The longevity of the Boost formula

[NoirSuede]

I've heard a lot people complain that "Sonic Team should've kept the Boost formula instead of f***ing around with experimental s*** like the Parkour", but why though ?

[Ratcicle King]

Because the lack of consistency is what got the series into this mess in the first place?

Think about it, yes, as much as some of us don't like SA and SA2, they had some solid gameplay, and even if sometimes introduced some stupid ideas, they kept trying to evolve and perfect the concepts they had there. Then after that it was ''Hey how about Sonic but with teams?'' then ''Hey how about SHADOW and with guns?'' and then they tried going back to the adventure formula with 06, but that failed spectacurarly, then we had Sonic with motion controls, then Sonic with sword motion controls, then we had a good foundation, but buried under a Sonic beat'em up, then Colors picked up where that foundation stopped, and improved it, and then Generations perfected it, nailing the formula and putting it to good use with the level design. So where do we go from there? Let's scrap that formula entirely because we want to work on something new. 

Why? Why can't Sonic have consistency? The Sonic gameplay isn't a puzzle, it's not about solving it then going ''ok now I'm done with it, onward to the next puzzle'', no, once you perfect the gameplay you should focus on keeping it consistent and finding ways of complementing it, not reinventing the franchise all over again because you got bored.

[pppp]

Here's why:

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I think the boost is something that needs to be kept around. I was sad when they got rid of the boost in the games. It adds fun to the game and a sense of speed and the boost is awesome is the player if has skills enough to use it in ways like air boosting. This was one thing that keeps the 3D games less boring and kinda less crappy. 

[Clewis]

Because of how Lost World turned out. Alternatively they might have just found the boost formula fun to play.

I'm not really a big fan of the gameplay styles found in either Generations or Lost World, however I do feel like LW's gameplay is more flexible and contains a lot more potential compared to that of the boost trilogy, so I'm not going to complain about how the latter was ultimately dropped.

Sonic Team really does need to work on how mechanical Sonic's movement feels in Lost World, though. Everything about the run button and how the homing attack works just feels bleh.

[Badnik Mechanic]

I've heard a lot people complain that "Sonic Team should've kept the Boost formula instead of f***ing around with experimental s*** like the Parkour", but why though ?

Because whilst not perfect, the games were in fact getting better with each game. Sonic 06 caused irreversible damage to the franchises future, it's never going away, any bad game in a long series is compared to it and any bad sonic games will always be compared to it.

But that said, the games were improving, from unleashed all the way to generations, the games were getting better and better.

Now the boost has problems, it's not perfect. 

But my god, when SLW came out and Sega started the 'lets slow Sonic down' and so many people bought it as being a good move instead of seeing it for what it was, an out of character slow gimmick, no, this wasn't a good move at all... and Boom... good God, there should be a law about letting it in the house!

With the boost formula, you sorta knew what to expect with Sonic games, you would go fast, hit robots and fight the boss at the end. Then SLW comes along and totally changes all that and changes it badly. 

[NoirSuede]

Personally i think that Sonic Team dropped the Boost formula because they know that they can't keep making 42 mile long levels just to have a completion time that's approaching other games, and they know that slapping in a gimmick to fill up half of the game and stop them from having to make 42 mile long levels all the time won't work anymore, so with Lost World they're trying to find a formula that won't make them implode and to be honest they're already half-way there.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Lost World did seem slow to me and I like that Sonic had awesome powers they could have given him the boost to

[FriendBot]

Because the lack of consistency is what got the series into this mess in the first place?

Think about it, yes, as much as some of us don't like SA and SA2, they had some solid gameplay, and even if sometimes introduced some stupid ideas, they kept trying to evolve and perfect the concepts they had there. Then after that it was ''Hey how about Sonic but with teams?'' then ''Hey how about SHADOW and with guns?'' and then they tried going back to the adventure formula with 06, but that failed spectacurarly, then we had Sonic with motion controls, then Sonic with sword motion controls, then we had a good foundation, but buried under a Sonic beat'em up, then Colors picked up where that foundation stopped, and improved it, and then Generations perfected it, nailing the formula and putting it to good use with the level design. So where do we go from there? Let's scrap that formula entirely because we want to work on something new. 

Why? Why can't Sonic have consistency? The Sonic gameplay isn't a puzzle, it's not about solving it then going ''ok now I'm done with it, onward to the next puzzle'', no, once you perfect the gameplay you should focus on keeping it consistent and finding ways of complementing it, not reinventing the franchise all over again because you got bored.

But Sonic from SA1 to 06 was pretty much consistent.

Sonic's gameplay from SA1 and SA2 is pretty much the same things but with some added mechanics when it comes to Heroes and Shadow. Heroes is just pretty much like Sonic's gameplay but with combat and team mechanics and Shadow is like Heroes but with weapons. THERE WAS NO DRASTIC CHANGE DURING THIS PERIOD AT ALL!

06 was a mess with ideas from the Adventure games and the combat mechanics from Heroes and Shadow.

I seriously don't understand how anyone could say that?! It was pretty consistent in terms of gameplay.

The Boost was the ACTUAL first revamp in gameplay, the level design had a drastic change to accommodate it and the levels became a lot more linear than ever and felt more like obstacle courses than actual levels to explore.

Also Colors actively discourages you from boosting, I mean you most likely die if you boost from 80% of the game's levels. Generations was kind of fine, finding that balance of platforming and speed but the Adventure games found that balance better.

I just sick of the Boost and I would rather have it be on handheld games instead. The Parkour can be a much interesting mechanic to use than Boosting.

[NoirSuede]

 

I just sick of the Boost and I would rather have it be on handheld games instead. The Parkour can be a much interesting mechanic to use than Boosting.

Yeah, with Boost the levels pretty much have to be a straight line, while with Parkour they can contort the level shape (like an outdoor area that leads to an indoor area with multiple entrances) whatever they want because you no longer have to worry about faceplanting to a wall.

[Ratcicle King]

But Sonic from SA1 to 06 was pretty much consistent.

Sonic's gameplay from SA1 and SA2 is pretty much the same things but with some added mechanics when it comes to Heroes and Shadow. Heroes is just pretty much like Sonic's gameplay but with combat and team mechanics and Shadow is like Heroes but with weapons. THERE WAS NO DRASTIC CHANGE DURING THIS PERIOD AT ALL!

06 was a mess with ideas from the Adventure games and the combat mechanics from Heroes and Shadow.

I seriously don't understand how anyone could say that?! It was pretty consistent in terms of gameplay.

The Boost was the ACTUAL first revamp in gameplay, the level design had a drastic change to accommodate it and the levels became a lot more linear than ever and felt more like obstacle courses than actual levels to explore.

Also Colors actively discourages you from boosting, I mean you most likely die if you boost from 80% of the game's levels. Generations was kind of fine, finding that balance of platforming and speed but the Adventure games found that balance better.

I just sick of the Boost and I would rather have it be on handheld games instead. The Parkour can be a much interesting mechanic to use than Boosting.

Yes, however does that even matter? Sonic Team will probably drop it once they perfect it, if they didn't already drop it after SLW's reception, why? Because just like the boost, they'll get tired of the same gameplay and try to reinvent the franchise once again.

See where I'm getting at here? Lack of consistency, no matter if you like or hate the gameplay, NO ONE will win if they have no consistency.

[NoirSuede]

Yes, however does that even matter? Sonic Team will probably drop it once they perfect it, if they didn't already drop it after SLW's reception, why? Because just like the boost, they'll get tired of the same gameplay and try to reinvent the franchise once again.

See where I'm getting at here? Lack of consistency, no matter if you like or hate the gameplay, NO ONE will win if they have no consistency.

Do they have any reason to drop the Parkour though ? Remember, Sonic Team dropped the Adventure style because of 06's bad rap, and then Sonic Team dropped Boost because it was too taxing for the team.

[FriendBot]

Yes, however does that even matter? Sonic Team will probably drop it once they perfect it, if they didn't already drop it after SLW's reception, why? Because just like the boost, they'll get tired of the same gameplay and try to reinvent the franchise once again.

See where I'm getting at here? Lack of consistency, no matter if you like or hate the gameplay, NO ONE will win if they have no consistency.

The Parkour can be a lot more flexible than the Boost can ever be so you can never be bored of the Parkour, heck you could even make it a Sonic-exclusive ability if you were to add multiple characters and need a unique ability for Sonic.

[Penny]

But Sonic from SA1 to 06 was pretty much consistent.

Sonic's gameplay from SA1 and SA2 is pretty much the same things but with some added mechanics when it comes to Heroes and Shadow. Heroes is just pretty much like Sonic's gameplay but with combat and team mechanics and Shadow is like Heroes but with weapons. THERE WAS NO DRASTIC CHANGE DURING THIS PERIOD AT ALL!

06 was a mess with ideas from the Adventure games and the combat mechanics from Heroes and Shadow.

I seriously don't understand how anyone could say that?! It was pretty consistent in terms of gameplay.

The Boost was the ACTUAL first revamp in gameplay, the level design had a drastic change to accommodate it and the levels became a lot more linear than ever and felt more like obstacle courses than actual levels to explore.

Also Colors actively discourages you from boosting, I mean you most likely die if you boost from 80% of the game's levels. Generations was kind of fine, finding that balance of platforming and speed but the Adventure games found that balance better.

I just sick of the Boost and I would rather have it be on handheld games instead. The Parkour can be a much interesting mechanic to use than Boosting.

In what universe is the whole team mechanic from Heroes less drastic than the boost mechanic from Unleashed? If anything, the team mechanic is a much more drastic change.

 

And how on earth can you say that Heroes and Shadow aren't a drastic change from the Adventure titles? They use a completely different game engines, have very different physics, and the whole team mechanic from Heroes and the gun/morality system in Shadow are miles away from the Adventure games. What's the similarities? They all have Sonic characters, and you run through levels and use the homing attack to attack enemies. Well you know what else has all that? The boost games.

[Ratcicle King]

Do they have any reason to drop the Parkour though ? Remember, Sonic Team dropped the Adventure style because of 06's bad rap, and then Sonic Team dropped Boost because it was too taxing for the team.

For starters, when was it ever said that's the reason they dropped the boost mechanic?

I'm honestly asking because I don't remember that being said anywhere.

The Parkour can be a lot more flexible than the Boost can ever be so you can never be bored of the Parkour, heck you could even make it a Sonic-exclusive ability if you were to add multiple characters and need a unique ability for Sonic.

The Parkour is flexible if used right. Which considering how it was implemented in SLW, isn't how it'd be used if Sonic Team chooses to continue with it. Besides, the Parkour itself was design to complement Sonic's speed. Which he lacks.

Also, comparing the Parkour with the Boost is wrong. The Boost is a gameplay style, with it's own mechanics and level design based around it's use. The Parkour is a mechanic, with some level design rewarding you for remembering it exists, nothing but that, Parkour is pretty much a way of complementing the gameplay, like, say, the Side-Step or the Drift is to the boost Gameplay.

That said, the Parkour WOULD be a good complement to the Boost gameplay, instead of them shoving it on a Sonic game where he's slowed down and makes the Parkour underwhelming at best.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Ratcicle King

[Diogenes]

Yes, however does that even matter? Sonic Team will probably drop it once they perfect it, if they didn't already drop it after SLW's reception, why? Because just like the boost, they'll get tired of the same gameplay and try to reinvent the franchise once again.

See where I'm getting at here? Lack of consistency, no matter if you like or hate the gameplay, NO ONE will win if they have no consistency.

I don't think anyone is defending the idea of constantly changing the gameplay just for the sake of it. That's obviously not going to help. But settling down with the first thing to not burst into flames out of fear of change isn't necessarily the right choice either. They need to be sure what they stick with is actually going to last. And I don't think the boost gameplay could have lasted much longer.

[FriendBot]

 

In what universe is the whole team mechanic from Heroes less drastic than the boost mechanic from Unleashed? If anything, the team mechanic is a much more drastic change.

 

And how on earth can you say that Heroes and Shadow aren't a drastic change from the Adventure titles? They use a completely different game engines, have very different physics, and the whole team mechanic from Heroes and the gun/morality system in Shadow are miles away from the Adventure games. What's the similarities? They all have Sonic characters, and you run through levels and use the homing attack to attack enemies. Well you know what else has all that? The boost games.

The Boost games had different engines and physics as well, what's your point on that?

I don't recall saying Heroes/Shadow is 1:1 to the Adventure games, there's enough of a change to keep it different but relatively the same.

[Penny]

The Boost games had different engines and physics as well, what's your point on that?

I don't recall saying Heroes/Shadow is 1:1 to the Adventure games, there's enough of a change to keep it different but relatively the same.

That Heroes and Shadow are as different, if not more different, than the boost games from previous games.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Maybe they change the style because of the fans? There are fans that want something new Sega does it but then they dont like it and they have to change it again.

[FriendBot]

That Heroes and Shadow are as different, if not more different, than the boost games from previous games.

Based on physics and game engines? I'm no programmer but saying that's some weird reasoning.

 

[NoirSuede]

For starters, when was it ever said that's the reason they dropped the boost mechanic?

I'm honestly asking because I don't remember that being said anywhere.

Just look at how long the levels in the Boost trilogy are, do you think they can keep making levels as long as those when game development costs in this console generation are rising fast ?

[Wraith]

But Sonic from SA1 to 06 was pretty much consistent.

Sonic's gameplay from SA1 and SA2 is pretty much the same things but with some added mechanics when it comes to Heroes and Shadow. Heroes is just pretty much like Sonic's gameplay but with combat and team mechanics and Shadow is like Heroes but with weapons. THERE WAS NO DRASTIC CHANGE DURING THIS PERIOD AT ALL!

06 was a mess with ideas from the Adventure games and the combat mechanics from Heroes and Shadow.

I seriously don't understand how anyone could say that?! It was pretty consistent in terms of gameplay.

The Boost was the ACTUAL first revamp in gameplay, the level design had a drastic change to accommodate it and the levels became a lot more linear than ever and felt more like obstacle courses than actual levels to explore.

Also Colors actively discourages you from boosting, I mean you most likely die if you boost from 80% of the game's levels. Generations was kind of fine, finding that balance of platforming and speed but the Adventure games found that balance better.

I just sick of the Boost and I would rather have it be on handheld games instead. The Parkour can be a much interesting mechanic to use than Boosting.

Do you pay any attention to how the Adventure games play? The Sonic games have always been linear, obstacle course type deals since they went 3D, with exploration becoming less of a factor over time. There's always been a focus  on speed and spectacle. The Boost style just takes that to the extreme.  It's not much more of a diversion than Heroes or Shadow are.

 

If anything, Lost World was the bigger shift. It changed how core mechanics like the homing attack, spindash, and even just getting Sonic to run worked and it was all for the worse. This all happened for pretty much no good reason too. 

Are there problems with the Boost style? Yes. Just do what every other developer does on the planet and make changes to fix it. Levels are too long? Tone down Sonic's speed so you can make shorter levels like you were doing already in Generations. Levels need more exploration?  Make bigger levels and tweak how Sonic controls to accommodate it. Boost is too strong? Make it less easy to use.

There are so many better solutions than tearing everything down and starting from square one.

 

[Ratcicle King]

Based on physics and game engines? I'm no programmer but saying that's some weird reasoning.

 

Thing is, you're confusing gameplay with mechanics. The Parkour is a mechanic, the level design isn't based entirely around it.

The Teams in Heroes are a gameplay style, the entire levels are based around them, they have mechanics to help them work, yes, the core Adventure gameplay is there, but it's not the main focus here, is it? No, it's just part of the core gameplay of this game, which is the team based system.

Shadow is the same deal, the level design asks of you to use guns, yes, it's closer to the Adventure style, but the new gameplay is still enforced here.

Just look at how long the levels in the Boost trilogy are, do you think they can keep making levels as long as those when game development costs in this console generation are rising fast ?

So it's just an assumption, however, just because costs are rising with the new generations, doesn't  mean you need to make a cheap game to save up, yes, costs are rising, but so are the standards of a good game. It's why Sonic Boom is considered shit, it's supposed to be a next gen game, but it feels like a PS2 game at best.

[Penny]

Based on physics and game engines? I'm no programmer but saying that's some weird reasoning.

 

No, not just that. I've played all of them, and none of them play similarly. Heroes doesn't really feel at all like the Adventure games because the whole team mechanic (on top of the different physics and engine) changes the level design and how the game plays drastically. Ditto for the gun and morality system of Shadow. How does the boost change things any more drastically than that stuff?

[NoirSuede]

 

So it's just an assumption, however, just because costs are rising with the new generations, doesn't  mean you need to make a cheap game to save up, yes, costs are rising, but so are the standards of a good game. It's why Sonic Boom is considered shit, it's supposed to be a next gen game, but it feels like a PS2 game at best.

The only reason Rise of Lyric felt like a PS2 game was because they tried to make the WiiU run Crysis.