Do you think Sally should have been/should be killed off?

[Miko]

Show me, statistically, with evidence, PROOF that the MAJORITY of fans hate Sally. Don't show me proof that she has people who hate her. Show me proof that the statistical majority hate her.

Ok lets ignore the games for a second and evaluate people who saw potential in the comic as it's own separate entity because that seems like the tangent you yourself are on moreso than Ian's, which is fine. I think people were just arguing it because that's his direction. To you it's a moot point because the comic should be seeking an identity from the games. Fine.

1. We know a MUCH larger fanbase for the comics had been around by 50. We know that of the would be fanbase that most people didn't like this character. Even if every person still reading this book liked that character presently, it still would still pale in comparison to the numbers of people who hated her by 50 enough to want her dead. Not only that but SALLY ACORN gets sidelined and sales improve in recent years in spite of how signifficant a character she is to Sonic's life. You yourself were even surprised by this a little were you not?

Exact figures can be found here:

http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bauerle/circ.htm

2. Let's just discuss the storytelling component. The objective when writing it for an audience is to entertain after all. What reason should I have to think this character would be redeeming? Her allure stems from a phase in women's feminism that's almost 20 years too oudated. You have a character who essentially has no need for Sonic and is essentially a refined fangirl being portrayed around Sonic as if she'd met her friggin' soulmate. She interferes with Sonic's ability to connect with everyone else even those he says mean a lot to him, Her personality is shaped as the plot demands. And anything that does ride her the wrong way is rectified by plotholes. There's no sense of "get over it, the story would sound stupid if you did that" with the comic.

When she does wrong she is rarely if ever put in her place and the times she is is usually just for show. She can get dragged to the council over Freedom HQ but nobody gives a damn that she left the enemy (under Ian's plothole filled mythos) that took their homes, made robots out of their families, caused them pain and suffering and robbed them of their childhoods and could if free do the same again. All that, and WITHOUT the council's permission despite even saying she'd contact them about it. Do you know what people call this? A Sue. It's not something most people like in writing like at all. As leader she would be fully responsible for the actions as team leader and therefore responsible for a crapload of problems concerning Eggman for years to come. she ultimately gave the command to leave Eggman and to of all things listen to a traitor that tried to kill him"because he'll be safetly locked away here". Will anyone kick her ass over this monumental brain fart (made because Ian wants an IQ story arc)? No. Even now, the villagers are cheering in the streets and are not ready to kill her for deciding to leave him there. What're the odds when he comes back anyone will want to sock her in the face?

P.S Do you agree with Sally being in the games. One of the reasons I don't want to see her anymore is because I'd really like the issue concerning that to die and never come back as well.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[redmenace]

I'm not the one in the position where I need to. If someone is saying the comics are failing in big part due to Sally being hated by the majority, it is up to that person to back that claim or it cannot be taken seriously. I haven't proposed an alternative relying on Sally being more popular, therefore I do not need to give you 'proof' of anything. The person making the argument needs to.

Show me, statistically, with evidence, PROOF that the MAJORITY of fans hate Sally. Don't show me proof that she has people who hate her. Show me proof that the statistical majority hate her.

Edit: Also, internet Sonic fandom =/= entire Sonic fandom. I would imagine there are plenty of people who read the comics but have no particular interest in posting about 'em online.

Logic doesn't work that way my friend. I can't prove it exists but you can't prove it doesn't exist that way either.

You want proof? That 50% when the comic was popular (ie larger fanbase than now) isn't enough? Oh it was then now it's now. Right. Then why are we trying to cattter at the old crowd that saw Endgame again?

So internet was proof when people mention the outcry of Sally ending up edead in Engame but now it's not proof because... because well, they're not the majority of the fanbase.

[Flyboy Fox]

Ok lets ignore the games for a second and evaluate people who saw potential in the comic as it's own separate entity because that seems like the tangent you yourself are on moreso than Ian's, which is fine. I think people were just arguing it because that's his direction.

1. We know a MUCH larger fanbase for the comics had been around by 50. We know that of the would be fanbase that most people didn't like this character. Even if every person still reading this book liked that character presently, it still would still pale in comparison to the numbers of people who hated her by 50 enough to want her dead. Not only that but SALLY ACORN gets sidelined and sales improve in recent years.

From what I recall of other comics, including superhero comics, rise and decline happens a lot. Actually, comic books on the whole have been on the general decline for a long time.

Exact figures can be found here:

http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bauerle/circ.htm

Decline in the past two/three years... fits exactly with the pattern happening with all comics.

2. Let's just discuss the storytelling component. The objective when writing it for an audience is to entertain after all. What reason should I have to think this character would be redeeming? Her allure stems from a phase in women's feminism that's almost 20 years too oudated.

I find it appealing and know plenty of others who find it appealing. I can't stand characters who follow modern trends rather than staying true to their original intent.

You have a character who essentially has no need for Sonic and is essentially a refined fangirl being portrayed around Sonic as if she'd met her friggin' soulmate. She interferes with Sonic's ability to connect with everyone else even those he says mean a lot to him, Her personality is shaped as the plot demands. And anything that does ride her the wrong way is rectified by plotholes. There's no sense of "get over it, the story would sound stupid if you did that" with the comic.

I don't see how she is a 'fangirl'. That doesn't seem to fit her at all. Sonic seems to actually have a meaningful connection with her.

I don't deny that she's gotten in the way of other characters, but that's because of how she's been overused in some cases, not inherently because she exists. There have been arcs where Sonic's connected with other characters, so it can happen, even with Sally not dead.

When she does wrong she is rarely if ever put in her place and the times she is is usually just for show.

Bull. Sally has often suffered for her actions, especially in her painful break-up with Sonic.

She can get dragged to the council over Freedom HQ but nobody gives a damn that she left the enemy (under Ian's plothole filled mythos) that took their homes, made robots out of their families, caused them pain and suffering and robbed them of their childhoods and could if free do the same again, and WITHOUT the council's permission despite even saying she'd contact them about it.

This is because writers are inconsistant, not because Sally gets specially treatment. The same has happened with Sonic himself. Sometimes he is called out, arrested even, and sometimes he pretty much gets away with murder. The double standards affect everyone. Even the hero himself.

Do you know what people call this? A Sue. It's not something most people like in writing at all.

I don't see her as a Sue at all. She has no special powers and she's openly flawed. She could stand to step back a little sometimes, but she is not inherently a bad character or a Sue.

P.S Do you agree with Sally being in the games. One of the reasons I don't want to see her anymore is because I'd really like the issue concerning that to die and never come back as well.

No. I think Sally is fine where she is. There's no need to put her in the games. There's plenty of Sonic media for Sally-haters to choose from. But I will kick up a mighty fuss if anyone tries to remove her from the only place she exists, because I love her!

[Miko]

Decline in the past two/three years... fits exactly with the pattern happening with all comics.

06 was not a recession and that was the largest drop period.

I don't see how she is a 'fangirl'. That doesn't seem to fit her at all. Sonic seems to actually have a meaningful connection with her.

As the foil to his personality (and when I say this I mean his flaws), this isn't surprising. But she has no real connection with him. To her he's just an icon for for freedom.

I don't deny that she's gotten in the way of other characters, but that's because of how she's been overused in some cases, not inherently because she exists.

She's overused because she's designed to be the foil for Sonic's character. As long as she exists, he has no reason to see highly signifficant the personalities of his other comrades.

Bull. Sally has often suffered for her actions, especially in her painful break-up with Sonic.

Out of personal guilt and butthurt over a love for Sonic she doesn't have perhaps. But I'm talking about OTHER people's characterization being warped to let her get away with stuff they shouldn't be letting her get away with. It's ok to let Sally in 197 face the council because she won't get in a lot of poo poo for it. Try pulling that stunt again after what happens with Eggman. The ONLY way I could see it not happening at this point is Ian writing it as a NO U to those who find this stupid, which is fine and hopefully he'll do it. If he can have the self control to put her back in the kitchen when need be, I'll have new faith in Sally not needing to be killed off.

This is because writers are inconsistant, not because Sally gets specially treatment.

Again when Amy is immature people are actually upset by her. Sally may have suffered but she wasn't put in her place so to speak. The fangirls weren't ready to beat the hell out of her for publicly humiliating Sonic. Amy wasn't bothered with Sally despite being the BIGGEST Sonic fan of them all. So, I don't think

The same has happened with Sonic himself. Sometimes he is called out, arrested even, and sometimes he pretty much gets away with murder. The double standards affect everyone. Even the hero himself.

Sources plox.

I don't see her as a Sue at all. She has no special powers and she's openly flawed.

Some Sues don't have special powers. Anti Sues are a trope for example of mundane characters without any special qualities that everyone just seems to love for no explained reason. As for her flaws, most of this crap is as the story demands. She doesn't harbor a very serious love for Sonic but she's going...pardon my french but apeshit when he returns.

There's plenty of Sonic media for Sally-haters to choose from.

If they'd put Mina in another universe, I'd be very inclined to consider that. It sucks for those of us who see potential in some of the Archie exclusive characters

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[Flyboy Fox]

Report? And go behind the person's backs? Who do you think I am? When I pointed out I didn't like his reply, it's because I didn't like it and pointed the injustice of it, not because I'm a mod wannabee. And yes I answered it because I dislike when people try to shut up others just because they don't agree with their opinions and they're in a position of power. What are you going to do next? Close the topic or something? Ignore this then, if answering the posts directed to you if you is not important and you don't want to derail the topic any further. Why did you answer it then in the first place then? Oh logics.

The report feature is there for the very reason of preventing off-topic-ness and allowing Mods to deal with situations. In future please use it.

And if a Mod asks you to not continue the argument in the thread, such as Pelly did, please respect that. If you continue to have a problem with a Mod decision, contact that Mod or an Admin OUTSIDE of the thread, via PM.

That goes for everyone.

[Viuely]

Edit: Also, internet Sonic fandom =/= entire Sonic fandom. I would imagine there are plenty of people who read the comics but have no particular interest in posting about 'em online.

o.O I thought we were talking about the game fandom....*shrugs* But I'm confused, if the internet fandom didnt make a worthy applicant pool why did you think it was ok to base the lack of outcry against Sally's being kept alive on the internet fandom? I'd agree it wouldn't be sound judgement to use any statistics from back then. But I'm under the assumption you'd think they'd be sound enough to apply now prior to my mentioning.

I find it appealing and know plenty of others who find it appealing. I can't stand characters who follow modern trends rather than staying true to their original intent.

The problem with Sally is that unlike her, there are plenty of characterizations that don't have a shelf life. Sally's motif went out of flavor due to the criticisms that came with 3rd wave feminism, and it's execution. That said, I'm not trying to harp on the tastes of you and some individuals. I'm just making a point that the public at large has moved on from this motif and therefore most people probably would not appreciate it otherwise it would still be around.

This is because writers are inconsistant, not because Sally gets specially treatment.

No this is author bias, as there's only one writer of the book right now, and not only that he's been keeping up with the book for years prior to getting hired. There's no excuse.

EDIT: Hi Adamis

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[Future]

I like Sally, but sometimes she can be really annoying. It seems sometimes she wants to be the center of attention. I don't like the direction they are taking her in the comics. Sally shouldn't of died off, they just need to work a bit more on her personallity.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I like all of Sonic's "closest friend" characters for different reasons.

Tails has the whole Batman and Robin partnership going, the whole "mentor and pupil friendship" thing.

Amy has the whole Sailor Moon "fated lovers" thing going, what with her tarot cards, uncanny ability to find Sonic wherever he goes, and her seemingly unstoppable determination.

Sally is like a mother to Sonic while at the same time being his girlfriend.

Mina is the average girl who is drawn to Sonic's superhero lifestyle.

I don't have to pick one love interest. Because this is fiction, I can pick whichever is most convenient for me given my emotional wants at any given time, and just acknowledge each pairing as an alternate universe.

[Picchi]

I don't see her as a Sue at all. She has no special powers and she's openly flawed.

I think its a common misconception that Mary-sues NEED to have superpowers or have to be purity sues to be labeled as one. They don't. Tsundere/Jerkass Sues are an infamously flawed trope of Mary-sue that DO have flaws--its just that there's little consequence for having them. No one implies that the way she acts is wrong, when something in Sally's character triggers something bad to happen, the characters don't do anything in terms of reprimanding her. The slap is a great example. She got no flack from anyone, not even Amy or the rest of Sonic's fans for what she did to him. And Sally's online fandom only reinforced her Suedom. Despite all evidence from prior stories that would've implied her actions in that story were in character (Ex: mentioned in earlier issues that Sally acted impulsively during moments of extreme stress and she acted similarly to Knuckles as well when she thought he was keeping secrets from her), the moment Sally does something "wrong" that fans can call her out on, she's being "out of character", its not "supposed to be how Sally's portrayed". This implies that people expect Sally to be some near if not entirely perfectionated character with at best minimal shortcomings that have little to no consequence. At this point Sally isn't even a character in the sense she has a personality anymore. If her characterization isn't being constantly warped to fit what the plot demands, its shifting itself to fit the expected image of her archetype.

So to warp this up, Sally just comes off as a conglomeration of old ideals, an archetype if you will; and its debatable for me to even consider the girl much of a character in the sense she has a personality of her own. Its not the only reason I could see people calling her sueish, but this kind of character potrayl is very typical in Mary-sue writing and I could honestly see it as at least one of the reasons people dislike her. I don't think its even "just" a matter of Sally being a pro 1990's feminist character, either (although I do agree that its outtdated in appeal). Sally doesn't really have much to call her own outside of that since she's warped around so much.

Sally shouldn't of died off, they just need to work a bit more on her personallity

How is she going to be worked on when the people who're left, including the writer, like/expect her being portrayed this way?

Edited July 23, 2009 by Picchi

[Badnik Mechanic]

"Oh no!" Cried the onlooker. There was a Casanova, and he had an opinion!

Which Sally are we talking about? Theres been lots of Sally, there was a SatAM Sally, there was/is an Archie Sally, and there was at one point a Fleetway Sally... but she wasn't into hardcore so they never used her again.

Fleetway: One of the most poinltess characters in the entire series, she just cried, then got happy... and then was never seen again! Except for the odd random cameo.

SatAM: She wasn't that bad at first... and then as the series continued you suddenly realised... Oh... no Amy Rose... and... Oh... why is she the leader? and... Oh... why is everything about her in the end? She became too much more important than Sonic at one point, if you're a boi and your childhood hero is Sonic, you don't want a squirell getting the spotlight... even if she is close to being naked all the time... well if you're that way inclined.

Archie: Dargh? No matter how hard I try, no matter what I do... I can never get into archie and I can never follow any plotlines... it's like racing chickens... they don't know whats going on! All I know is that one day I'll come online find a news post saying archie comics slipped into the KFC farm and died.

The key thing about the archie and the SatAM ones that just irritated me no end, was that despite it being "Sonics TV Show, or Sonics comic" more often than not... Sally seemed to be more important and have such a wider degree of focus than some of the primary sega sonic characters, and at times this included Sonic! Noooo... thats no good.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Archie: Dargh? No matter how hard I try, no matter what I do... I can never get into archie and I can never follow any plotlines... it's like racing chickens... they don't know whats going on!

I wouldn't blame you, the comic has changed drastically over the years, due to editors and writers changing many times.

Consistency has almost never been its strong point.

[Miko]

Despite all evidence from prior stories that would've implied her actions in that story were in character (Ex: mentioned in earlier issues that Sally acted impulsively during moments of extreme stress and she acted similarly to Knuckles as well when she thought he was keeping secrets from her), the moment Sally does something "wrong" that fans can call her out on, she's being "out of character", its not "supposed to be how Sally's portrayed".

When it came to the slap there wasn't enough to support it'd happen. I notice how Amy wasn't at all psychopathic about Sonic leaving and for both of them Sonic is an icon for freedom. You'd think as such neither would really mind him fighting on the feild considering neither of them have feelings for him that are all that serious for them to stress over him anymore than the average fan stresses over MJ's death. Maybe under times of extreme stress we'd see a much more flawed character but under normal circumstances, she's built to counteract Sonic's flaws. She counteracts his impulsiveness and not thinking is practically a given for doing something very flawed. This is why people have an impression of her that says "flawless Sue" because under normal circumstances, this seems to be the kind of thing she's designed to do.

How is she going to be worked on when the people who're left, including the writer, like/expect her being portrayed this way?

I think the better question what's to be worked on when those who like her enjoy her the way she is? And trying to change the larger reasons she's disliked will change who the character is.

Mina is the average girl who is drawn to Sonic's superhero lifestyle.

Actually I'd kind of think Amy fits more in that category. Mina didn't like Sonic for his lifestyle. The story made it very clear she disliked him until she saw better aspects of his character. If she liked him for that reason she would've been interested in him the moment she appeared.

Tails has the whole Batman and Robin partnership going, the whole "mentor and pupil friendship" thing.

Tails is just a prop in Sonic's act in the comics and is worth even less in SatAM. Sonic doesn't depend on his character because Sally's there. I don't have a problem with characters being mentors and pupil's but the way it's executed, it'd infer Sonic is the only character who offers anything to the relationship. The best pupils are those that can teach their mentors.

[Gabz Girl]

Sally is...an ok character, I guess. I dont know what to think of her really. She's cool and brave in the earlier issues of Archie, and now she's alright, but during the 100 issues she was SUCH A BITCH. Remember that time she slapped Sonic for no reason? Yeah, I'll never forgive her for that. Never. =/ I also didn't like her look during that time either. She always looked so tall and curvy and...well, slutty. I'm pleased they changed it later on.

Also, I don't mind her nakedness that much (we need more naked official female characters actually~). It only bothered me really when she had the womanly look. That was gross. T-T

Do you know what people call this? A Sue. It's not something most people like in writing at all.

Sally is most certainly not a Sue. Lara-Su is! =P

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm not sure if this is what really happened, but from what I've heard, Ken Penders and Karl Bollers were not getting along very well when the comic was in the 130s. Supposedly the "Home" arc(In which Sally grows vampire fangs and slaps Sonic) was Bollers' attempt to sabotage everything Penders wanted to happen to Sonic in the book, while "Return to Angel Island" was his attempt to tear down Penders' Knuckles continuity.

[Gabz Girl]

while "Return to Angel Island" was his attempt to tear down Penders' Knuckles continuity.

That's ironic, because I really liked that arc. XD Except for Kneecaps though...where is Kneecaps anyway? o.O

And I forgot to answer the initial question of this topic! No, Sally shouldn't have been killed off, but bringing her back from the dead wasn't very clever either. I'm neutral. =)

[Kiljoy]

I like Sally and think a lot of the hate is overrated, I personally don't believe that half of the reader base wanted her dead, just the ones motivated enough to make a fuss about it. I also don't see her as a Mary sue, she seems like a perfectly fine character.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Except for Kneecaps though...where is Kneecaps anyway? o.O

Good question.O_o

Maybe we'll find out where Knuckles' brother is during the upcoming Knuckles centric Universe arc.

[Miko]

I personally don't believe that half of the reader base wanted her dead, just the ones motivated enough to make a fuss about it.

which was at least half the readerbase. And frankly, Sally's fans had more reason to make a fuss because they really liked the character and she's never have the same place to the story again. So the figures for those who wanted her dead or hated her to slightly lesser degrees are if anything, probably even higher.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[Kiljoy]

I don't follow your logic, you have no evidence that AT LEAST half the reader base is willing to write a letter, and all of them hate Sally. That's quite a stretch. Your also saying Sally fans have more motivation, but the fact is people get more motivated out things they hate, I think most of those people who like Sally may get mad about her taking a back seat, but don't care enough to write a letter. Now if they tried to kill her off, the fans might try and write letters, or even participate in a website to get her back.. hmmmm.

My point is it really doesn't take that many angry letters to catch someone's attention, I think it's very foolish to think half the user base hates Sally that much. I don't even think half the user base is willing to write a letter in the first place.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Maybe the key to Sally's popularity is her vest. Perhaps anyone who acquires said vest will become Sonic's true love.

Obviously, that person will be Rotor. What else do you think he does in his vast amounts of spare time?

[Miko]

I don't follow your logic, you have no evidence that AT LEAST half the reader base is willing to write a letter, and all of them hate Sally.

Ken had said retrospectively that half the readerbase by 50 (actually he said at least half) did in an interview. Bear in mind the fandom's numbers peaked at 50 so the most fans to take into account would've been at that point. Did every last fan write a letter? Probably not, but he had enough of a sample to work with. This is like saying scientific surveys for example that you may rely on in everday life have no validity because they didn't survey EVERYONE. This logic is of course ridiculous. Usually a pool 100 minimum is sufficient and 1000-10,000 is incredibly good in a scientific study, So I'd see no problem with applying such standards to this.

My point is it really doesn't take that many angry letters to catch someone's attention

If that's the case then Ken would have saved her on behalf of the fans (which he didn't). After all, Sally fans would be the ones at around endgame to send all those angry letters in response to what Ken did.

Your also saying Sally fans have more motivation,

At this point in time, yeah they did because their character wasn't simply being given a backseat, she was being killed off.

but the fact is people get more motivated out things they hate,

And Sally's fans wouldn't hate the idea of her being shoved in a palace. Especially a particular one who wrote a couple plotholes to bring her back.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

She always looked so tall and curvy and...well, slutty. I'm pleased they changed it later on.

Also, I don't mind her nakedness that much (we need more naked official female characters actually~). It only bothered me really when she had the womanly look. That was gross. T-T

...?

'Cuse the language, but...how and why in the blue hell does having a tall, curvy, womanly look equal to a character being "slutty"? I'm mean where does that come from?

I could understand if she was acting seductive (or if her curves were exaggerated more from how she is now), but simply on her looks? I mean what the hell?

Edited July 23, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Blazey Firekitty]

...?

'Cuse the language, but...how and why in the blue hell does having a tall, curvy, womanly look equal to a character being "slutty"? I'm mean where does that come from?

I could understand if she was acting seductive (or if her curves were exaggerated more from how she is now), but simply on her looks? I mean what the hell?

Sally...needs...bigger...muscles!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sally...needs...bigger...muscles!

...You trying to freak me the hell out man? I'd take her as a slut over that.

Also, wasn't there something against these "kill off" topics? And if half the reader fanbase wanted Sally dead in the first place...why make a topic on it if that was already the case? And what about the other half?

[Blazey Firekitty]

...You trying to freak me the hell out man? I'd take her as a slut over that.

Hee hee, no Hulk Squirrel, for you, got it.