Do you think Sally should have been/should be killed off?

[Miko]

I felt like making it's own topic because I didn't want to potentially turn the whole Archie thread into a discussion about this in the event other people want to discuss it. I hear every so often from SatAM/Archie fans how cool it'd be if SALLY were in a game, how Sally needs to be in the comics more and how Sally is incredibly popular and should be here to stay.

1. Sally is a fangirl. I'm so sick of people saying I should deal with her ass or have to worse yet deal with her in a damn game because she's Sonic's "first love" because Ricky the squirrel was the first love to Sonic and had a gay relationship apparently. Sally is not Sonic's first love or even a love. If you want to be real Sonic's first fangirl was Madonna. She pretty much admitted it in issue 1 she holds the kind of admiration for Sonic that Tails does. Tails being a character who still hasn't really connected with Sonic in the comic beyond one of Sonic's many hero worshippers. Sally doesn't have a real need for Sonic. There's nothing about him as a person that stands out, that she can't get from her other friends like Bunnie. There's no real love on Sally's end. It's fluffed up and her hero worship is embellished to resemble something akin to love, but it's not and it's about time they just drop the act already. Ian even talks about how Sally loves Sonic because of how he represents freedom as a supposedly "free" spirit tied to her convulted narrative of an incredibly bland Acorn kingdom. Meanwhile the Chaotix serve as free agents and can technically roam the world however they want without having to take orders from the Acorn government.

2. Sally is a problem when it comes to Sonic connecting to the other cast members. She is designed as his foil to his flaws. When this happens, Sonic having a need for anyone else is gone because if Sonic's flaws manifest Sally can deal with it. What point is there then, for him to branch out to the other characters. Despite the fact Sonic's ocassionally called Tails his brother or his "best bud" he opens up far more to Sally and in addition to this he has told Sally she is his best friend in all of Mobius. Now that seems like a bit of a contradiction to cator to Sally's position now doesn't it.

3. People cite that Sally should stay because people presently here like her. Well, Ken Penders has said bare minimum 50% of people wanted by Endgame this character to be killed and for her to remain dead. This was a time when the comics were peaking in sales. Many people who don't like her impact to the comic have left, leaving a lot of would-be buyers alienated. I'm not going to argue she's the ONLY factor for everyone not to read. But she's a pivotal character to the series second only to Sonic in signifficance. For people to wind up feeling THAT damn strongly about the character by Endgame means the REAL world for Archie's fanbase was not crying over Sally and making Save our Sally sites. They were cheering like most of us because Sue was finally going to be put to rest.

4. The plotholes. I'm so sick and friggin tired of seing plotholes to accomodate this character. This character was given a legitimate reason to get out of the damn comic spotlight and stay gone and they STILL brough her back without even really addressing the reasons she left. I do not want to see her in the games. I do not want to see anymore arguing about her going in the games. She would just make things worse. Presently Sonic need to be developed in a way where he actually connects with his so-called friends like he does in Archie. What a wonderful way to "remedy" the problem by putting Sally in there and hogging all meaningful contribution to his life as a character, a personality. If we NEED a "fangirl" we have Amy. It's portrayed normally, the way it would be in the real world. All the characters don't gloat over how wonderful her fangirl relationship to Sonic looks and spruce it up to look like something it's not, but it's comical and has it's moments with some people.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[Dr. Mechano]

I am indifferent to Sally and the other SatAM characters. They're just kind of there for me, and neither add to nor detract from my enjoyment of Archie's portrayal of Sonic.

I'm more about the Sonic vs. Eggman action, and less about the side plots dealing with Dic's merry band of animal buddies. I wouldn't miss them if they were gone, but I'm not actively annoyed enough by them to want them gone either, so I can deal with their presence.

[Mike]

I like Sally. She should stay FOREVER!!!

They should just kill off Sonic. He's been holding the series back for so long. Just make the comic and games all about her.

[Viuely]

I really don't like the fact that Tails gets less attention than Sally. Sally is the ideal foil to Sonic. SHE'S the primary person who addresses his flaws whenever they manifest. And because it's her unique dynamic with Sonic to call him out WHENEVER a flaw manifests, everyone else has filler appliance-based importance to Sonic. Because if the others handle his flaws, to try to contribute to his life in a meaningful way, they'd cheapen Sally's unique dynamic to Sonic.

That said, Sally annoys me with how "perfect" and "idol-esque" she is. Sonic has nothing to offer her as a character. "OMG BUT SHEZ LIEK TOO TENSE SAWNIK MAKES HER CHILL OUT". Umm no. Sally's traditional precautiousness is a virtue not a flaw because she's in a war. Strategizing and worrying about potentially dangerous outcomes is what one is supposed to do to prevent danger. So, even with what Sonic contributes to her, it doesn't curtail any real flaw, and only actually amplifies how perfect and mature she seems because her personality is so much about being on top of things, and Sonic makes people pay attention to that by telling her to "relax".

Sally is an incredibly annoying 1990's feminist wannabe like Lola Bunnie and Princess Jasmine who is in reality a complete strawman to the real agenda because she actually insults women, by implying that they need to be perfect. I think what's more annoying was the fact people actually fell and still fall for this crack headed marketting scheme that was done with so many female characters in the 90's to make a quick buck.

They're only good for being the filler buddies that add to the splash page of manfight. Its always Sally Sally Sally. She's probably the biggest mary sue in the whole franchise, and to me it feels like Lana Lang from Smallville. Put the sue to rest. And @ Miko:

Yes, you just gotta love how it's a children's comic, yet the spotlight hog of the series is a character nobody the "targetted" age is capable of remembering. Yessss.... Archie or rather it's fanbase in support of the current writer only uses that line to curtail the need for critical thinking for good storytelling.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[Flyboy Fox]

I don't like that Sally is closer to Sonic than Tails... but that's how it was in SatAM and I kinda just dealt with it. Sally was Sonic's tag-team partner in that show, and even if the comics don't operate the same dynamic, her prevailance and importance is kind of to be expected.

Having said that, I would not want her to be killed off. She almost was, but it didn't happen and I'm glad of it. Along with Bunnie she is my favourite female character in the entire franchise. I adore her. I would be incredibly sad if she was killed off.

I don't know where people get the idea that Sally is 'perfect'. She's actually deeply flawed, which is one reason WHY I like her. She can be quick-tempered and haughty, quick to jump to conclusions, and at times she lets her emotions get the better of her while at other times she forces her feelings back to the point where she can seem a little _too_ businesslike.

People need to get over the fact that she's the second most central character in the comics after Sonic. Don't like it? Don't read Archie Sonic.

[Mike]

[Viuely]

I don't like that Sally is closer to Sonic than Tails... but that's how it was in SatAM and I kinda just dealt with it. Sally was Sonic's tag-team partner in that show, and even if the comics don't operate the same dynamic, her prevailance and importance is kind of to be expected.

Well, nowadays I'd think the current "targetted age" would expect Amy's prevalence over Sally's.

She can be quick-tempered and haughty, quick to jump to conclusions, and at times she lets her emotions get the better of her while at other times she forces her feelings back to the point where she can seem a little _too_ businesslike.

My problem with Sally is that she's supposed to call Sonic out on these flaws, but as the plot demands, she isn't called out on it. That's my biggest problem with Sally. It's not the fact WE can't see the flaws, that makes it annoying. It's the fact that the characters a written to just ignore it or laugh it off as banter and not really call her out on it. It doesn't really feel like a real flaw.

People need to get over the fact that she's the second most central character in the comics after Sonic. Don't like it? Don't read Archie Sonic.

1. I think you are mistaken. People AREN'T reading Archie, and most fans DON'T like Sally, and it's hurting the book. I think the writer needs to get over the fact that most people don't want her as the second most central character in the comic.

2. This is a bit more minor because Archie is more story-based compared to the games, but Archie comics is supposed to help sell the games by offering them more exposure in another media of entertainment. There is a huge problem when she contorts the story to make it so she's the most important in Sonic's life. Even in SatAM, this was a problem, but it is even moreso now, since there was no storyline in the genesis handheld games. Now it's even more clear that its supposed to be Sonic and Tails, not Sonic and Sally. Archie needs to do a better job at facilitating this, much like they need to do with handling Knuckles in the book.

[Dr. Mechano]

People need to get over the fact that she's the second most central character in the comics after Sonic.

I don't know if I'd call her that, now.

Although I am- as I've established- largely indifferent to the character, I've noticed that her prevalence in the comic isn't that central. At least, it currently isn't.

There was a time when the character was heavily over-focused on, hogging storyline attention and even getting her own spinoff miniseries. (A character who wasn't even from the games getting her own derivative work before the great Eggman? For shame!)

But recently? She's "just another one of those SatAM characters that the comics happen to still be using", the way I see it. She tags along and helps out, but for the life of me, I can't remember any recent major plot focus that dealt with Sally as a character. Sonic Universe and its alternate future story notwithstanding, anyway.

There are many other characters who are more influential and critical to the plot than she is, and whether you're a fan, a detractor, or just indifferent to her like me, I think it's important to remember that her focus has dropped a great deal over time.

Me? I see the drop in focus as good, since it gives more room for the aspects of the comic I care about- Sonic vs. Eggman, the original stars of the game series. But I wouldn't want her and her cartoon cohorts written out altogether- They appeal to many fans, and while it's wise to not overuse them, getting rid of them altogether could be jarring to say the least.

[Miko]

The book even says Tails is like the brother figure and Sonic calls him on ocassion the best friend. Of course we shouldn't like it, because she contorts the story. That's like me getting into the comic and writing a Mary Sue who ruins Sonic's relationships with everyone else and say "OMG IF U DON'T LIKE IT DEN STOP READING"

Improvements to the comic are obviously not made by simply leaving. Tell that to 50%+ people who HATED this character to high heaven and the not so ironic plummet in sales.

[Flyboy Fox]

Well, nowadays I'd think the current "targetted age" would expect Amy's prevalence over Sally's.

Why? Amy's never been central to the comics.

My problem with Sally is that she's supposed to call Sonic out on these flaws, but as the plot demands, she isn't called out on it. That's my biggest problem with Sally. It's not the fact WE can't see the flaws, that makes it annoying. It's the fact that the characters a written to just ignore it or laugh it off as banter and not really call her out on it. It doesn't really feel like a real flaw.

I disagree. Sonic's relationship with her has suffered greatly and openly because of her flaws.

1. I think you are mistaken. People AREN'T reading Archie, and most fans DON'T like Sally, and it's hurting the book. I think the writer needs to get over the fact that most people don't want her as the second most central character in the comic.

I think you're pulling stats out of your ass. Unless you can show me proof that most people reading the comics actively dislike Sally, I won't believe it. She may not be the most popular character, but as far as I can see, she's as well-liked as any other of the main cast.

2. This is a bit more minor because Archie is more story-based compared to the games, but Archie comics is supposed to help sell the games by offering them more exposure in another media of entertainment. There is a huge problem when she contorts the story to make it so she's the most important in Sonic's life. Even in SatAM, this was a problem, but it is even moreso now, since there was no storyline in the genesis handheld games. Now it's even more clear that its supposed to be Sonic and Tails, not Sonic and Sally. Archie needs to do a better job at facilitating this, much like they need to do with handling Knuckles in the book.

The comics audience and the games audience really aren't that intertwined. The comic has many fans independent of the games and is seen by most as a completely different entity from the games. They're hardly reliant on each other.

[Viuely]

Although I am- as I've established- largely indifferent to the character, I've noticed that her prevalence in the comic isn't that central. At least, it currently isn't.

Here's the deal on that. Sally is the most important supporting character as indicated by the fact he confides in her and she's his ideal foil, hence the second most important character sans Sonic. Sometimes she doesn't even need stories that really involve Sonic. Most of the stories that DO focus on something other than Sally (i.e the manfight Mogul/Eggman/Suppression, etc. stories that don't change the status quo of the book) are largely filler to the book.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[Miko]

I think you're pulling stats out of your ass. Unless you can show me proof that most people reading the comics actively dislike Sally, I won't believe it. She may not be the most popular character, but as far as I can see, she's as well-liked as any other of the main cast.

Again we know they disliked her (when the fanbase was bigger anyway) because Penders had said at least 50% of the fanbase wanted her dead by Endgame and the decline in comic sales has been posted multiple times in the Archie topic and you can find the figures IN the book. The last one printed was 196.

[Viuely]

Why? Amy's never been central to the comics.

Because she's the lead female of the franchise, not Sally. That's like trying make Peach #2 to Pauline.

I disagree. Sonic's relationship with her has suffered greatly and openly because of her flaws.

You need to back up what you're saying with actual references to the book.

The comics audience and the games audience really aren't that intertwined. The comic has many fans independent of the games and is seen by most as a completely different entity from the games. They're hardly reliant on each other.

Which is why the comic is going to more aims to appeal to the game's fans because the comic's fanbase is rapidly declining. Not dealin with the other stuff cause Miko will touch on it anyway.

[Dr. Mechano]

Most of the stories that DO focus on something other than Sally (i.e the manfight Mogul/Eggman/Suppression, etc. stories that don't change the status quo of the book) are largely filler to the book.

Maybe you perceive Eggman (and other villains I suppose) stories as filler. But to me, these are stories where the character shines and gets to showboat around, while simultaneously shaking things up for Sonic, his friends, and often the planet at large. But I won't go on a tangent about why I think Eggman's a very central character to the comic, not here.

Sally is the most important supporting character as indicated by the fact he confides in her and she's his ideal foil, hence the second most important character sans Sonic.

This makes no sense.

All you've said is "Sally is presented as Sonic's romantic interest in the comic, and Sonic pays lots of attention to her because of this."

Who Sonic as a character pays attention to is not necessarily representative of what the comic itself focuses on the most. So what if Archie's version of Sonic holds the character in very high regard? In the end, Sally herself still isn't focused on in the comic's plot all that much, honestly. She's still just another one of Sonic's band of helpers, and the plots themselves ultimately focus more on Sonic and Eggman(Or other antagonists at times, but Eggman most prominently among them). Call it "filler" if you want(And I'd disagree strongly), but these days, "Sonic versus somebody" takes up far more of the comic's bulk than Sally does, interacting with Sonic or otherwise.

[Flyboy Fox]

Again we know they disliked her (when the fanbase was bigger anyway) because Penders had said at least 50% of the fanbase wanted her dead by Endgame and the decline in comic sales has been posted multiple times in the Archie topic and you can find the figures IN the book. The last one printed was 196.

I don't suppose you've noticed, then, that the economy is in a recession and that pretty much ALL comic sales are down? I highly doubt it has anything to do with Sally.

Because she's the lead female of the franchise, not Sally. That's like trying make Peach #2 to Pauline.

Archie Sonic =/= Game Sonic. Just because Amy is the lead female in the games does not mean she needs to be the lead female in the comics. One of the things I love about the comics is the different cast.

You need to back up what you're saying with actual references to the book.

Did you miss their many break-ups? Including the huge one where Sally was a total bitch and slapped Sonic and several characters openly stated she was being unfair?

Which is why the comic is going to more aims to appeal to the game's fans because the comic's fanbase is rapidly declining. Not dealin with the other stuff cause Miko will touch on it anyway.

I don't think the fanbase is declining anymore rapidly than any other comic book, which are all suffering due to the economy.

[Miko]

I don't suppose you've noticed, then, that the economy is in a recession and that pretty much ALL comic sales are down? I highly doubt it has anything to do with Sally.

The decline happened before that.

[Flyboy Fox]

The decline happened before that.

I still don't think it's any greater than most comics, MANY of which have suffered over time. Proof it has anything to do with Sally? Sally has a huge fanbase. Plus, she's been there from the beginning. There's nothing at all to prove that she has anything to do with any slump in sales.

[Viuely]

Maybe you perceive Eggman (and other villains I suppose) stories as filler.

1) There are no significant impacts/changes that the characters endure due to these stories

2) The status quo doesn't really become significantly impacted by them either. Everything goes back to normal in a couple issues or less.

But to me, these are stories where the character shines and gets to showboat around, while simultaneously shaking things up for Sonic, his friends, and often the planet at large. But I won't go on a tangent about why I think Eggman's a very central character to the comic, not here.

"shaking up things" is filler in this book because it's simply a means to an end in an action comic book such as this where we know Sonic's going to win anyway. In filler, characters can get their time to shine as well. Just look at the powerpuff girls with the villain of the day mythos. Just because Ian showboats a villain around, doesn't mean that their time to shine isn't filler to the storyline.

Who Sonic as a character pays attention to is not necessarily representative of what the comic itself focuses on the most.

But Sonic is supposed to BE the story.

So what if Archie's version of Sonic holds the character in very high regard?

It's not the fact that Archie's version of Sonic holds Sally in a very high regard thats the problem.

In the end, Sally herself still isn't focused on in the comic's plot all that much, honestly.

Because the "plot" tends to be filler anyway. It is a side attraction, so what if Sally isn't focused incredibly within it? Although within the story itself, she does get plenty of focus despite the fact the villain of the day complex IS indeed filler. Ohhh Sally comming back to the freedom fighters after Ian pulling a plothole out his ass, Sally and her royal drama with the council, Sally reconciling with Sonic immediately after Fiona's abruptly *nudgewink* shoved on Scourge....blah blah blah.

She's still just another one of Sonic's band of helpers, and the plots themselves ultimately focus more on Sonic and Eggman(Or other antagonists at times, but Eggman most prominently among them). Call it "filler" if you want(And I'd disagree strongly), but these days, "Sonic versus somebody" takes up far more of the comic's bulk than Sally does, interacting with Sonic or otherwise.

But the meaningful, pivitoal, non filler interaction with Sonic that actually moves the story in a non filler sense tends to almost always be Sally more so than Eggman.

I still don't think it's any greater than most comics, MANY of which have suffered over time. Proof it has anything to do with Sally? Sally has a huge fanbase. Plus, she's been there from the beginning. There's nothing at all to prove that she has anything to do with any slump in sales.

But the sales were improving before Ian came and brought her back. And to ignore the fact that a minimum of 50% of the fanbase wanted Sally dead by ENDGAME at this point is being incredibly delusional that people wouldn't want her gone even moreso now, especially since the game storyline is more dominant, and that Sonic Adventure has been out for 10 years now.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[Meow]

I don't really care if she is around or not. Personally though I kind of like her as a character. I like the interaction between her and Sonic, though at one point it got a little overbearing and I lost interest in the comics for a while since every second issue seemed to be about someone x someone xD;. I'm so glad most of that was pushed away.

Either way, I've always liked the Freedom Fighters, Sally included. Can't really give a whole lot of reasons as to why, but one of them I think is that during the classic-era I guess it was kind of neat to see Sonic not working solo (or in a small group). Of course they are almost redundant now that the cast of video game characters has grown so much, but during that time really there was like...Knuckles and Tails to help him (Knuckles even being his enemy at a point).

So no, I don't think Sally should have been gone/killed off. I understand there are people that hate her, not going to try and argue against that fact. Just in my humble opinion, I think she is an alright character.

[Miko]

It's not the fact that Archie's version of Sonic holds Sally in a very high regard thats the problem.

Not inherently anyway

Sally has a huge fanbase.

New aged fans don't give a hell about her and want Amy. and at least half the fanbase hated her enough to want her dead. I'm sure there are those who may have had weaker degrees of hatred for this character. But the bigger fanbase lies in getting rid of her.

Plus, she's been there from the beginning.

A Sue that's been around from the get go is still a Sue.

Did you miss their many break-ups?

They only broke up once because they were only together once for 10 issues.

Including the huge one where Sally was a total bitch and slapped Sonic and several characters openly stated she was being unfair?

Ah yes, psycho Sally. A girl who goes completly deranged because she just can't live without Sonic despite the fact she only "loves" Sonic as an icon anyway. Oh and which "several" characters said she was being unfair?

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[Flyboy Fox]

But the sales were improving before Ian came and brought her back.

If it were that simple and obvious, they would have noticed and removed her permanently. They makes comics for money, you know. They're not gonna shoot themselves in the foot if all evidence points to a problem with a character causing sales decline.

I believe that far more people would leave the comic if she were removed.

[Viuely]

If it were that simple and obvious, they would have noticed and removed her permanently. They makes comics for money, you know. They're not gonna shoot themselves in the foot if all evidence points to a problem with a character causing sales decline.

I believe that far more people would leave the comic if she were removed.

You act that just because people act about buisness that they always make smart marketting moves, or that fans who run the book might not have their own agenda regardless of what sales indicate. And....removed? That's why the comic was in an upswing because she was removed due to her royal position.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[Flyboy Fox]

You act that just because people act about buisness that they always make smart marketting moves, or that fans who run the book might not have their own agenda regardless of what sales indicate.

No, I act like if something is as bleedingly obvious as you seem to think it is, they would have picked up on it and acted on it.

I can't find any evidence anywhere that Sally is a particularly unpopular character at this time and that there is any mass cry to have her removed.

She just doesn't seem unpopular to me. And she'd have to be VERY unpopular to be affecting sales the way you say she is.

[Viuely]

No, I act like if something is as bleedingly obvious as you seem to think it is, they would have picked up on it and acted on it.

1) Address my second point. Fans who have their own personal interests in the book aren't going to care to act on it regardless. The fans that run the book have also had a habit of lying to the editor to convince them to do things in their favor as was the case with love and loss

2) Despite how obvious it is to me, even if point one was incorrect, that doesnt mean that everyone catches on at the same pace. And also since, Pellirito hasn't overseen everything that Gabrie did, when they were originally going to get rid of Sally and pair Sonic with Amy just before practically ENTIRE management changed. Pellirito hasn't been around to see how Sally was disliked even during Endgame, or anything of that nature. And I sure as hell don't think Ian or any of the other fans working at Archie---even if they were aware of this would actually tell him.

I can't find any evidence anywhere that Sally is a particularly unpopular character at this time and that there is any mass cry to have her removed.

Uhh the fact that at least 50% wanted her dead by endgame? The fact most of Sonic's fans are game fans who hate Sally? The fact that in every other media Sonic's franchise love interest is some other girl which the targetted fanbase has been exposed to for 10-11 years?

EDIT: Allow be to broaden this with a little bit more perspective. Ian has a habit of making filler villain of the day stories that aren't really going to captivate readers. So what is left is essentially the interaction with the other characters that moves the actual story along. However Sally is the forefront character for this. If over 50% of the comic readers don't like Sally, it's going to hurt sales because she's the primary source of interaction that moves the story because she's the secondary character of the book.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[-Mark-]

I first saw SatAM back when it aired on Channel 4 originally here, and loved it. I was seven or eight at the time. After Sonic the Comic ended here in the UK, I decided to go for the Archie Sonic comic, and started importing that- I was around 15 or 16, then. The comic was... decidedly less impressive than SatAM, and I started to dismiss my fond memories or SatAM down to childhood nostalgia.

After four years of putting up with it, I decided to stop reading it, especially since the Sonic X comic was already around at that point. Since I was a bit strapped for cash at that time (just before getting my job) so decided to stop getting both comics and just get Sonic X.

Shortly after that, I got the AoStH and SatAM DVD box sets, and realised that SatAM actually was as good as I remembered it- and that the Archie comics had just evolved into something of a warped misinterpretation of it, as opposed to the 'continuation' that they were originally supposed to be (and probably were, originally). If you look at Sally's personality in SatAM and what it is in the comics (at least when I was still reading it, my last issue was 164), she barely seems like the same person. Comic Sally is an exaggerated-to-the-extreme version of her SatAM self who's practically in perma-bitch mode.

I wasn't reading the comic around the time they were actually considering killing her off, so I can't judge to say whether it would have been good or not, but I do think that Sally at the very least needed to be written better in the comics, at least during the four years I was reading them.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Mahzes