Sega apologises to fans (hints at a old styled Sonic game?)

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I disagree on the older games being better. But thats just me as I didnt start with them but I play them later. For me if this new Sonic game is good and it gives Sonic the respect he deserves then Im good. But if it starts to disrespect him again.... yeah.

[shdowhunt60]

 I think this is part of my exhaustion with the nostalgia pandering- the overwhelming exalting of the classic games as the only games worth looking at. There's a lot of interesting ideas that came about as a result of attempts to translate the gameplay or change it altogether, and the downplaying of the 3D games as having nothing to offer has just gotten insulting. All this has done is highlight the fact that they are incapable of competently looking at past work and confidently iterating off of anything that's remotely interesting or unique or modern without leaning back on their earliest material in the most pandering ways possible. This is probably going to just be Generations or Sonic 4 all over again and I'm done with that. If I want to play a classic game, I'll just fucking play Sonic 3 or something.

Indeed. Sonic 3 is a fucking masterpiece, I'm not ever going to dispute that, but you know what? It was something new. It was innovative. Classic Sonic didn't sit there and think, "Gee, let's superficially attempt to recreate in the most half-hearted and cynical way possible, a bygone series of games 20 fucking years ago".

[Indigo Rush]

And for the record, I like games like Rush, Unleashed, Colors and Generations (the boosty ones). I freakin' love Adrenaline Action-junkie the Hedgehog. And I even kinda like Lost World a bit. Basically, I'm not against traditional Sonic games that 'break the mold' more than you'd want or expect, and I think it says a lot that the general public along with a good number of fans thought of 2010-2011 as a surge in quality. 

So, I'm not necessarily saying that the games that don't play just like the originals need to go. Not at all. But I take issue when they are around at the expense of what many consider to be the "basic/core" Sonic formula. And though I have fun with it on occasion, I don't think Sonic 4 is an acceptable stand-in, either. 

"Going back to the roots," though it doesn't mean anything anymore, should be a good thing.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yeah I think your right. The thing that bothers me more if the return of "better Sonics". 

[shdowhunt60]

You know, as fucking obnoxious as the TSS guys are, it's getting really hard to argue against this. This is mainline Sonic's direction now, as "legacy" Sonic.

Edited October 27, 2015 by shdowhunt60

[FriendBot]

You know, as fucking obnoxious as the TSS guys are, it's getting really hard to argue against this. This is mainline Sonic's direction now, as "legacy" Sonic.

Comparing missing the "true" spirit of Sonic to a child abduction, FUCKING NO! 

I refuse to give these people credit if they say shit like that.

And can we please stop being dramatic over a gaming franchise

Edited October 27, 2015 by Freddy Fuckboy

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

So this is their response:

 

Via Sonic's Facebook. =P

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Treasure hunter Sonic!

If this is real sign me up for this! Focus on Sonic, expending on Sonic. YES!

[Pawn]

Treasure hunter Sonic!

If this is real sign me up for this! Focus on Sonic, expending on Sonic. YES!

It's a parody of this:

Edited October 27, 2015 by Pawnkin

[FriendBot]

Treasure hunter Sonic!

If this is real sign me up for this! Focus on Sonic, expending on Sonic. YES!

 

It's just a mock-up poster of the latest Halo game, it's just in typical Webber silliness

Espio'd by the Pawn.....

Edited October 27, 2015 by Freddy Fuckboy

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Oh shit. I didnt know. Oh well. 

I wanted a game that focus on Sonic himself. 

[Zaysho]

Oh shit. I didnt know. Oh well. 

I wanted a game that focus on Sonic himself. 

Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World, the Storybooks...

Sonic gets a lot of focus, and has had plenty of solo outings in the last seven years, ya know.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Zaysho

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World, the Storybooks...

Sonic gets a lot of focus, ya know.

I know. And I want more games like that for where Sonic is not only story and hero focus but gameplay focus to. I want to see more of Sonic. He has poetentiol to be awesome. I actually do wanna see a game where Sonic treasure hunts or does something to show is other ablities. 

[Nepenthe]

Sonic games being made to play and control like they used to (read: good) is not pandering, it's quality control.

Quality control is making sure a game feels good to control, is polished, and is overall nicely designed in other aesthetic areas regardless of the game's design origins. We can have good Sonic games of any kind of design, old or theoretical. Truly if this were an honest assertion of quality control there would actually be no need to drudge up this arbitrary-ass line between the classic games and everything else, but here we are- once again- doing this same fucking song-and-dance and acting like the classic games are the only ones worth emulating anymore.

Second, you emphasized the wrong word. The active word in that sentence is "inspired," which is a big fucking departure from your assertion that they're saying "we're going to make Sonic games physically act like the classic ones." Inspiration can mean any-fucking-thing. Unleashed is "inspired" by Classic Sonic. Sonic 4 is "inspired" by Classic Sonic. Colors, Gens, and Lost World are all "inspired" by classic Sonic. They're not saying anything we haven't heard before.

[Zaysho]

I know. And I want more games like that for where Sonic is not only story and hero focus but gameplay focus to. I want to see more of Sonic. He has poetentiol to be awesome. I actually do wanna see a game where Sonic treasure hunts or does something to show is other ablities. 

Of course Sonic has the potential to be awesome; all the games I listed demonstrated that very well. I feel what you're asking for is for Sonic to fill in other characters' roles now instead of letting him team up with characters who already do things like treasure hunting, like Rouge or Knuckles (or better yet, just let them do it on their own for a change).

Don't you think that's a little unfair? Imagine if I suggested we need a game where we replace Sonic and hand his role and powers over to Knuckles, you wouldn't like that, would you? If that's unacceptable, you should be able to understand why some would be opposed to handing over other characters' unique abilities and characteristics to Sonic, too.

[Wittymations]

 Just chiming in for clarification's sake:

Bolded, underlined and upsized for emphasis.

I know people are tired of nostalgia pandering, but it seems this discussion is more focused on being frustrated about SEGA relying on how the Classics looked. The quote specifically says how they "played."

Thing is, it's SEGA. Now if they were discussing how Sonic played in a similar line of Adventure's speed section in that it acts like a general 3D platform, taking Classic idea's and transitioning to 3D. Then alright, I get that. In fact, I highly encourage it. I miss that style of of Sonic's 3D gameplay and really hate the boost. But I really, really, REALLY doubt that's what they're going to do.

 

When I think about Sonic Team, I think about "missing the point." Their idea of "play" will go as far as being 2D -- that's it. Then they'll tack on a bunch of those aesthetics I'm REAAAAAAAAALLY tired of.

 

Now I want to be wrong, oh god do I want to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Scary Homework

[Indigo Rush]

Now I remember why I don't post my thoughts quite as often.

Nepenthe, when I said "quality control", I should have indicated that I was speaking cynically. I'm talking about Sonic games as a whole, here. I certainly know what it actually means, I'm implying that the series as a gaming franchise is bereft of a quality long since attained due to them, in my perception, not sticking to the core concepts that made Sonic a heavy-hitter to begin with. And no, I already said that I don't think that the Classics are the only games worth "emulating." On this exact same page I already gave praise to other traditional Sonic games that do things differently, even to the point where it seems like they shouldn't. Boost games. Lost World. Etc.

I should however further emphasize that I referenced the Classic games, that is, "momentum heavy platformers with a focus on speed, platforming, exploration and rolling/pinball mechanics." The Genesis games currently are the only ones (aside from the Dreamcast and Advance games, which I also mentioned in my post) that do this in a meaningful way, hence the shorthand. I thought, but maybe I didn't do so well enough, that terms such as "To me, anyway" would also input a personal bias towards this, for what it's worth. I think the Classics are the best interpretation of Sonic as a videogame, so I'm going to base my argument on that. 

Also, thanks for bringing up "inspired," though I thought I mentioned that "whatever going back to the roots means" was enough to bring that distinction to light. I know very well that there is a distinction. That isn't my focus. I'm not asserting that's what SEGA is going to do, or necessarily wants to do. I know well enough (and you should have picked up on this with my barrel of salt comment) that this is likely just more PR jargon.

The main idea of my post isn't to defend SEGA, it's to make distinction between game mechanics and aesthetics, and the importance of the former in this whole discussion.

[Nepenthe]

We've not simply had games that are classically-inspired within the aesthetics, such as Lost World's art design. We've had games that- for better or worse- try to invoke classic Sonic through gameplay in various ways whether that be simply the use of a 2D viewpoint to a sequel to the classics to classic Sonic in Generations. People have directly and indirectly reference gameplay notions throughout this thread as well (the common thread being "stop apologizing and make a good game already"), so we're not simply talking about the look of the game but how it plays too. The distinction hasn't been lost so much as it's not been directly stated, but I think that's more of a case of the topic simply proceeding without the need to state the obvious.

I'm also not implying, or at least didn't mean to, that you weren't speaking from your own point of view. My point of contention is that you've- intentionally or otherwise- equated quality control with the classic gameplay style which is...tiring? I mean, yes, 99.9% of people think the classic games are the best Sonic games, but we're tired of the entirety of these games in various forms being shoved in our faces as the only solution to the franchise's problems. Again, if this is about quality control, it honestly doesn't matter if the game is a classic game or an Adventure game or a boost game or Parkour or something new entirely. Quality control is quality control.

[azoo]

My gosh diddle dingus I'm tired of cutting the series into pieces. Classic this, Adventure that. Boost here, Lost World there. Sure, we have no choice considering all the inconsistency, but I'm tired of taking sides and assuming everyone is going to act as if all of one of these is all we need. And I know you don't believe that Nep, but you should know neither does Indy, nor do I.

When Indy says 'classic' in relation to it being about quality I think he's talking about the core gameplay idea and not the entire classic style schtick. I don't even want that and I'm sure he doesn't either. And sure, great games could come from different gameplay styles and 'quality control' isn't synonymous with that style, but I think he's trying to make two points rather than one.

I just want to roll down slopes, jump and bounce on things, run up walls, go flying off ramps, rev up a Spin Dash, home into an enemy for precision's sake for a 3D game, and yeah there's the recipe. That's 'core Sonic gameplay' to me. The classics had it, the Adventures had it, the Advances had it, the Rushes sorta had it and classic Generations halfway had it. I just want it back, tried and true. That's my definition of a good Sonic pizza pie and not absolutely everyone else's, sure, but IDK who'd really complain against it as if that means anything against the stories getting an improvement or getting extra content or so on so forth.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Azoo

[Indigo Rush]

This isn't about quality control in the "correct" sense. It's about franchise integrity and identity. 

And I absolutely am saying that looking to the Classics should be the first step, and I don't care how tired you think it is. Other games certainly have a lot to offer, but starting with what worked is a far better strategy than spitballing new ideas. I know you're not suggesting the latter, and I know that SEGA is doing the former in all the wrong ways (there's far more to Sonic than just being in 2D and having checkerboard platforms). But SEGA shoving Classic Sonic in a superficial manner does not negate the standard that the original games actually set: momentum-based platforming, speed, exploration, pinball/bounce/roll mechanics, that. The fact that SEGA and Sonic Team can't figure out what made them tick is besides the point I'm trying to make: Sonic is inherently tied to the Classic formula, regardless of 2D or 3D. It's legacy literally started on that foundation, and I argue that Sonic should depend on them as a standard.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Indigo Rush
I can't vocab

[azoo]

And that's what I'm saying too (and have been saying for a long time at that, lol).

But that has nothing to do with visual style, character designs, storytelling or anything like that. The argument isn't all or nothing "back to basics" kinda junk, this is a return to form from a gameplay perspective that's being requested. I just want Sega to recognize what makes Sonic tick much like how Nintendo understood it for Mario and Zelda long ago. Sure, other facets matter too, but this is numero uno for me and always will be.

Granted, it very well could be that "back to basics" junk, and it's a snowball's chance in Hell for Sega to actually do what I suggested rather than go off the deep end with nostalgia and terrible junk like no story/characters/etc with no understanding of the original game feel, but still.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Azoo

[Regen]

I would just like to jump in and say I would be totally down for a mainline 2D Console Sonic game that played like Sonic 2 and Sonic 3.

[Nepenthe]

My gosh diddle dingus I'm tired of cutting the series into pieces. Classic this, Adventure that. Boost here, Lost World there. Sure, we have no choice considering all the inconsistency, but I'm tired of taking sides and assuming everyone is going to act as if all of one of these is all we need. And I know you don't believe that Nep, but you should know neither does Indy, nor do I.

When Indy says 'classic' in relation to it being about quality I think he's talking about the core gameplay idea and not the entire classic style schtick. I don't even want that and I'm sure he doesn't either. And sure, great games could come from different gameplay styles and 'quality control' isn't synonymous with that style, but I think he's trying to make two points rather than one.

I actually don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing the difference between the games over the years. The problem is, as you said, when people assume others are completely entrenched in some camp when preferences are stated or that having multiple preferences just isn't a thing that's possible. But this kind of hard line isn't something I'm just presuming about the conversation. The press release itself implies this, and said press release is what this entire topic is based on. If this topic is not about Sega's press release anymore and instead what we all simply personally want out of this, well then, I apologize for fucking up in that regard. 

Just as well, I already clarified that my posts- and indeed the entire topic- isn't simply about classic aesthetics and people being tired of checkerboards or something. That's a "green eyes" argument. You put checkerboards across my favorite games and I'd still be fine with them. This is about the gameplay too, and people have talked about the gameplay, mainly that it doesn't matter so long as Sega delivers a platforming game that is competent and meaningful in all of its design qualities at this point. But also in the context of this tangent, for me and perhaps for others, it's also about what "classic gameplay" has come to mean not just as some gameplay idea but as a meta concept for how people tend to downplay, negate, or backhand other viable gameplay ideas and styles and the people who like or champion those things, whether or not it's intentional.

Honestly, do you think that people would have a problem with talking about the series in terms of different styles if those styles were actually seen as theoretically equivalent, no more loaded than what someone's favorite color was? Of course not; half of the reason people talk badly about the fanbase being fractured is because one's gameplay preferences come packaged with negative preconceptions, aside from the classic games of course, which is one of the problems with this whole entire classic stint we've had for years despite the quality of the games. It's not just that it's boiled the games down into parodies of older, more heartfelt games, it's that other sects of the fandom have been thrown under the bus in various ways the whole time. So heads up- people are always going to be miffed so long as this keeps being the foundation for conversation.

But SEGA shoving Classic Sonic in a superficial manner does not negate the standard that the original games actually set. The fact that SEGA and Sonic Team can't figure out what made them tick is besides the point I'm trying to make: Sonic is inherently tied to the Classic formula, regardless of 2D or 3D. It's legacy depends on them. 

And that's the thing- the classic games aren't the only games that worked nor the only game designs that can be upheld to a particularly high standard, which is the type of annoying presumption I'm talking about. This whole press release, Sega's way of thinking over the past several years, the public's insistence on boiling down Sonic to a few specific things as the only things that can work, and even the little insistence that going back to something that worked definitely means "classic gameplay," whatever that even means now, is endemic of the patronizing attitude people have had to those who don't exalt the classic games as much others presume they should. Basically, I'm tired of entertaining the idea that it's the best way to do things (or perhaps more appropriately, the least wrong way to do things), particularly when I myself don't even have fun with the actual classic games anymore. If we want to spitball ideas and hash out specifics about what classic gameplay means (because again, in the context of this discussion, I apparently have no idea what the fuck it even means anymore), then let's do that, but acting like people aren't going to take offense to any implication or statement that their favorite ideas are the completely wrong starting point for any new initiatives is disingenuous.

[Regen]

And that's the thing- the classic games aren't the only games that worked nor the only game designs that can be upheld to a particularly high standard, which is the type of annoying presumption I'm talking about.

The Classic Sonic games are far superior than everything that came after them though, let's be honest.

I like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 but they are inherently flawed games. Sonic Adventure 1 is borderline broken and Adventure 2's only good for 1/3rd of the game. As for the games after Adventure, only Colours and Generations are solid games and even they have severe control problems when you aren't just running forward.

At its best, 3D Sonic is only good conceptually aside from Colours and Generations which are actually good products. Sonic Adventure is an excellent game conceptually and when it works I think it's the best 3D Sonic game, but as a game, it's an overall utter mess. And this isn't just because it's so old, it's a buggy mess in a way contemporary 3D platformers weren't and even Sonic Adventure 2 is a far better overall product in terms of functionality. That's not without getting into the other characters.

I agree that it's annoying when people claim Sonic in 3D is like an acid pool, but I also get annoyed when people try to downplay the Classic titles. The only arguably weak Sonic Classics are Sonic 1 and CD but that's subjective level design differences and the games aren't broken messes or(and) rife with boring alternate playstyles that have nothing to do with Sonic.

I'm not saying you do this, but it's just something I think should be addressed because I see it a lot.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Regen

[Nepenthe]

People being tired of the classic games being shoved in their faces is not the classic games getting downplayed. It's people being tired of these games being shoved in their faces. One or two people who genuinely dislike them (although I hate CD so fucking much on its own merits and it took a fan to fucking fix it) aren't really a factor worth considering as something that needs to be addressed. These games don't need white-knighting.