Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Dr. Mechano]

I am curious how Pontac's and Graff's critics view the writing in games like Shadow/2k6/etc.* Do you find this sort of writing preferable, or equally undesirable, or what? I only ask this because their writing style seems like a deliberate departure from the stories in these games, to distance the series as much as possible from them. So I am curious about how people who are dissatisfied with Pontac/Graff view the writing on the opposite end of the spectrum.

*You'll notice I didn't lump SA2 in with those, because I don't feel it veered into "dark and edgy" territory, and used its dark themes with some degree of nuance and restraint.

[Nepenthe]

I am curious how Pontac's and Graff's critics view the writing in games like Shadow/2k6/etc.* Do you find this sort of writing preferable, or equally undesirable, or what? I only ask this because their writing style seems like a deliberate departure from the stories in these games, to distance the series as much as possible from them. So I am curious about how people who are dissatisfied with Pontac/Graff view the writing on the opposite end of the spectrum.

*You'll notice I didn't lump SA2 in with those, because I don't feel it veered into "dark and edgy" territory, and used its dark themes with some degree of nuance and restraint.

This seems like a loaded question, because the tone of 06 and ShtH didn't actually define the writing style beforehand or even afterwards. There was a range of tone to be had with Adventure era/style writing, and subsequently we saw less of a unified front against games like Heroes or even Unleashed that were more lighthearted than SA2 or 06 on the basis of that difference. Lightheartedness isn't the point of contention here, it's the structure and intent of the writing. What people are after is more active characters and a decent, adventurous plot structure. ShtH and 06 are preferable in that at least they aim to continue those traditions, whilst Colors et. al. eschew them entirely for something else that people feel is less endemic to how Sonic should even be written. This is not a value judgement against jokes and fun, nor a judgement in favor of hamfisted melodrama. The question is, or should be: do you want adventure serial stories driven by action or do you want more humor-vehicle stories driven by dialogue? I'm going to pick the former on philosophical grounds every time.

 

I personally don't see what's wrong with the new writers: I think fans need to see cutscenes and story in Sonic games as more "fanservice" nowadays instead of something that should be deep, yet engaging. Ever since late 2010, with Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors, SEGA has put a huge effort into dumbing Sonic down to be simply what classic Sonic fans and critics have been asking for, for years. part of this "return to roots" has been keeping the story short and sweet, and as simple as the rest of the game.

When I played Sonic Lost World, I wasn't focusing on how poor the writing was or on how much better a job they could've done writing the characters and introducing actual development and all that other crap: I was just happy to see my childhood hero back on the screen again, very pleased to see how much effort they put into the character models and animations, and heavily enjoying just watching Sonic be who he's always been, cracking sarcasic jokes and just being cooler than anything.

Conclusion: Sonic fans, when it comes to cutscenes and story in the new games, just enjoy watching your favorite Blue Blur do what he does best

People who are happy on the basis of these stories being "classic" don't know a thing about the classics, because the classics don't have stories that are this fucking annoying. They're simple but they ask for investment in the events at face value. They don't insult your intelligence and undermine themselves at every turn. They're actually genuine despite their simplicity. Equating Colors' story to any classic game's because they're "lighthearted" is not only a dire misreading of both stories, but actively insulting to the old games in their entirety. It is the most shallow connection imaginable.

Just as well, equating quality storytelling with "crap" or even "unnecessary depth" is the attitude that has actively poisoned discourse about this subject. If you don't care that actual paid professionals are churning out crap, why even try to take a place at the table concerning this discussion? Seriously, what do people actually gain by lobbying against the very concept of good storytelling? People don't say this shit about gameplay, music, the graphics or anything else.

[Kuzu]

 

Just as well, equating quality storytelling with "crap" or even "unnecessary depth" is the attitude that has actively poisoned discourse about this subject. If you don't care that actual paid professionals are churning out crap, why even try to take a place at the table concerning this discussion? Seriously, what do people actually gain by lobbying against the very concept of good storytelling? People don't say this shit about gameplay, music, the graphics or anything else.

At this point, its just a stigma that this series and most mascot platformers unfortunately have; because it stars colorful, talking animals, it can't possibly be thought provoking and engaging in any sort of way, lest we overload the children's little brains with *gasp* complexity. So clearly, the only thing series like Sonic are allowed to be are shallow endeavors with nothing but one-liners and punchlines and we just gotta accept it because "fuck you, its for kids"

 

 

[Nepenthe]

We're not talking about a Raymond Carver story here where there's genuine layers of sociopolitical depth concerning shit like privilege and religion. We're talking about taking a basic Sonic v. Eggman vehicle where characters are active (Sonic gets an Emerald, Eggman schemes to take it immediately) and the narrative is perhaps supplemented with another plot thread or running mystery (Chaos' being developed from a mindless monster to the victimized cause of the Knuckles clan's demise) to make a small thematic point (Negative emotions and reactions need to be empathized with) that make the story a little satisfying. This isn't hard to do and I'm tired of people saying that asking for something from 1998 is some amazing feat of writing wizardry.

[Dr. Mechano]

The question is, or should be: do you want adventure serial stories driven by action or do you want more humor-vehicle stories driven by dialogue? I'm going to pick the former on philosophical grounds every time.

 

What I want more than humor is for the characters and how they relate to one another to be engaging. This isn't even about things like backstory, but about what kind of person the character is right now. Does this character have a personality and struggle that I can be invested in? Do I care what happens to them? Humor is one quick way to humanize a character in order to make it pay off when something serious happens later; When you laugh with a character, you're more likely to cry with them when they actually do go through something heavy later on. This is one reason that introducing a character whose entire personality is "I'm super-serious" (a common issue with fan-stories and amateur writers) is a lot harder to pull off; If this character hasn't endeared themselves to the audience in some way, it's going to take a lot more work to get that audience invested in what they're going through.

Humor's not the only way to do this, of course. But humanizing the characters and depicting them as people is important when you want a high-stakes conflict to carry more weight. In my opinion, games like ShTH and 2K6 failed to do this, because the vast bulk of the dialogue was just exposition; "We should go here!" "We should do this!" "We have to stop Eggman/Mephiles/Iblis!" There were occasional bits of dialogue that gave a glimpse into how these characters actually played off one another, but most of it was bare-bones "We've gotta do the thing" exposition.

I'm not going to pretend that Colors doesn't have the opposite problem. We get to see plenty of Sonic's and Tails's relationship, as well as more of a focus on Sonic's and Eggman's relationship, and how the characters play off one another. This is good, because it endears these characters to the audience and makes their relationships with each other more of a real, tangible thing. The issue is in how the climax is framed; Eggman's got his super-mech, and he's about to enslave the planet with his mind control ray. But Sonic's smirking and cracking jokes at a time where he actually should be buckling down and taking things seriously. It's not that Pontac and Graff shouldn't be writing humorous scenes; It's that they don't know when to dial it back for what should be a dramatic moment. Colors had excellent buildup with its character interaction, but a poorly-framed payoff.

I think Lost World was a lot better on both fronts, but again, the climax was framed badly thanks to how perpetually unfazed Sonic was. Eggman arriving in his huge mech after faking his own death could have been handled with some gravity, but it wasn't. The issue isn't what happened; The issue is the framing of what happened. (However, other tense moments, such as Eggman saving Sonic's life and Sonic seeming genuinely moved at his sacrifice, actually do hit their mark rather well, I'm going to say.)

The short answer: I want both. Give us good dialogue to flesh out the characters, humanize them, get us invested in them. Then frame those characters' struggles as... well, actual struggles. Not something they snicker or yawn at. I think that together, both aspects can work in tandem to make a really engaging story presentation for this series. And in my opinion, Pontac/Graff did start to get better at this as time went on. Time will tell if they continue to improve, or if we're even getting any more of their work in the future, though.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I personally don't see what's wrong with the new writers: I think fans need to see cutscenes and story in Sonic games as more "fanservice" nowadays instead of something that should be deep, yet engaging. Ever since late 2010, with Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors, SEGA has put a huge effort into dumbing Sonic down to be simply what classic Sonic fans and critics have been asking for, for years. part of this "return to roots" has been keeping the story short and sweet, and as simple as the rest of the game.

When I played Sonic Lost World, I wasn't focusing on how poor the writing was or on how much better a job they could've done writing the characters and introducing actual development and all that other crap: I was just happy to see my childhood hero back on the screen again, very pleased to see how much effort they put into the character models and animations, and heavily enjoying just watching Sonic be who he's always been, cracking sarcasic jokes and just being cooler than anything. Colors and Lost World sort of reminded me of the sheer pleasure of watching Sonic as a Saturday morning cartoon. You didn't always need a deep plot or excellent writing, you just need a charming character, and that's what Colors and Lost World really capitalized on, for myself as a Sonic fan.

Speaking quickly regarding the "drama" in Lost World, I really enjoyed watching Sonic and Tails, again, characters I'm fond of, have to deal with some issues. Is it anything unbelievably well written? No, but if you really love the characters, you should experience happiness of some sort to see them interacting with each other in familiar, and unique (yet simple) new ways.

In terms of Generations, the nature of the game itself means that the story was just being forced out so that classic and modern Sonics could come together. We didn't need anything fancy, because if they do anything fancy, critics whine about it and then people mock the games and blame SEGA for trying to make Sonic into something bigger than "what it really is", according to fans and critics.

Conclusion: Sonic fans, when it comes to cutscenes and story in the new games, just enjoy watching your favorite Blue Blur do what he does best

Fanservice? Where the hell is there any fanservice to be found in these games? At most, we get Sonic and Tails making very brief references twice in Sonic Generations and that's it. Nothing more. Is seeing Tails act like an underdeveloped brat who's completely against his normal personality for the sake of forced drama meant to be fan service?

As for "Your childhood hero being back on the screen again". Um, at that stage, he literally had a game every single year, between the main series, spinoffs, and Sonic & All-Stars Racing. And sorry to tell you, but good character models and animations does not make up for a shitty story. I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't. As for Sonic's sarcastic jokes and such. I once again bring this up: 

Sonic's "sarcastic" jokes don't work because they're either so obvious and bad, that'd they're just plain unfunny "Move it or lose it Snowcone!". It gets to the point where it sounds like a 5 year old is trying to be a wisecracker because the quality of these "jokes" are so terrible. Would you really expect a teenager to say something like "Sorry" and then go "Oh, what I meant was I'm sorry you don't have anything better to do in life". That isn't something a 15-16 year old character would come up with. That's something a 5 or 6 year old would come up with. Sonic might as well have gone up to Zeena and said "Oh hey, I think you're pretty" and then go "NOT HAHA". That's the kind of terrible humor we've gotten to in the series.

That's not even mentioning the fact that the writers seem to believe the player needs to be told when to laugh, because of course, the player isn't smart enough to know good humor. No No, you have to be told when you are meant to laugh. Shit like Sonic/Tails constantly laughing at each other's terrible jokes and then shouting "HAHA GOOD ONE BUDDY", or stuff like Sonic's "That was cool. Pun. Totally. Intended." That's why these jokes don't work. Not only are they not thought out enough to actually be funny to most people, but they decide they constantly want to shove it down everyone's faces what the punchline of the joke is meant to be. That isn't what you do in humor. A good joke is meant to have a smart punchline that anyone can get. Not a stupid one that's obvious and then the game needs to clarify by saying "THIS IS WHERE YOU LAUGH GUYS!....WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING".

As for Generations, we didn't need anything fancy? Are you kidding me? The 20th anniversary of the series? The big 20 years? A fucking time travel plot that has Sonic going back to all his previous adventures? There was so much potential for a good plot. That's seriously what I believe is one of the biggest problems in our current gaming generation. The fact that the character is a character that's meant to be enjoyed by both kids and adults means that the developers and writers can place any old crap down because "It doesn't matter, they're kids!" 

Like exactly what's so wrong with offering a good decent plot that provides narrative for the player to go through the game? That was released at the tail end of the Seventh Generation. A shitty plot is completely inexcusable at that point. Especially with a game which had the potential to be the ultimate love letter to Sonic fans. We could have had a plot where Eggman goes around and screws around with the levels and timelines, which could explain the alterations to the levels, like for example, maybe he traveled to City Escape and did the modifications to the G.U.N truck? That'd be pretty cool, and would give him a much more active role in the story. 

Instead, we get a generic plot, where almost nothing whatsoever is explained and we're just expected to go around with it because how dare we  expect a half decent plot from a 20th anniversary game.

I am curious how Pontac's and Graff's critics view the writing in games like Shadow/2k6/etc.* Do you find this sort of writing preferable, or equally undesirable, or what? I only ask this because their writing style seems like a deliberate departure from the stories in these games, to distance the series as much as possible from them. So I am curious about how people who are dissatisfied with Pontac/Graff view the writing on the opposite end of the spectrum.

*You'll notice I didn't lump SA2 in with those, because I don't feel it veered into "dark and edgy" territory, and used its dark themes with some degree of nuance and restraint.

No, I can't say I liked Shadow and 06's plot. They were melodramatic and trying far too hard to be edgy. But that's one end of the extreme. That also doesn't mean I want stories where the jokes are lackluster and stupid, the characters are as one-note as you get, characters' personalities are changed at a finger snap to either fit around stupid jokes, or to force in stupid drama. I want a balance. I want a story which can be serious and offers character depth, and a good narrative to keep going, but also keeps the characters' personalities at the forefront and throws in smartly written humor. 

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I personally don't see what's wrong with the new writers: I think fans need to see cutscenes and story in Sonic games as more "fanservice" nowadays instead of something that should be deep, yet engaging. Ever since late 2010, with Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors, SEGA has put a huge effort into dumbing Sonic down to be simply what classic Sonic fans and critics have been asking for, for years. part of this "return to roots" has been keeping the story short and sweet, and as simple as the rest of the game.

When I played Sonic Lost World, I wasn't focusing on how poor the writing was or on how much better a job they could've done writing the characters and introducing actual development and all that other crap: I was just happy to see my childhood hero back on the screen again, very pleased to see how much effort they put into the character models and animations, and heavily enjoying just watching Sonic be who he's always been, cracking sarcasic jokes and just being cooler than anything. Colors and Lost World sort of reminded me of the sheer pleasure of watching Sonic as a Saturday morning cartoon. You didn't always need a deep plot or excellent writing, you just need a charming character, and that's what Colors and Lost World really capitalized on, for myself as a Sonic fan.

Speaking quickly regarding the "drama" in Lost World, I really enjoyed watching Sonic and Tails, again, characters I'm fond of, have to deal with some issues. Is it anything unbelievably well written? No, but if you really love the characters, you should experience happiness of some sort to see them interacting with each other in familiar, and unique (yet simple) new ways.

In terms of Generations, the nature of the game itself means that the story was just being forced out so that classic and modern Sonics could come together. We didn't need anything fancy, because if they do anything fancy, critics whine about it and then people mock the games and blame SEGA for trying to make Sonic into something bigger than "what it really is", according to fans and critics.

Conclusion: Sonic fans, when it comes to cutscenes and story in the new games, just enjoy watching your favorite Blue Blur do what he does best

I see nothing wrong with the new people either, I actually like the new writers like I say before. 

Your right on Sonic Generations. Its one of my favorite games because its simple to the point. Two Sonics race to save the world and there friends with fun gameplay. And I'm not a classic fan at all.

[NoirSuede]

 

That's not even mentioning the fact that the writers seem to believe the player needs to be told when to laugh, because of course, the player isn't smart enough to know good humor. No No, you have to be told when you are meant to laugh. Shit like Sonic/Tails constantly laughing at each other's terrible jokes and then shouting "HAHA GOOD ONE BUDDY", or stuff like Sonic's "That was cool. Pun. Totally. Intended." That's why these jokes don't work. Not only are they not thought out enough to actually be funny to most people, but they decide they constantly want to shove it down everyone's faces what the punchline of the joke is meant to be. That isn't what you do in humor. A good joke is meant to have a smart punchline that anyone can get. Not a stupid one that's obvious and then the game needs to clarify by saying "THIS IS WHERE YOU LAUGH GUYS!....WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING".

 

5char

Edited October 1, 2015 by NoirSuede

[Vertekins]

I am curious how Pontac's and Graff's critics view the writing in games like Shadow/2k6/etc.* Do you find this sort of writing preferable, or equally undesirable, or what? I only ask this because their writing style seems like a deliberate departure from the stories in these games, to distance the series as much as possible from them. So I am curious about how people who are dissatisfied with Pontac/Graff view the writing on the opposite end of the spectrum.

*You'll notice I didn't lump SA2 in with those, because I don't feel it veered into "dark and edgy" territory, and used its dark themes with some degree of nuance and restraint.

As a P&G critic, I view '06' and Shadow's execution of their tones and their writing in general to be pathetic, try-hard and quite frankly a stain on the series, the tone of which was uncharacteristic of the series and the writing challenged on even a basic level.

I feel the same sentiments towards the current writing's tone and general writing quality.

I have a thing against shitty writing. Which '06, Shadow, Colours, Generations, Shattered Crystal and to an extent Lost World had.

I don't have a thing against serious or lighthearted aspects in a Sonic game's narrative. I peronally prefer a balance but I have nothing against a game being lighthearted or dark if it's competently executed.

Also, I'm tired of hearing the assertion that because the series has had crap writing in the past that somehow makes the current writing quality/standards preferable and the other assertion that '06 and Shadow mean that the series writing shouldn't even try to embrace incorporating serious aspects. I mean, do the Adventure games, Unleashed and the Storybook games suddenly not exist?

Those five games may not feature the pinnacle of videogame storytelling, not by any reasonable judgment, but I'll give them one thing - They exhibited a sort of identity in terms of progression and thematics that felt....you know....genuinely Sonic-esque. To me at least, they exhibited a sort of identity that felt right for the series and characterized the characters very well in general.

I seriously miss that and hope that it'll return some day.

 

[Dr. Crusher]

Those five games may not feature the pinnacle of videogame storytelling, not by any reasonable judgment, but I'll give them one thing - They exhibited a sort of identity in terms of progression and thematics that felt....you know....genuinely Sonic-esque. To me at least, they exhibited a sort of identity that felt right for the series and characterized the characters very well in general.

I'll have to disagree on that, at least in the case of Adventure 2, as even when I played it for the first time and didn't mind it as much, it's story still felt very... off. I'm fine with Adventure 1's for the most part, so I agree with that example, but aside from some minor details, Adventure 2 in general has always felt very drab to me.

I'm all for more storytelling and development in the series, but I don't think I'd be up for ones that are heavily in the style of that particular example.

[Dr. Mechano]

Also, I'm tired of hearing the assertion that because the series has had crap writing in the past that somehow makes the current writing quality/standards preferable and the other assertion that '06 and Shadow mean that the series writing shouldn't even try to embrace incorporating serious aspects. I mean, do the Adventure games, Unleashed and the Storybook games suddenly not exist?

Unleashed is a fine example of a story, even if I wasn't wild about its gameplay. Looking at Eggman specifically, it manages to portray him as a dastardly, competent supervillain who managed to sap the power right out of Super Sonic and finally build Eggmanland... while still portraying him as a pompous egotistical blowhard, and even devoting a scene to him eating a sandwich and bantering with his sarcastic minion. It was a beautiful marriage of the two extremes, and I agree I'd like to see more of it.

It was somewhat sullied with him being usurped by a another giant generic dragon who didn't even talk though. Dark Gaia was kind of the ultimate anticlimax to an otherwise stellar performance, and not simply because he wasn't Eggman; Because he wasn't a character with any sense of personality. Eggman was on his A-game throughout Unleashed, and it would've been the perfect time for him to reclaim his main-villain status, instead of waiting two more years for Colors to take that honor. Ah well, I do agree that the rest of it was good though.

And sure, I'd be fine with seeing another game in a similar vein. My criticisms of Sonic's dark age have never extended to Unleashed, a game that I feel shares a lot of the factors I liked about Colors/Lost World.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Dr. Mechano

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I do have to say though I hate the storybook series (well I like Sonic and the Black Knight) when it comes to the gameplay but they have awesome stories and the greatest Sonic protryal in the series. I am  BIG BIG BIG fan of Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations and I dont like the controls in Sonic Lost World, I love the shit out of that game and the writing but the other series have better writing for Sonic.

I want to see that and this mixed together. Make it happen!

Edited October 1, 2015 by Sonikku/

[Kuzu]

We're not talking about a Raymond Carver story here where there's genuine layers of sociopolitical depth concerning shit like privilege and religion. We're talking about taking a basic Sonic v. Eggman vehicle where characters are active (Sonic gets an Emerald, Eggman schemes to take it immediately) and the narrative is perhaps supplemented with another plot thread or running mystery (Chaos' being developed from a mindless monster to the victimized cause of the Knuckles clan's demise) to make a small thematic point (Negative emotions and reactions need to be empathized with) that make the story a little satisfying. This isn't hard to do and I'm tired of people saying that asking for something from 1998 is some amazing feat of writing wizardry.

It should say a lot about people's view of the series when something like Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are considered "exceptional" writing, but feel things like Colors and Lost World to be the standard to abide by. Really think about that for a second and how that view compares to literally everything else.

[azoo]

To be honest I'm tired of defending Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2, Unleashed and etc's storylines, because they all needed work for different reasons.

They're the only examples I can give though, because they're pretty good and have traits I'd like to see in future Sonic game stories, but that's about all I can really give them because they're not exemplary by any stretch of the imagination. Well, Adventure gets really close, but Adventure also suffers from pacing issues.

I just want stories that keep you excited and on your toes, where you feel like they matter. Characters that are appealing and make you want to invest in them. Interactions between said characters that make their presence all the more worthwhile. A mythos that's vague enough for mystery but enough to whet your appetite. Stories that don't talk down to you, and jokes that aren't shoved down your throat. Something adventurous.. the spirit of adventure in a good story really makes me feel alive and that's what good Sonic games have given me. 

But there's really no other way to say that other than try to explain what it'd be like if the classic games actually had a script, or explain how these games have good stories whenever they have their spotty moments. It's a rough situation.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Azoo

[Nepenthe]

 

What I want more than humor is for the characters and how they relate to one another to be engaging. This isn't even about things like backstory, but about what kind of person the character is right now. Does this character have a personality and struggle that I can be invested in? Do I care what happens to them? Humor is one quick way to humanize a character in order to make it pay off when something serious happens later; When you laugh with a character, you're more likely to cry with them when they actually do go through something heavy later on. This is one reason that introducing a character whose entire personality is "I'm super-serious" (a common issue with fan-stories and amateur writers) is a lot harder to pull off; If this character hasn't endeared themselves to the audience in some way, it's going to take a lot more work to get that audience invested in what they're going through.

Humor's not the only way to do this, of course. But humanizing the characters and depicting them as people is important when you want a high-stakes conflict to carry more weight. In my opinion, games like ShTH and 2K6 failed to do this, because the vast bulk of the dialogue was just exposition; "We should go here!" "We should do this!" "We have to stop Eggman/Mephiles/Iblis!" There were occasional bits of dialogue that gave a glimpse into how these characters actually played off one another, but most of it was bare-bones "We've gotta do the thing" exposition.

I'm not going to pretend that Colors doesn't have the opposite problem. We get to see plenty of Sonic's and Tails's relationship, as well as more of a focus on Sonic's and Eggman's relationship, and how the characters play off one another. This is good, because it endears these characters to the audience and makes their relationships with each other more of a real, tangible thing. The issue is in how the climax is framed; Eggman's got his super-mech, and he's about to enslave the planet with his mind control ray. But Sonic's smirking and cracking jokes at a time where he actually should be buckling down and taking things seriously. It's not that Pontac and Graff shouldn't be writing humorous scenes; It's that they don't know when to dial it back for what should be a dramatic moment. Colors had excellent buildup with its character interaction, but a poorly-framed payoff.

I think Lost World was a lot better on both fronts, but again, the climax was framed badly thanks to how perpetually unfazed Sonic was. Eggman arriving in his huge mech after faking his own death could have been handled with some gravity, but it wasn't. The issue isn't what happened; The issue is the framing of what happened. (However, other tense moments, such as Eggman saving Sonic's life and Sonic seeming genuinely moved at his sacrifice, actually do hit their mark rather well, I'm going to say.)

The short answer: I want both. Give us good dialogue to flesh out the characters, humanize them, get us invested in them. Then frame those characters' struggles as... well, actual struggles. Not something they snicker or yawn at. I think that together, both aspects can work in tandem to make a really engaging story presentation for this series. And in my opinion, Pontac/Graff did start to get better at this as time went on. Time will tell if they continue to improve, or if we're even getting any more of their work in the future, though.

I don't think my question excludes the potential for empathetic characterization anymore than previous writing attempts excluded the ability to have a variance in tone throughout the respective games as I've already argued is the problem with your framing of the current games' directly against the absolute worst ones as if they were the standard, so I feel like we're approaching the issue on two different wavelengths. In my view, this isn't a battle of "humanization" versus "lack of humanization" because I don't believe that the previous stories were structured in a way that had to exclude that in order to work; they just so happened to regardless. And really, that's not even why people are upset now. People are upset because they don't like the current plotting structure (among other reasons), and it's such an oft-repeated sore spot that discussing tone and characterization instead is just completely side-stepping the issue.

Subsequently I disagree that the main issue of Colors is the framing of its climax, but rather the plotting. The story is limp due to the fact that Eggman doesn't do a single thing of worth until the climax. He doesn't seem worried about the generators being destroyed because he's not checking up on them nor doing much of anything to stop Sonic as he continually progresses, the whole "Tails is mind-controlled" bit peters out into nothing that's eventfully or thematically meaningful, and overall he's a complete background character who fails to give Sonic any real opposition and thus create conflict. So on the other side of the coin, Sonic and Tails take very little of anything seriously because the lack of conflict means destroying some machines is a relative walk in the park, and whatever conflict they may have is simply playful banter resolved in seconds. Also, Yacker disappears for no reason.

And underneath the surface the game completely lacks subtext. It's not "about" much of anything. Characters do not learn or confront anything particularly interesting, they don't change or grow in some way big or small, morals are not reinforced, nothing. Previous games at least had that going for them as well, so much to the point that it's nearly impossible to argue that Colors is a better story about friendship than, say, Unleashed, even though we get a more detailed look into the way Sonic and Tails act as friends towards each other in the cut scenes.

Lost World is different because there is an attempt to kind of bring back in more moments where characters are acting and reacting to the events around them, but at the same time I find it more intolerable because its point to explore the moral and ethical implications of the characters' actions is so badly handled that its story is still an overall net negative as far as my enjoyment is concerned.

Just as well, actions and reactions are valid ways to compel humanization too because they indirectly inform the personalities of the characters anyway, and in a visual medium showing over telling is highly important. Interesting dialogue shouldn't go away, but a story composed 95% of cut scenes where characters stand around and talk will never really make for an actual action-adventure story, and at the very least I feel the Sonic series should stick to that genre well before we even start talking about tone, characterization, and plot. Seriously, the genre should be as much of a foundation to guiding the game's direction as the fact that Sonic is a blue hedgehog with red sneakers- it's a Bible-worthy bullet point that just shouldn't be fucked with. 

You're right in that we need "both" good dialogue and meaningful action, but again under the context of your original question, I would much rather go back to a writing environment where ShtH and Sonic 06 can just so happen to exist if it means I also get my SA1s and Unleasheds, then to keep plodding along under Colors' storytelling structure and receive either skeletal stuff like Gens or morally infuriating stuff like Lost World with the arguable trade-off of "better characterization" because ultimately good characterization and agreeable tone are not exclusive to the current plots. We need to stop framing these different things as a dichotomy, particularly when it's missing the point about why people are dissatisfied.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Subsequently, I disagree that the main issue of Colors is the framing of its climax. Again, it's the plotting. The story is limp due to the fact that Eggman doesn't do a single thing of worth until the climax. He doesn't seem worried about the generators being destroyed because he's not checking up on them nor doing much of anything to stop Sonic as he continually progresses, the whole "Tails is mind-controlled" bit peters out into nothing that's eventfully or thematically meaningful, and overall he's a complete background character who fails to give Sonic any real opposition and thus force conflict. So on the other side of the coin, Sonic and Tails take very little of anything seriously because the lack of conflict means destroying some machines is a relative walk in the park. Also, Yacker disappears.

I'd even argue that Eggman doesn't even have a presence in the story apart from being the final boss, because his entire plan is riddled with plotholes. We see him take control of Tails with two full tanks of alien energy and what happened? He needed to control Tails like a literal puppet, and two entire tanks of energy only lasted like 1 minute. So what was Eggman's plan gonna be? Shoot his mind control beam at the world and then just pick random people and play a game of action figures with them or something? Even then, considering 2 tanks of energy only managed to brainwash one person for one minute, exactly how does he intend on keeping every person on the planet mindcontrolled and over a long period of time? Simply put, he can't.

[Mauro Fonseca]

But there's really no other way to say that other than try to explain what it'd be like if the classic games actually had a script, or explain how these games have good stories whenever they have their spotty moments. It's a rough situation.

I mean, there is, you and me know it

"Like the OVA but with the correct lore" seems to me a pretty good way of putting it. Probably.

[azoo]

I mean, there is, you and me know it

"Like the OVA but with the correct lore" seems to me a pretty good way of putting it. Probably.

...Yeah, tbh you're right on the money. The OVA's tone but instead with SegaSonic lore is my ideal direction.

It covers all bases, really. Cutesy, 90s anime-ish style blended with colorful rubberhose cartoon characters? Check. Lots of action and adventure? Check. Lots of backstory, lore, and character interactions? Check. Springs, badniks, robotic empires, and biplanes? Check check check. Jokes that are often fun or clever instead of in-your-face and forced? Checkarooni. 

Sigh.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Azoo

[Mauro Fonseca]

All that and plus the best Sonic voice Sonic has ever had short of the early Japanese arcade games

[azoo]

All that and plus the best Sonic voice Sonic has ever had short of the early Japanese arcade games

Couldn't personally hear Martin Burke's Sonic on current Sonic (okay maybe I sort of can) but I overall agree, at least for classic Sonic.

We're getting off topic though, lol. Kind of forgot this was a Pontac/Graff related discussion topic.

[Kuzu]

I mean, its not like Sonic Adventure, Unleashed or the like are really that "out there" for the series and it bugs the hell out of me that people to this day still say so. Its like...its literally your run-of-the-mill Action-Adventure plot with the appropriate amount of stakes and context to make things engaging; the characters don't just stand around and say one-liners, they're constantly reacting to the different situations they're put in by the villain. The characters grow accordingly based on these experiences. 

 

This is literally storytelling 101, the absolute basic things you need to get ANYONE invested in your setting or characters...but apparently, its still "too much" for some people. Its just...."Buh whaaaa". Either my definition of "storytelling 101" is off or people really have low standards for the base writing quality for this series.

[Fake Hedgehog]

Pontac and Graff are the worst things to ever happen to this series. And Roger Craig Smith is a devil.

Wtf did you do you my hedgehog?

This might be me hoping more than it is expecting, but they will switch back to the old writers and characterizations for 2016 and onward main series games. The 2010 writing shift was a test to see how fans would receive an Americanized Sonic before they came out with Boom.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I can personally confirm I have once accidentally summoned Roger Craig Smith on a Halloween ritual.

[Fake Hedgehog]

Trust in Iizuka with your heart and soul. Send him your power, only he can save us from this hell.

The second coming of Jason Griffith is upon us.

[azoo]

Pontac/Graff and RCS are people given jobs and must work under particular guidelines. I can't say much of Pontac/Graff about their work outside of said limitations (despite thinking their writing within this series is pretty naff), but RCS is a great voice actor. A great Sonic, I wouldn't say, but a great voice actor. 

Getting all bent up over their presence as if they are an actual evil is a bit silly though.

I can personally confirm I have once accidentally summoned Roger Craig Smith on a Halloween ritual.

Trust in Iizuka with your heart and soul. Send him your power, only he can save us from this hell.

The second coming of Jason Griffith is upon us.

Oh yeah and enough of this. :v No really, don't do it.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Azoo