Do you think Sally should have been/should be killed off?

[Gabz Girl]

...?

'Cuse the language, but...how and why in the blue hell does having a tall, curvy, womanly look equal to a character being "slutty"? I'm mean where does that come from?

I could understand if she was acting seductive (or if her curves were exaggerated more from how she is now), but simply on her looks? I mean what the hell?

She looked way too revealing. Her breasts...her waist...*covers eyes*

Ah, and BlazeyBakeneko summed it up well too. XD

[Flyboy Fox]

Agreed. She looked like an anime human woman... it was just very odd. I can see why her lack of clothes seemed awkward while her appearance was so... sexualised.

Also, this topic is getting a little stale. It's basically becoming pages and pages of ONE point - "Ken said more than 50% wanted Sally dead by #50" vs "Stats are flawed!". That's all I'm hearing.

Does anyone on either side have anything else to say?

[Blazey Firekitty]

I suppose the notion of killing off Sally, then having her come back as a ghost to help Sonic in a less direct way would have some potential, though I guess most people probably wouldn't go for that.

[Kiljoy]

I am not going to respond piece by piece, All I am going to say is my last point, the only point, to this whole thing. As I have said and repeated, the 50% statistic is unreliable, you agreed with me when you said most of the fanbase would be indifferent and too apathetic to even write a letter. So as far as this part of the discussion it's over, we've already agreed most of the fanbase probably doesn't care that much to write a letter either way. With that agreement we can say that those that did write letters do not fairly represent the fanbase.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Kiljoy

[Flyboy Fox]

*Points to my post above* Enough about the 50% thing. If that's all anyone can talk about, back and forth, then this topic might as well be closed. Anyone? I'll give it 'til tomorrow.

[Miko]

Well I'd much rather hear about people's thoughts to the impact Sally's character has to the franchise and people's thoughts on alternatives. I've for example thought downplaying her would be a viable comprimise but it puts a dent in things when writers come in and just throw her back in the ringer. Besides, I don't THINK she'd be totally removed from the story, or at least she doesn't have to be. I always sight the fact that Aerith died, but she always comes back ocassionally. But through her death, Cloud is sort of forced in a position where he needs to branch out more. So is death Reaaally that bad of a thing? I think it would permanently regulate her place to the story (or make it much harder to undo) because writers seem to have a penchant (if they really like her) to bring her back and crap hits the fan aaall over again.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Miko

[Picchi]

Mmm.. Princess Sally just doesn't come off to me as though she's the kind of character that belongs in the Sonic games, or even the franchise for that matter. So long as she's around, Sonic's ability to connect with his other friends is limited, and if you got rid of the parts of her character that defined her and her relationship to Sonic in order to rectify this, the pairing and traits that people identified with (as well as Sally's 'character') aren't really...identifyable anymore; and we all know Sally's fans have openly displayed this sort of concern over her in the comics.

The little fans that are still left of the book like Sally the way she's been previously potrayed, but its a hinderance to the overallstory and characters, and to try and change these problems would in turn change Sally, so whats the point in keeping her alive?

I think it might've been better for the series if Ken got away with killing her. At least that way she would've left on a better tangent, and who knows? Maybe heaven would have been in need of Freedom Fighters like her. It certainly would have given Sally a reason to still have her own stories and time with Sonic without having to do it at the consistant expense of the other characters.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Picchi

[Mau]

Y'know, as a straight woman, why is it that Sally being nude has never bothered me?

Personally I always thought it was a little unfair that the male characters ran around in the nude, and the females had to have clothes on.

But I disgress, Sally's choice in attire or lack thereof has nothing to do with my dislike of her, or perhaps my apathetic attitude toward her. It may just be her initial design being a little too "ordinary" as a woodland creature, after all, Sonic's blue, Knuckles is red, and Tails is the only one who's close to a normal animal color in the triple threat.

Then there's her initial attitude. But I do think it's her physical features and lack of useful abilities and attributes that make her a useless character. If she was the only child of King Acorn, perhaps, but Prince Elias has taken her place.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Mau

[Blazey Firekitty]

Y'know, as a straight woman, why is it that Sally being nude has never bothered me?

Heterosexuality fortunately doesn't have to mean that one has be repulsed by the body of one's own gender...But you sound like you already knew that, and I think that's pretty cool.

[Flyboy Fox]

Besides, it's not like she's showing anything

[Leon K Fox]

The thing is, if people dislike her that much, why read the comics at all? She was a key part to SatAM so therefore is in the comics, but it's only in the comic timeline so...yeah.

[Miko]

The thing is, if people dislike her that much, why read the comics at all?

Because, Sally and a few other annoying elements aside there's still a lot of potential for the series.

She was a key part to SatAM so therefore is in the comics

That doesn't mean SatAM wasn't in need of improvements and Archie's kind of phasing out of the SatAM elements it'd adapted.

[redmenace]

...?

'Cuse the language, but...how and why in the blue hell does having a tall, curvy, womanly look equal to a character being "slutty"? I'm mean where does that come from?

I could understand if she was acting seductive (or if her curves were exaggerated more from how she is now), but simply on her looks? I mean what the hell?

She was way more "curvy" than any other character, and the drawing people really exagerated when drawing sexy shots of her along with her hair blowing in the wind. Just go to deviantart, type sally acorn and see the results. It's obvious people that read the comic got the message as well.

It's not like the nudity bothers me. Julie-Su was naked waist down, that possum was also naked somewhat. But the way Sally was drawn overly sexualised her too much. That was the problem.

Again, I don't think she should die per se NOW (though back then, yes, damn you Sonic Mars and SEGA of America) but she needs to be shoved down a lot more and appear far less than she does. I was ecxtasic when Universe was announced. I thought it was the perfect excuse to start a new story rid of plotholes and original characters, and more concerned with the characters from the game. Instead, we get a Archie 2. Disappointment. I'd say it's going to fail flat on it's arse, as those mini-series and that knuckles series as well. It brings nothing new. A new approach to the Sonic Universe would though.

My point is Ken did not know what half the user base wanted, because half the user base, even including sally fans, would not be motivated to write letters.

Yes they would. Do not kill her off. I'll give you a good example. Asking for Ron Weasley not being killed off was the biggest ammount of fan letters Rowling got. She admited it so in an interview.

Actually, I'm someone who took statistic in university. There's nothing wrong with making this a sample, at all, it's not a contaminated one. They follow mathematic models, not a simple #possible/#available probability equation. You can have people that support vehemently and those who are against as well, and they both could write letters. The error that we could have (and yes, it is also calculated) would be too small as well.

And those letters are a excelent way to pool your fanbase. Why? Because people that actually write there are the ones more interested in the story and that will get pissed off if it not goes their way. The majority of the others who cannot be bothered to write will take either way.

And it's kind of redundant. Achie usually goes with what the fans like in the comic. So if they sent their letters telling they hated Sally, as they always did, they should've gone that route.

I am not going to respond piece by piece, All I am going to say is my last point, the only point, to this whole thing. As I have said and repeated, the 50% statistic is unreliable, you agreed with me when you said most of the fanbase would be indifferent and too apathetic to even write a letter. So as far as this part of the discussion it's over, we've already agreed most of the fanbase probably doesn't care that much to write a letter either way. With that agreement we can say that those that did write letters do not fairly represent the fanbase.

Don't speak about statistics when you clearly don't know anything about it. What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. It's like making a poll about a TV show and regarding a phone study wrong because not everyone who has a phone has a TV. It's not contaminated or biased. Asking in Manchester which team would win the next England championship is contamined and biased. Random letters, no, they aren't.

[AdventChild]

Heh, pretty ironic don't ya think?

Anti-Sally has more clothes on than original Sally when you think the Anti- would have been the opposite or wore something like a dominatrix (though that would be unfamily friendly).

Though as for Sally, I'm pretty neutral or pretty meh. She is brave, smart, and cool for the most part, and at least, she isn't in the games. However, she still rubs off as just a love interest for Sonic, part of the plot device, and be like a restriction for Sonic from doing something over the top or something "fun". Also, she can be a whiny b*tch at times, and the infamous Sonic slap heard around Mobius can lead for a turn down and bad reputation.

[Kiljoy]

Don't speak about statistics when you clearly don't know anything about it. What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. It's like making a poll about a TV show and regarding a phone study wrong because not everyone who has a phone has a TV. It's not contaminated or biased. Asking in Manchester which team would win the next England championship is contamined and biased. Random letters, no, they aren't.

Oh yeah I don't know statistics, forget my college class, forget it completely, I know nothing. The BIG difference in what you said is this, it's like MAKING A POLL. Now if Archie had asked the fans, then nevermind you would be right. Most of the fanbase doesn't care enough to write a letter, so saying half the fanbase doesn't like her is incorrect.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Kiljoy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just go to deviantart, type sally acorn and see the results. It's obvious people that read the comic got the message as well.

If you go to DA, or ANY other place that holds fan art, you're going to find just about EVERY female character to be sexualized.

The even have some sexy pictures of Cream the Rabbit (much older than the games, BTW). And then there's Amy, Blaze, Vanilla, Rouge, I could go on OUTSIDE the Sonic Franchise.

[Miko]

We've been asked to keep discussion about the sales figures to a minimum. I'd really like to direct you back to what I was saying but I can't tell whether this is deliberate or are we stuck on the same point because there is actually a failure to understand what's being said.

The BIG difference in what you said is this, it's like MAKING A POLL.

1. Archie had acted on fan demand before, so there was incentive for people to tell Archie what they liked. JUST as much as there was to complain. Maybe YOU wouldn't do so unless it was something that you didn't like but they've said to people countless times they NEED people to tell them what they like so they know what to KEEP DOING. Many people over the years, as their letters columns have indicated do respond to that calling and write letters talking about all the things they like. You're entire argument:"Well this poll couldn't POSSIBLY have an equal amount of people who like her because people only comment on things they hate" is based on nothing outside of your OWN personal way of thinking. In no way shape or form have you managed to produce any means of demonstrating that most people will and do think like you. If you want to make your way of thinking a world view for yourself personally, fine. But you have no grounds to throw that in a discussion that doesn't revolve around it. I hope I'm not sounding rude because I honestly have no intention of being so. I would just appreciate it if you provided some sort of foundation to your argument if you're going to continue it.

2. Redmenace said it was like making your typical poll. He didn't say it was the exact same thing. Though even if he'd meant that, there is little difference the comic book buyers know Archie is looking for their input on things that matter to them. Archie asks fans to write about what's important to them and they're free to send in as many letters as they want. There is PLENTY of incentive for people to demand a Sally miniseries, Sally stories, answers about Sally's life, Sonic and Sally getting together, etc. Just as much as an incentive for people to talk about what they don't like. People mailing letters know their opinions will help shape the direction of the story. They know their letters when added with the bulk of fan demand will shape the popularity of an idea, which in fact if popular enough will more than likely be considered for the book. People in short understand that Archie is essentially polling their ideas and asking for an open-ended questions. For a comic poll when the goal is to ask what people like and dislike, it'd be very foolish to make a typical poll with a few answers.

Most of the fanbase doesn't care enough to write a letter, so saying half the fanbase doesn't like her is incorrect.

Can you please just drop that already. ALL studies deal with people who consent to be part of it. All studies therefore have people with some motivation in doing it. Saying it's invalid because not everyone in the world would care enough to write a letter is like saying every ethical scientific study that needs consent and a motivation to participate is incorrect because it doesn't deal with everyone.

If you go to DA, or ANY other place that holds fan art, you're going to find just about EVERY female character to be sexualized.

The even have some sexy pictures of Cream the Rabbit (much older than the games, BTW). And then there's Amy, Blaze, Vanilla, Rouge, I could go on OUTSIDE the Sonic Franchise.

...6_6 Goodness Cream? Sickos... on DA every girl is sexualized. But I guess some people feel like she's too much considering she'd kinda kiss guys on the cheek in SatAM a lot and was the only girl who was naked. Even when Sonic expressed a sense of commitment to her being his girlfriend she kinda rebuffed him. Kinda odd how Sonic's unwillingness to settle down makes him a manwhore to a lot of Sally shippers but DONT U DARE CALL SALLY A SLUT!!11

It's a little different in Archie but a lot of people's perceptions stem from SatAM. And aaaall the people who say SatAM=Archyeee. People who argue that, call Sonic a manwhore only for it to get flicked back in their face with the Sally=whore argument get exactly what they deserve.

Anyone else a little put off by how Yardley draws her with that bald spot by her ears (the one around her forehead)? The anti Sally picture where he doesn't do that looks better. I think of the artist who weren't downright laughable, I'm liking his way of drawing Sally the least. I like how Spaz drew her face a little but...he kinda didn't draw her to look like a Sonic character.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Miko

[redmenace]

Oh yeah I don't know statistics, forget my college class, forget it completely, I know nothing. The BIG difference in what you said is this, it's like MAKING A POLL. Now if Archie had asked the fans, then nevermind you would be right. Most of the fanbase doesn't care enough to write a letter, so saying half the fanbase doesn't like her is incorrect.

Well, not trying to be insulting, but a small sample speaks for the whole population if you apply mathematic models, within a trust interval (don't know how it's called in english). This kind of statistics are easy to do and they're done for everything that it's sold out there, let alone a publisher, who deals with these kind of numbers everyday. If he says at least 50% hated her, then at least 50% hated her. You can always say he's lying, but that's another thing.

If you go to DA, or ANY other place that holds fan art, you're going to find just about EVERY female character to be sexualized.

Just compare the first pages of one and the others. Sure everyone gets sexualized. But don't forget the first page are the most popular arts. In that first page Amy/Cream has 1-2, even Rouge has 3 of them when Sally has 12 or more, then it's safe to assume what exacly do people expect and what they look for in that character.

It doesn't matter if the character is naked. Sonic is naked. The way she was drawn was horrible tough.

[Toby]

Unless memory fails me (which it might), that was the first time Yardley ever drew Sally with short hair, and probably hadn't gotten accustomed to it just yet. He draws her short hair a bit better now, but he did a better job when she had long hair.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just compare the first pages of one and the others. Sure everyone gets sexualized. But don't forget the first page are the most popular arts. In that first page Amy/Cream has 1-2, even Rouge has 3 of them when Sally has 12 or more, then it's safe to assume what exacly do people expect and what they look for in that character.

Dude, why do you keep telling me what I already know?

Thing is, it doesn't matter how many more images Sally has over every other character, she going to be sexualized just like every other female character in the franchise and various others. Doesn't matter if she has well over 100 images on her body, that's just the internet for you.

Edited July 25, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Genesis]

Now that we are on the subject of fan mail, there is something that has been bothering me about that.

I don't read the comics anymore but if I'm at the bookstore, I usually flip through the book. I do that just to see if by some miracle the comic would interest me again. Anyways, I usually end up reading the fan mail because I'm curious in what they have to say.

The last fan mail I read was in issue 201 and I found that some fans are still demanding to see more Amy and/or SonAmy. For what I remember there was two letters that pertained to Amy in that issue. And like with all the Amy/SonAmy letters they answer the letter with a very vague response (from the issues I've seen). Even when I was collecting the comics, they almost always answered Amy/SonAmy letters either vague or just shot down the idea altogether. I myself have sent them similar letters when I read the comic. Needless to say all those letters demanding more character focus on Amy or SonAmy fell on deaf ears.

Point is if Archie really listens to their fans how come a character like Amy still bites the dust? Amy has a large fanbase yet they still treat her like a background character. She's been in this comic for years and they still do almost nothing with her. You would think after all the marketing she gets from SEGA and fan demand, Archie should at least have more focus on her. It makes me think Archie selectively chooses what to listen to just to cater to a certain fanbase despite demands (at least thats how it seems)

With that being said, I doubt (even if there is a high demand) that Sally would be killed off since Archie seems to only care about the fanbase they are catering too. The fanbase that does want Sally. I think Archie cares more about keeping long time SatAm/Archie fans reading instead of actively appeal to more new Sonic fans from different medias to bring in more fellowship. They should be appealing to both.

Personally, I never liked Sally but despite that I did read the comic. With time her character focus got ridicules. Thats one of the many reasons why I left the book. So if she was killed off I wouldn't care, in fact it might actually make me read the comic again if the stories after such an event was good.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Genesis

[Kiljoy]

Well, not trying to be insulting, but a small sample speaks for the whole population if you apply mathematic models, within a trust interval (don't know how it's called in english). This kind of statistics are easy to do and they're done for everything that it's sold out there, let alone a publisher, who deals with these kind of numbers everyday. If he says at least 50% hated her, then at least 50% hated her. You can always say he's lying, but that's another thing.

But here is the thing, Archie didn't ask the audience whether to have her stay or not. They just went off the regular mail that they got. My point is the regular reader like me, who is not the kind of person that would just write a letter or e-mail wouldn't care to do it. Now if in one of Archie's comics they asked the readers to voice their opinions on the matter then it would be more fair.

I know someone is going to say "you can't speak for everyone, you're not the regular reader." Just to clarify, by regular reader I mean someone who doesn't regularly write letters.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Kiljoy

[redmenace]

Dude, why do you keep telling me what I already know?

Thing is, it doesn't matter how many more images Sally has over every other character, she going to be sexualized just like every other female character in the franchise and various others. Doesn't matter if she has well over 100 images on her body, that's just the internet for you.

The point was, SHE gets oversexualised and the FANS know it and catter to that. Proof is what they look for in deviantart for example. A search in google gives the exact same results. I said no such thing about the other female characters not suffering the same fate, they do. Still, they're characters aren't searched for that. I don't know who to thank for her to be drawn normally again, but at least I can read those comics in public without being called a furry. And rest assured it's always because of that #naked squirrel woman with the huge breats and hips" not because of anyone else.

But here is the thing, Archie didn't ask the audience whether to have her stay or not. They just went off the regular mail that they got. My point is the regular reader like me, who is not the kind of person that would just write a letter or e-mail wouldn't care to do it. Now if in one of Archie's comics they asked the readers to voice their opinions on the matter then it would be more fair.

I know someone is going to say "you can't speak for everyone, you're not the regular reader." Just to clarify, by regular reader I mean someone who doesn't regularly write letters.

Then it's even better. The regular mail is unbiased by questionaries. So even if without a question +50% of that mail was hate mail, then it's even more telling where the fans stood. People that hated her and loved her could have sent a letter. I do not like her, never did, never will and I would be glad if she was gone never to return. I did not sent a letter. There's examples on both sides.

[Picchi]

The point was, SHE gets oversexualised and the FANS know it and catter to that. Proof is what they look for in deviantart for example. A search in google gives the exact same results. I said no such thing about the other female characters not suffering the same fate, they do. Still, they're characters aren't searched for that.

In other words, that kind of art for the other girls may happen but it isn't nearly as persistant in occurence compared to Sally.

Its also funny that you mentioned people accusing you of being a furry. My sister was asked by people in school if she was reading porno because of Sally's appearance.

[Miko]

Point is if Archie really listens to their fans how come a character like Amy still bites the dust?

Well Ian likes Sally and used to before he was a fan be very open about his SonSally preferences. Oh, he may deny it now but he's had them nearly liplock, dragged Sally back on the field making countless plotholes to be with her precious Sonic, and now has Khan and Sonic fighting over her. My current impression is, that they will keep up their will they-won't they relationship but if he's going to pick a girl, it'd probably be Sally. Then again he's called "lies and slander" to anyone calling him out on things like that 134 review where he pretty much revealed himself to be a SonSal fan so he may do something to cover his tracks a bit.

But to say Archie's never been interested in their fans? Well, that's just not true. Karl HAD been building up for awhile the eventuality of Sonic and Amy falling in love AND kissing eventually. Sonic went into space, Amy physically grew by a year, was supposed to have became a little bit more mature, Sally was going to be out of the way (if 134 was any indication) and Fiona with no apparent personality that everyone knew would lose. Long story short:you WERE going to get SonAmy, but Karl left.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Miko