on everything.

Oh, and throwing tantrums.

Eggman's always been a goofball, and the modern games simply highlight this aspect of his personality. Perhaps they emphasize this aspect more than, say, the Adventure games did... but it's always been a major part of his characterization. I think proper Eggman characterization can be boiled down to three key ingredients:

1.) A humorous personality
2.) Competence as Sonic's antagonist
3.) Humanity. He may be a bad person, but he's just that- a person, rather than a generic emotionless monster. Occasional glimpses of depth support this.

Now, Sonic Adventure 2 is often cited as one of Eggman's best games. And I agree. Eggman was awesome there. Aside from being fully playable, the game meets the above criteria, and meets it very well:

1.) Humor: Eggman's humor is shown through the egotistical decor of the pyramid base, with his face plastered on everything. He also scratches his butt when he's alone at the base, apparently. 
2.) Competence: Eggman is scarily competent in this game, blowing up the moon and even cleverly tricking Tails into revealing which Emerald was the fake. He was on his A-game, even if he wasn't ultimately the final boss.
3.) Humanity: Eggman reminisces about his childhood, showing that he once dreamed of being just like Gerald, in a rare moment of emotional vulnerability.

 

Now let's look at Sonic Lost World. Do Pontac and Graff stack up? Well:

1.) Humor: Eggman has plenty of hilarious quips with his robots, with Sonic and Tails, and with the Deadly Six, throughout the game. The comedy aspect is definitely played up more here.
2.) Competence: However, his competence as a villain isn't thrown by the wayside either. Once his plot to control the D6 was ruined, he immediately improvised a backup plan, teaming up with Sonic to get them out of his way before reclaiming the final boss spot for himself.
3.) Humanity: He also saves Tails and Sonic from danger in this game, and the narrative is decidedly vague about whether it was purely pragmatic or if he was genuinely being a good ally during their truce. He's a complicated guy, either way.

 

Now, I'll admit, Lost World isn't as nuanced as Adventure 2 was in its portrayal of Eggman. I admit to preferring the former's portrayal on the whole, but my point is that the basic building blocks of Eggman's character are present in both games, albeit with differing amounts of focus. Pontac and Graff didn't invent a new characterization for Eggman out of nowhere. They're writing traits for this character that have existed for a very long time, and I feel they're pretty good at it.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Kuzu]

To the people saying that Pontac/Graff made Eggman into a joke character, remember that Eggman was never designed to be a super-serious villain (supplemental materials like the cartoons/comics notwithstanding). Even back in the Genesis games, he was essentially Snidely Whiplash with robots. His personality - what we could make of it without dialogue - consisted of laughing when you got hurt, cowardly fleeing, and stamping his face on everything.

Oh, and throwing tantrums.

Eggman's always been a goofball, and the modern games simply highlight this aspect of his personality. Perhaps they emphasize this aspect more than, say, the Adventure games did... but it's always been a major part of his characterization. I think proper Eggman characterization can be boiled down to three key ingredients:

1.) A humorous personality
2.) Competence as Sonic's antagonist
3.) Humanity. He may be a bad person, but he's just that- a person, rather than a generic emotionless monster. Occasional glimpses of depth support this.

Now, Sonic Adventure 2 is often cited as one of Eggman's best games. And I agree. Eggman was awesome there. Aside from being fully playable, the game meets the above criteria, and meets it very well:

1.) Eggman's humor is shown through the egotistical decor of the pyramid base, with his face plastered on everything. He also scratches his butt when he's alone at the base, apparently. 
2.) Eggman is scarily competent in this game, blowing up the moon and even cleverly tricking Tails into revealing which Emerald was the fake. He was on his A-game, even if he wasn't ultimately the final boss.
3.) Eggman reminisces about his childhood, showing that he once dreamed of being just like Gerald, in a rare moment of emotional vulnerability. There's your humanity.

 

Now let's look at Sonic Lost World. Do Pontac and Graff stack up? Well:

1.) Eggman has plenty of hilarious quips with his robots, with Sonic and Tails, and with the Deadly Six, throughout the game. The comedy aspect is definitely played up more here.
2.) However, his competence as a villain isn't thrown by the wayside either. Once his plot to control the D6 was ruined, he immediately improvised a backup plan, teaming up with Sonic to get them out of his way before reclaiming the final boss spot for himself.
3.) He also saves Tails and Sonic from danger in this game, and the narrative is decidedly vague about whether it was purely pragmatic or if he was genuinely being a good ally during their truce. He's a complicated guy, either way.

 

Now, I'll admit, Lost World isn't as nuanced as Adventure 2 was in its portrayal of Eggman. I admit to preferring the former's portrayal on the whole, but my point is that the basic building blocks of Eggman's character are present in both games, albeit with differing amounts of focus. Pontac and Graff didn't invent a new characterization for Eggman out of nowhere. They're writing traits for this character that have existed for a very long time, and I feel they're pretty good at it.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Eggman shouldn't have any comedic or comical traits, like you said, they're an essential part of his character. However, once the series decided to shift to a much more narrative-orientated plot, Eggman appropriately had his more villainous traits highlighted in order to give the games an actual sense of urgency and danger to the narrative. Before, in the classic games, Eggman's villainy doesn't really get a lot of focus due to how straightforward the games were at the time. He was simply the guy you beat to get the end credits, most of the complexity and motivation coming from supplemental material. Which was justified due to lack of focus on narrative at the time.

Now ever since Colors, it feels like the writers are trying to have their cake and eat it too; they want Eggman to be the comically fun guy to watch, but still try to portray him as a legitimate threat. The problem I feel is they lean way too far on the former, but still try to act like the latter exists. So you get things like Eggman sitting around and just watching Sonic & Tails ruin his plans without actively doing anything to stop them, then show up and try to play up tension in the fact that he's the final boss (and "mastermind"). So its like, they expect us t take a guy seriously when he spends most of his game not actually doing anything villainous, or whatever villainous things he does are offscreen and not focused on.

 

I prefer his portrayal prior because I felt he had an appropriate level of menace and whimsy, without either really overshadowing the other. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Dejimon11]

This is just me speaking but Im kinda indifferent when it comes to them. In Colors even though they didn't write the script their addition made me get a chuckle out of them and I could excuse the tone because this was at the point where the developers were trying to get their stuff together so its fine. In Generations I can't blame them because the game was rushed and there wasn't really a story in that game.

With Lost World it was the first time writing a story on their own Im going to admit it wasn't good. The plot had some good points but overall it wasn't that good. For starters the deadly six were built up as the biggest threat ever but they really didn't do much with them. They didn't feel like characters they felt like archetypes more than anything else. They overhyped the fact that Sonic and Eggman would be working together even though its nothing new they've done this a lot of times to the point where its not even funny I guess the only new thing they added was how Sonic and Eggman acted towards each other but that's about it. They tried to build up drama and tension when tails got kidnapped and it looked like he was about to get robotized the moment was ruined since we saw that tails was able to take control of the machine or when it looked like knuckles and amy were dead in the end it was all back to normal.

I still think their worst writing was shattered crystals. What was that plot even going? Nothing happened and the dialogue actually gave me a headache like holy crap you could tell that they didn't try. But I think where the hatred for them came from is the interview Ken did saying that he and Warren aren't sonic fans and they looked up all their information by watching cutscense on youtube and looking up sonic information on a wiki. Now that's not bad because when Ian Flynn was writing for the Mega Man comics he has claimed that he got his research by looking up the robot masters personalities on the Mega Man and Bass bio that he four on the mega man wiki and he watched LP's of people struggling with the games(and other stuff like playing them and seeing how he can judge a robot master by looking at their patterns/movements ) and look at how many people like the mega man book so that's nothing new. The problem with this however is that it seems that SEGA didn't supply these guys who are writing stories for their games and it seems as if they just don't give a damn about the story in the series.

[Dr. Mechano]

Now ever since Colors, it feels like the writers are trying to have their cake and eat it too; they want Eggman to be the comically fun guy to watch, but still try to portray him as a legitimate threat. The problem I feel is they lean way too far on the former, but still try to act like the latter exists. So you get things like Eggman sitting around and just watching Sonic & Tails ruin his plans without actively doing anything to stop them, then show up and try to play up tension in the fact that he's the final boss (and "mastermind"). So its like, they expect us t take a guy seriously when he spends most of his game not actually doing anything villainous, or whatever villainous things he does are offscreen and not focused on.

I can agree that I definitely want more of Eggman fighting Sonic throughout the game, rather than just being the final boss.

In Lost World's case, he at least got to tag along with Sonic, meaning we got to see more of Eggman the person, rather than just Eggman the recurring boss. I'm okay with it in LW for that reason, though I definitely think Colors would've been a lot better if the generic boss robots had all been various Eggmobile battles.

Y'know, streamline it; Have Eggman do the funny thing and the competent thing at the same time. He can show up, banter with Sonic for a bit, battle him, and then flee before coming back to do it again in the next zone. A very Genesis-esque formula, and one I'd be totally on board with.

Of course, the Adventure games honestly weren't great about this either; Sonic fights Eggman only twice in SA1, and doesn't fight him at all in SA2. Of course, SA2's case is mitigated by the fact that Eggman is at least playable and gets to wreck GUN's forces throughout the game, but yeah.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Briraka]

Ya know, if you're gonna generalize my entire point, the least you could do is actually understand what the point is. :\

 

I never said anything about justifying anyone's attitude about this whole thing, but rather to stop pretending that Sega/Sonic Team are these holy figures who are just victims of the bad bad fanbase. Nobody here decided to just wake up one day and go "I'm gonna be a fuckwad in the Sonic fanbase, just because." 

I don't think anyone here was pretending that SEGA was completely innocent, though and the way you worded your post sounded like you were trying to shift blame onto SEGA when all they've done is make bad games while the crazy side of the fanbase is harassing the people involved over a cartoon hedgehog.

I understand that releasing disappointment after disappointment is going to cause outrage, but c'mon.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

...

He rambles on and on obnoxiously instead of actually getting right to it.

Sonic is a man of action. He gets his hands dirty pretty much immediately instead of letting things linger, a trait in-line with Naoto Oshima’s intention for him to be a guy who has a “Get it done now!” attitude. This has the additional effect of making his speech and actions have more impact.

Want some examples?

Look at him. He’s not standing by and making idle chit chat. He’s doing what he does best with such incredibly cool flair. And in most of these instances, he’s putting-across his cool factor without single word rolling off his tongue. His character has impact, this guy gets shit done. He doesn’t give a single fuck about what anyone else thinks, he’s flashing that toothy grin with supreme confidence and executes his actions with the utmost deftness. In other words, he’s acting like I expect SONIC THE HEDGEHOG to act.

Now compare to…this

See how the Sonic above acted as if his awesomeness was obvious? This timeless trait of the character’s personality has been completely passed-over here, ignored in favor of this obnoxious braggart who acts akin to a child whose screaming for attention, asking for others to actively acknowedge what he does and even acting put-out when he’s caught in the act of boasting. A convincingly-written Sonic would not realistically do the latter if he was caught in “embarassing” behaviours, he’d just laugh along with it instead of acting ike he’s ashamed of himself. That's one of the likable things about Sonic to me at least - He's capable of laughing at himself.

It degenerates Sonic’s character because it consumes him and deprives him of his edge. In Colours, whenever he meets a robot, he goes on and fucking on about how he’s going to kick their asses and it falls completely flat because he’s getting no response and makes him look like a weirdo. It also has the effect of screwing-over the story as well because more scene time in dedicated to these irritating shenanigans than actually expanding on established plot points or making the story more varied. So not only are Pontac and Graff fucking-up Sonic’s writing, they’re fucking-up the rest of the story in doing so. It’s such a vicious cycle.

You don’t see the interesting aspects of Sonic’s character anymore

In relation to the above, Long gone are the days when you saw Sonic exhibit either somewhat profound beliefs or a level of complexity such as his pragmatism in Black Knight, not caring if everyone considered him a bad guy for stopping Arthur’s tyranny by killing him and in addition his viewpoint that life would have no meaning if it went on forever, hence his opposition to Merlina even though her plan would’ve stopped the end of that world.

How about the revelation in Unleashed that it wasn’t just his sense of guilt regarding landing on top of Chip that compelled him to help him? He didn’t need a reason to want to help out his friend. Or his palpable upset/shame at Amy failing to recognise him in Werehog form?

This sense of….how do I explain it? This sense of individuality, of drive to do what he chooses to do without regrets is largely ignored in 2010+ Sonic, leaving a far flatter character who simply isn’t as interesting, dimensional. Sonic has lost alot of his heart. And it’s a crying shame.

So yeah, whilst P&G's handling of the series isn't Shadow, Chronicles, '06 bad to me, it's nothing remotely remarkable either. And I'd much rather see the series embrace writers who pay heed to the series' identity and who actually know the characters.

 

I have to kinda disagree here. Mostly on Sonic not being Sonic or intresting anymore. (also Sonic Colors make me like Sonic even more when I started the series)

Sonic Colors he makes alot of jokes, yes but the jokes are true in his character. For me Sonic was always the fun character who gets things done his way. But Sonic was way more than funny in this game. He was also caring, politie and he risked his life to save a bunch of aliens. Sonic didnt just talk shit he actually kicked robot butts and he didnt do it JUST for the hell for it, but he did it because he had a JOB to do. 

The lines between Sonic and Tails sounds like they were friends for a long time. From making fun of Sonic talking to dead robots to the jabs about who did what in the story. Also Sonic was still the heart of the story wit him risking to save aliens to him shoving Tails in the elevator. The jokes were only a part of his personality.

Sonic Lost World yes he said some mean (and he deserved it) things to Eggman but they were said out of anger for the fact that Eggman did put his friends in danger. In fact all the things happened in the game WERE his fault. And Sonic was annoyed by it. But he still has his heart and even beats himself up when he didnt save his buddy.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Sonikku/

[Kuzu]

I can agree that I definitely want more of Eggman fighting Sonic throughout the game, rather than just being the final boss.

In Lost World's case, he at least got to tag along with Sonic, meaning we got to see more of Eggman the person, rather than just Eggman the recurring boss. I'm okay with it in LW for that reason, though I definitely think Colors would've been a lot better if the generic boss robots had all been various Eggmobile battles.

Y'know, streamline it; Have Eggman do the funny thing and the competent thing at the same time. He can show up, banter with Sonic for a bit, battle him, and then flee before coming back to do it again in the next zone. A very Genesis-esque formula, and one I'd be totally on board with.

Of course, the Adventure games honestly weren't great about this either; Sonic fights Eggman only twice in SA1, and doesn't fight him at all in SA2. Of course, SA2's case is mitigated by the fact that Eggman is at least playable and gets to wreck GUN's forces throughout the game, but yeah.

Lost World is probably his least offensive portrayal with the new writers honestly; I mean yea, he still doesn't do a lot, but its at least sorta justified in actually teaming up with Sonic this time. And like you said, the focus is more on his character. The game didn't have my ideal solution, but I can at least accept it.

I don't mind Eggman being a recurring boss again, but that only worked because there was no narrative weight to it. If he was to show up for a fight in every zone, they'd probably have to help make sense for him to be there. Which isn't that difficult in all honesty, I dunno maybe he's racing Sonic to get the Chaos Emeralds before him. It would at least be a nice callback to Sonic Advenure when he would intercept Sonic and sneak the emeralds from right under him.

Sonic Adventure I can sort of forgive because while Eggman only fights Sonic twice, he still has a pretty obvious presence throughout the game and he does confront Sonic quite a few times, even if he just sics Chaos on him. Sonic Adventure 2...yea, its one of my favorite portrayals and all, but it was extremely weird that Sonic never fought Eggman once; I mean yea, the game's focus was more on Shadow and his rivalry with Sonic, but still. It didn't drag the game down for me or anything, or made Eggman any less of a badass, but its definitely not something that should be done sparingly. 

I don't think anyone here was pretending that SEGA was completely innocent, though and the way you worded your post sounded like you were trying to shift blame onto SEGA when all they've done is make bad games while the crazy side of the fanbase is harassing the people involved over a cartoon hedgehog.

I understand that releasing disappointment after disappointment is going to cause outrage, but c'mon.

When a dog has been kicked enough times, its going to bite back. I mean yea, I agree, its not worth the amount of bile some fans deal out who treat Sonic like an emotional crutch for their lives, but at the same time expecting long-time fans who have dedicated their time and money on this franchise only for it to bumble around and almost never live up to its fullest potential and not expecting just a bit of backlash is unrealistic. We're people too dammit, I think we have a right to get upset once in a while when things don't go our way enough times

 

[Briraka]

When a dog has been kicked enough times, its going to bite back. I mean yea, I agree, its not worth the amount of bile some fans deal out who treat Sonic like an emotional crutch for their lives, but at the same time expecting long-time fans who have dedicated their time and money on this franchise only for it to bumble around and almost never live up to its fullest potential and not expecting just a bit of backlash is unrealistic. We're people too dammit, I think we have a right to get upset once in a while when things don't go our way enough times

 

Well of course, SEGA makes less than stellar games, they're going to get called out for it. Everyone's mileage may vary on certain aspects, but yeah, I'm just going to go with what Azoo said. Crazy people got pissed and here we are, talking about them.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Being fair, Eggman is a comedic villain, but at the end of the day, he's still a villain. A threat. Evil. The person the hero needs to stop because he's such a big threat. Believe me, I love comedic villains, Dr.Nefarious for example is one of my favourite villains, but there's the thing, it was balanced. He is still treated as a legitimate threat. Yes, sometimes Ratchet can play off him in comedic ways, such as in All 4 One where Nefarious claims to Ratchet that he can hurt Qwark and make it look like an accident, Ratchet then begins to ask how interested, until Clank tells him no. But that's also balanced with Nefarious being a competent villain who almost rewrote time itself and managed to backstab and separate the duo for two full years.

Eggman used to be like that. Sure he could be comedic, but Sonic and the others still gave him a bit of credit and respect that while he was at least goofy, he was still a threat, and that's what he was treated like. One of my most favourite lines from Adventure 2 is when Amy is held hostage by Eggman, and Sonic walks in and gives Eggman credit by claiming "You've become a big time villain doctor!" only for his smug attitude to suddenly stop when Eggman tricks and traps him. This can be seen as funny in a way as Sonic's cockiness backfired pretty hard on him, but as TV Tropes would say it, this would count as a Crowning Moment of Awesome for Eggman for how fucking sneaky and smart he was to come up with that plan, because as much as the series plays him off as a joke, he's proven that he can dispatch three of the four heroes in the span of one cutscene and one fight.    

But the problem with the latest games is the feeling of threat is gone. When Sonic and Tails are running around laughing in Eggman's face and calling him the ever stupid nickname of "Baldy McNosehair", it's not funny and it doesn't make Eggman look like a threat. All it does is make Eggman look like a clown who isn't competent enough to be taken seriously. I mean, you say Eggman was clever enough to improvise a plan, but it's was more he made it up as he went. There's no possible way he could have accounted for stuff like the bridge being blown up or Tails being kidnapped and such. In general, that's the problem.

Because of the fact that the writing for Eggman is only really decent, and it's Mike Pollack who sells the lines, that means Eggman doesn't feel like either in the recent games. The writing isn't good enough for him to come off as legitimately funny, and the few times it does, we've been shown by Boom that Eggman's writing can be much better, and because Sonic & Tails act like he's more of a general inconvenience rather than a big threat that needs immediate action, either way, he doesn't feel funny enough, and he doesn't feel like enough of a threat for the heroes to overcome.

[Dr. Mechano]

I think, even moreso than Eggman's goofiness, one aspect that's been at the forefront since Adventure 2 (and possibly earlier, taking the scene where he rescues his nemesis in Sonic 2 for Gamegear into account) is Eggman's moral complexity. And by that I don't mean that he's a particularly complicated character objectively; Just that he has far more nuance or depth than any other antagonist in the series, and by virtue of that alone, he's less "evil" than they are, even if he's not necessarily less threatening.

The result, though, is that we're left with an affable, likable character who can never be the harbinger of destruction, a merciless tyrant, or a heartless monster. Eggman does some truly vile things, but he has limits, and it would be out of character to push him too far. This isn't even about whether he's silly or not; Eggman was played pretty seriously in 2k6 for example, but still helped bring his hated nemesis back to life and hedged his bets on Sonic in the end. 

In many respects, my favorite aspect of Eggman's character - that being his humanity - is precisely the reason he doesn't strike terror into the hearts of his enemies or carry an aura of doom and gloom when he appears. He's a clever, crafty guy who's given Sonic a run for his money on numerous occasions - but unlike the one-off antagonists, Sonic knows Eggman and what he's capable of. And that familiarity (coupled with the fact that they've worked together dozens of times by now) makes their enmity more like an intense rivalry than anything. Heck, official descriptions even outright say that they view each other more as rivals than genuine threats, some of which date back to over a decade ago - long before Pontac and Graff got involved.

Again, I don't think the primary reason for this is that they play up how jokey he is. I think the main reason is that he keeps showing restraint, and is so willing to help the good guys when the chips are down. I think it's Eggman's moments of goodness, not goofiness, that have made Sonic so nonchalant around him. Eggman is a competent foe, but I don't think he'll ever be a scary one. I don't think he was meant to be. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I think, even moreso than Eggman's goofiness, one aspect that's been at the forefront since Adventure 2 (and possibly earlier, taking the scene where he rescues his nemesis in Sonic 2 for Gamegear into account) is Eggman's moral complexity. And by that I don't mean that he's a particularly complicated character objectively; Just that he has far more nuance or depth than any other antagonist in the series, and by virtue of that alone, he's less "evil" than they are, even if he's not necessarily less threatening.

The result, though, is that we're left with an affable, likable character who can never be the harbinger of destruction, a merciless tyrant, or a heartless monster. Eggman does some truly vile things, but he has limits, and it would be out of character to push him too far. This isn't even about whether he's silly or not; Eggman was played pretty seriously in 2k6 for example, but still helped bring his hated nemesis back to life and hedged his bets on Sonic in the end. 

In many respects, my favorite aspect of Eggman's character - that being his humanity - is precisely the reason he doesn't strike terror into the hearts of his enemies or carry an aura of doom and gloom when he appears. He's a clever, crafty guy who's given Sonic a run for his money on numerous occasions - but unlike the one-off antagonists, Sonic knows Eggman and what he's capable of. And that familiarity (coupled with the fact that they've worked together dozens of times by now) makes their enmity more like an intense rivalry than anything. 

Again, I don't think the primary reason for this is that they play up how jokey he is. I think the main reason is that he keeps showing restraint, and is so willing to help the good guys when the chips are down. I think it's Eggman's moments of goodness, not goofiness, that have made Sonic so nonchalant around him. Eggman is a competent foe, but I don't think he'll ever be a scary one. I don't think he was truly meant to be one. 

Fair point, although I'd argue that with the exception of Sonic X and Game Gear Sonic 2, he isn't doing it because his morality is telling him a lot of people can get hurt or such. It's more because if he doesn't help the heroes save the world, than he's not going to be able to conquer it. It's more a situation of his best interests just happening to fall into the best interests of the heroes. For example, if the world wasn't in earth shattering danger like it was in 06, I doubt Eggman would have helped save Sonic. It's only because if he didn't, he would die himself and he wouldn't have a world to conquer.

[Dr. Mechano]

Fair point, although I'd argue that with the exception of Sonic X and Game Gear Sonic 2, he isn't doing it because his morality is telling him a lot of people can get hurt or such. It's more because if he doesn't help the heroes save the world, than he's not going to be able to conquer it. It's more a situation of his best interests just happening to fall into the best interests of the heroes. For example, if the world wasn't in earth shattering danger like it was in 06, I doubt Eggman would have helped save Sonic. It's only because if he didn't, he would die himself and he wouldn't have a world to conquer.

That's fair too. But we also get moments like the end of Sonic Adventure 2, where even after the crisis has been averted, Eggman sticks around and talks with his enemies, even revealing personal insecurities about himself and his childhood. He didn't have to do that. He could've broken into laughter, giddily running away shouting, "I'll get you next time! Ahahaha!" ...But y'know, he didn't.

And I do think that's a notable difference. It would be absurd to imagine Black Doom or Mephiles having a civil, amicable talk with Sonic and the gang. But with Eggman, it feels natural. Right. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about; Eggman is written as a person first, and a villain second. The latter is still important, but not as much as the former.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

That's fair too. But we also get moments like the end of Sonic Adventure 2, where even after the crisis has been averted, Eggman sticks around and talks with his enemies, even revealing personal insecurities about himself and his childhood. He didn't have to do that. He could've broken into laughter, giddily running away shouting, "I'll get you next time! Ahahaha!" ...But y'know, he didn't.

And I do think that's a notable difference. It would be absurd to imagine Black Doom or Mephiles having a civil, amicable talk with Sonic and the gang. But with Eggman, it feels natural. Right. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about; Eggman is written as a person first, and a villain second. The latter is still important, but not as much as the former.

Fair enough, although considering that the game also had Eggman attempt to outright kill Sonic and Amy, it sends a lot of mixed messages, although I can see it as a moment where Eggman just doesn't have the heart to go plot the next scheme, and just wanted to take a breather with the other characters. Giving credit to Eggman, he just had it reveal that his hero was a madman who was ready to kill them all, and in general, considering he based his life on Gerald Robotnik, that must have been a blow to him.

[Kuzu]

There's nothing wrong with Eggman being more human, by all means, its one of the things I do like about him. I just like it in conjunction with his villainy. I don't want either to be completely lost with the character. I just don't think writers have enough of a balance between the two.

Like, Boom!Eggman works for his universe because the conflict between him and Sonic there genuinely is just a sparring session between the two; the worst he does is terrorize with his robots and waits for Sonic & Co to stop him. Hell, when he's not doing that he has no issues just speaking with them casually and even gives them advice on their romantic troubles :V He's more like the Friendly Neighborhood Villain than a legit threat. But you know what, that's fine, that's Boom. 

Sega!Eggman (and I guess by extension, current Archie!Eggman would fall under this category too.) really, truly does want to conquer the world and goes through extreme lengths to do so. And yes, he may welcome the challenge of Sonic stopping him and even save him on occasions just so he can have the last laugh, but I don't think he'd be too upset if he actually succeeded for once. Hell, he seems like the type of guy who would spare Sonic and coax him into joining him all things considered.

 

Boom!Eggman is more of a comical nuisance, Sega!Eggman presents an actual threat. (or at least the potential for one anyway.) 

[Dr. Mechano]

I think one way to make him more threatening without altering his personality would be to give him a few token, non-final victories. And to be fair, the series has done this (such as defeating GUN's forces in SA2, or even outright defeating Super Sonic in Unleashed). We know he's going to lose in the end, but as they say, "Evil always triumphs in the middle." Let him have the upper hand occasionally, so that it'll feel more meaningful to thwart him in the end.

All of this can be done without changing a thing about the way the character himself is written. This is how circumstances and events are written, not personalities.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Dr. Mechano