Sega apologises to fans (hints at a old styled Sonic game?)

[Regen]

People being tired of the classic games being shoved in their faces is not the classic games getting downplayed. It's people being tired of these games being shoved in their faces. One or two people who genuinely dislike them (although I hate CD so fucking much on its own merits because it took a fan to fucking fix it) aren't really a factor worth considering as something that needs to be addressed. These games don't need white-knighting.

Oh, I don't think they need defending. I agree with you on that.

But let's get one thing straight, us Classic Sonic fans have had fucking nothing over the past 20 something years. We got Sonic 4, which is kind of like saying Adventure fans got served with '06, and we got Sonic Generations which was really neat but that was also pleasing Adventure and Boost fans, that game tried to please everyone (which I like because I'm a fan of those two categories too). We have had only hand me down scraps in the form of the occasional Oil Ocean cannon in Lost World. Wow

Yes, SEGA has been pushing the Classic motifs with the aesthetic, which I'm grateful for, but it's influenced too much by other franchises (Lost World and Colours) and loses that 'Sonic' appeal. 

Really, SEGA's not been pleasing anyone. The Classics don't need defending, but I think the demand for them should be defended because we've just got scraps.

And where the fuck is my 2D Sonic Main Console title we've never had?! Who makes decisions at SEGA?!

 

[Indigo Rush]

Nepenthe, I feel like the problem is definition of terms, but assuming you don't want the games that I described because the terms are too limiting (momentum-based platforming, speed, exploration, pinball/bounce/roll mechanics) then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree at this point, then. I strongly adhere to my stance that the Classics are the place to start because they kind of started the whole Sonic franchise to begin with and introduced everything that made Sonic stand out in the first place. 

And again, I never actually said that the others had nothing to offer (the opposite, really), and I never ever said I wanted them gone in the first place, but that the mechanics and concepts from the origins of Sonic should be adhered to as the standard formula. You can do a lot with the description both me and Azoo put forward (and even drop off one or two mechanics) and have a fantastic Sonic game. But sticking to the core is important. 

For me, this includes the speed levels in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, you know. And Sonic Advance 1 and 2. In a vague sense Advance 3, and even the DS games in some points. Games that many do not even consider to be "Classic." Sonic Unleashed (day), Colors, Generations (modern) and Lost World, as fun as they are, do not. But they're still genuinely good, and they have a lot to offer on their own, and I'm not knocking them for not sticking to the core, just that they aren't that core.

I still think the series should dive into the boost formula on occasion as well as a momentum-driven 3D style and a retro-inspired 2D line of games (not necessarily sprite-based, mind you). But whenever I say that, there's always someone who chimes in that it'll just divide the fanbase further, and that the series should stick to one gameplay style. Now, I happen to disagree with that, as even top dog franchises like Mario, Zelda and Metroid have different styles of gameplay for the right occasion, all equally valid. But they all share a core spirit to them. Most Sonic games these days don't. Comparing Sonic 3 to Colors to Lost World to Heroes to Sonic 06 and so on each give a radically different experience and taste, and many of them shoehorn mechanics that have nothing to do with Sonic to begin with, for that matter.

EDIT
I'm probably going to go ahead and withdraw from this. Nepenthe and myself have made our points clear and I don't think there's anything left to clarify. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by Indigo Rush

[Jango]

In the end of the day, the only "core" SEGA found is the aesthetics. And I can barely stand for that argument because of abominations like 06, even if there are some fantastic (as in fantasy, ficction) elements. Unleashed did that too, but it wasn't as offensive because the game was fucking great and beautiful neverthless. Which comes to Nep's point, if I understood it correctly.

A good Sonic game doesn't really need to be inspired by the classics to be great nor do their quality is defined by how much speed Sonic gain from rolling down a slope... As long as you don't lost or degrade the series image or logic (like making Sonic act out of character or replace rings with donuts), there really isn't a "recipe to success", as lots of people and SEGA relate to the classics. Yes, they are great games, but seriously, it's, with all due respect, pathetic of their part to think that going over and over backwards will magically make the games better. I also feel sorry for Sonic Team, the guys over there are probably entering in stagnation.

I said hundreds of time, get the 2 guys you know which, to work on a retro game, because that one will definitely play like the classics, and let Sonic Team free to work on a full 3D ambitious game!

Edited October 27, 2015 by Jango

[Nepenthe]

On the contrary, Classic fans have probably been pandered to in some form for the entirety of this franchise's lifespan with the exception of ShtH and Sonic 06, and even 06 was rationalized as a "return to roots" somehow. From SA1 and 2's Sonic gameplay to the latter's Green Hill Zone throwback to N and Advance, Heroes' aesthetics and the resurrection of the Chaotix, Unleashed's use of a 2D viewpoint, Sonic 4, Colors' reliance on a 2D viewpoint, Generations itself, Lost World's simplistic platforming and art style, and of course the constant re-releases of the original classics on every single electronic including your toaster. You not being particularly happy with the results doesn't actually change what their modus operandi has been. And honestly, this much effort across this amount of time is considered scraps? I wish I got scraps.

Nepenthe, I feel like the problem is definition of terms, but assuming you don't want the games that I described because the terms are too limiting (momentum-based platforming, speed, exploration, pinball/bounce/roll mechanics) then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree at this point, then. I strongly adhere to my stance that the Classics are the place to start because they kind of started the whole Sonic franchise to begin with and introduced everything that made Sonic stand out in the first place. 

I still think the series should dive into the boost formula on occasion as well as a momentum-driven 3D style and a retro-inspired 2D line of games (not necessarily sprite-based, mind you). But whenever I say that, there's always someone who chimes in that it'll just divide the fanbase further, and that the series should stick to one gameplay style. Now, I happen to disagree with that, as even top dog franchises like Mario, Zelda and Metroid have different styles of gameplay for the right occasion, all equally valid. But they all share a core spirit to them. Most Sonic games these days don't. Comparing Sonic 3 to Colors to Lost World to Heroes to Sonic 06 and so on each give a radically different experience and taste, and many of them shoehorn mechanics that have nothing to do with Sonic to begin with, for that matter.

This is definitely an issue with definitions and even the contexts in which we're approaching this conversation. My problem has not been that I don't things like rolling mechanics or exploration shouldn't come back at all and I've even advocated for them in some instances. I don't even care if boost gameplay comes back or not. My problem on this tangent has been the implication that Sega, the public, and the fanbase works from when discussing this franchise's future being that classic ideals are the only ideals worth adhering to (and by classic I do mean the way the old 2D games were set up and worked because honestly that is the most likely definition Sega is working from here considering precedence, not simply the broad application of those mechanics across the franchise in games like SA1 or Advance.) It's just gotten patronizing, annoying, and disingenuous at this point, and it pops up more often than you're giving it credit for, sometimes subconsciously. For example, on the one hand you say you're not making a judgement call on the other games, but on the other you say things we need to go back to the classic gameplay that "actually worked" versus "spitballing random ideas" despite the fact that kind of black-and-white argument isn't necessary to clarify since no one was actually making it. All this kind of statement does, the divisive press release, and ultimately Sega's embarrassing pandering has done is just reinforce silly false dichotomies and unnecessary limitations that only serve to negatively downplay anything that isn't "classic" and over time the definition of what is considered classic has changed quite a bit. Surely we can advocate for better games and rolling mechanics without this kind of trifling, passive-aggressive fluff throughout? We've done it in plenty of SA1/Adventure/Sonic's future threads and I fully agreed with it.

In short, I'm not actually advocating against the kind of classic gameplay you're talking about. I'm advocating against classic fans being butts about it.

[Badnik Mechanic]

So I've really read the article/apology/quote... here are my thoughts on the matter...

http://www.sonicstadium.org/2015/10/the-spin-words/

Basically... the 'words' are kind pointless. The apology means nothing because this guy is not on the development team, he's not influencing development or even testing the development, he's selling the development. 

The apology is meaningless, in fact if you really read what he says, I don't think he's apologising but saying that Sega itself has apologised at some point and he's quoting that... however I cannot find any evidence to support this so I'm falling on the side of a made up lie.

The only thing to take from this is that it's just further hints that the 25th is classic focused. 

And that Sega's PR is slowly becoming this.

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by Hogfather

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Gonna side with Nepenthe on the general argument, but with the caveat being that neither of you guys are actually trying to understand each other.

And if you are, you've likely been passive-agressive and backhanded about it while treating your preferences as better. You guys remember that mess you did to me when I suggested in the SA1 topic, when Azoo suggest we remake SA1 and I suggested to use that idea as a springboard to fix this franchise's identity problem - while stating more than once that it isn't to do the same things as what ShTH and Sonic 06 did - only to be blasted over something else I had to clarify that I wasn't saying? Well that's the kinda shit she's talking about that she's had issues with.

[Jango]

Pretty much:

[FantasticMrRobb]

SONIC 5

I'd be okay with it.

 

On the other hand, I for one am happy to hear SEGA apologizing. I'll admit, I support everything Sonic that SEGA has ever thrown at us, no matter what. Despite knowing that the games or whatnot may be bad, I still found something to love in them. SEGA going out of their way to tell their fans that they're sorry for games like Sonic '06 and Rise of Lyric, promising to try and correct themselves, I find to be very noble of them. I think we may actually see a change in Sonic this time around. c:

[NoirSuede]

I'd be okay with it.

 

Hidden Content

On the other hand, I for one am happy to hear SEGA apologizing. I'll admit, I support everything Sonic that SEGA has ever thrown at us, no matter what. Despite knowing that the games or whatnot may be bad, I still found something to love in them. SEGA going out of their way to tell their fans that they're sorry for games like Sonic '06 and Rise of Lyric, promising to try and correct themselves, I find to be very noble of them. I think we may actually see a change in Sonic this time around. c:

Usually with statements like these it's really obvious that they're just lying, but with Sega of Japan's new CEO calling for change followed suit by Sega of Europe's CEO (oddley SoA is doing nothing), you're probably right 

[DiamondX]

Well, i dont really like the classic games as much as others(i think some of the 3d ones are better) so....

Edited October 28, 2015 by Diamond Knight

[Daisy-Fan]

As much i love S3&K and Sonic Rush Adventure. it could be sweet to have some handheld games on Vita and 3DS. Advance and Rush were such great games.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Daisy-Fan

[Agie]

All I know is, a few words and a few good games won't be enough to convince me this time. It was last time...but then 2014 happened. And then Cranky Food Friends.

So in order for me to be convinced that Sega's changing for the better, it's gonna need a noticeable overhaul. And even if what's said is true, I wouldn't expect it until somewhere next year at the end.

[Regen]

On the contrary, Classic fans have probably been pandered to in some form for the entirety of this franchise's lifespan with the exception of ShtH and Sonic 06, and even 06 was rationalized as a "return to roots" somehow. From SA1 and 2's Sonic gameplay to the latter's Green Hill Zone throwback to N and Advance, Heroes' aesthetics and the resurrection of the Chaotix, Unleashed's use of a 2D viewpoint, Sonic 4, Colors' reliance on a 2D viewpoint, Generations itself, Lost World's simplistic platforming and art style, and of course the constant re-releases of the original classics on every single electronic including your toaster. You not being particularly happy with the results doesn't actually change what their modus operandi has been. And honestly, this much effort across this amount of time is considered scraps? I wish I got scraps.

 

Yeah, but that shits all meaningless  . I don't care if we get the constant Green Hill remakes, I mean it's cool, but Sonic Adventure 2 Green Hill and Sonic Heroes Seaside Hill don't play anything like the Classics. As for the Chaotix returning, that's an obscure game barely anyone likes, that's like saying Adventure fans get some fanservice because Big the Cat was playable in Sonic Heroes  . The 2D resurgence is a valid point but, again, it doesn't play anything like the Classics. It's just the Boost formula with a 2D perspective. And everyone got treated with Generations in some way. As for Lost World, that game was honestly just Mario.

The only point I agree with you here is Advance. Advance was awesome! But the Advance series has long died and we've never seen anything like it in years.

I don't want these silly nods to Classic Sonic. They are pointless. I want a genuine 2D Classic Sonic game and we haven't had one since Advance 1. Sonic 4 is terrible and I refuse to count it, that's like counting Sonic '06 as Sonic Adventure 3. That's why I say we have gotten scraps, everything we have had has been superfluous. 

Lost World's simplistic platforming

This is the crux of the problem, these superfluous fan-nods are all hollow! Lost World half looks the part, but it plays nothing like the Classics because it has Mario type platforming, bad Mario style platforming that is nothing like Classic Sonic. 

I appreciate you Sonic Adventure fans have gotten nothing since Sonic Adventure 2. But we Classic fans have been left in the cold too  

And I'm a big fan of Adventure 1 and 2, I just prefer the Classics is all.

You guys remember that mess you did to me when I suggested in the SA1 topic, when Azoo suggest we remake SA1 and I suggested to use that idea as a springboard to fix this franchise's identity problem - while stating more than once that it isn't to do the same things as what ShTH and Sonic 06 did - only to be blasted over something else I had to clarify that I wasn't saying? Well that's the kinda shit she's talking about that she's had issues with.

I don't think a remake of SA 1 would be a good idea because of all the baggage it would bring, but I think a spiritual successor on the best conceptual parts would be pretty cool too. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by Regen

[TheChris110]

FYI: Adventure fans got Sonic Unleashed.

http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/sonic_unleashed/news/sonic_unleashed_began_as_sonic_adventure_3.html

Unleashed started of as Adventure 3. 

There are years between Adventure 2 and Unleashed so they changed things up a bit but nevertheless Unleashed contains the key elements of the Adventure series: Different gameplaystyles, a world inspired by the real world, a mix between realistic and cartoon in terms of visuals etc.

Unleashed isn't Sonic Adventure 3. Sonic Unleashed is Sonic Unleashed (Sonic World Adventure in Japan) but I would definitely see it as a spiritual successor to the first two Adventure games.

The same way Sonic Advance is somewhat a successor to the Classics even though it isn't a legit Sonic 4. 

I view at Sonic 06 as it is it's own thing. The style of the graphics is more realistic than the style of the Adventure games and it was supposed to be a reboot (hence the name SONIC THE HEDGEHOG).

[Salamander]

I'm pretty sure that Shadow The Hedgehog was originally announced under the "Sonic Adventure 3" banner, too.  (Cf. Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3.)  Probably quite a few games can be considered as "Sonic Adventure 3" in spirit, but with the name itself having gone unused in the final releases, it seems it's become not just a name but an idea, a symbol of the gameplay and narrative choices of the original Adventure games.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

An ideal case for the newer games "playing like the classics" as it's put in that quote, would be to start ground-up Adventure-esque (more like SOnic Adventure 1 with how that played like a 3d classic Sonic) accompanied by staples such as the homing attack, and build gradually off of that.

Just don't call it Sonic Adventure 3, and hopefully that should help make way for at least Sonic's base-gameplay standard.

[NoirSuede]

An ideal case for the newer games "playing like the classics" as it's put in that quote, would be to start ground-up Adventure-esque (more like SOnic Adventure 1 with how that played like a 3d classic Sonic) accompanied by staples such as the homing attack, and build gradually off of that.

Do you think Parkour has any place in the Adventure-esque style ? Personally I think it's necessary so that it's more clear on whether you can run up a wall or not, not like in SA1 where you can suddenly run up a wall with no warning and instantly fall-off because you can't prepare for it in time.

[Blacklightning]

Do you think Parkour has any place in the Adventure-esque style ? Personally I think it's necessary so that it's more clear on whether you can run up a wall or not, not like in SA1 where you can suddenly run up a wall with no warning and instantly fall-off because you can't prepare for it in time.

I'm not even sure how this is supposed to be a problem. Learning where you can and can't do things is arguably the whole point of learning and memorizing levels for an optimal playthrough, and if you can just run up walls unexpectedly that strikes me more as a problem with the level design than the gameplay style itself.

In any case, Lost World's definition of parkour comes off as incredibly clunky and mechanical to me - there's a few small things to learn from it, but I ultimately wouldn't take its example verbatim. If it were up to me, I'd just make Sonic interact with steep-angled surfaces passively without changing much (eg: play a wallrunning animation if he rubs against a wall in midair, even if it doesn't affect his descent speed much) and allow him to hop off them just like horizontal terrain. Kind of like a cross between the Triangle Jump in Heroes/ShTH and the walljumping mechanics in Super Metroid.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Do you think Parkour has any place in the Adventure-esque style ? Personally I think it's necessary so that it's more clear on whether you can run up a wall or not, not like in SA1 where you can suddenly run up a wall with no warning and instantly fall-off because you can't prepare for it in time.

It's not absolutely needed, but hell yes do I think that proper parkour has a place in a 3d Sonic game, especially if it has open world like Adventure 1 did! Done right, it would add a new layer of gameplay potential and platforming from all angles to help spice things up.

Lost Worlds parkour was a bit clunky on entry, but that's no reason to eliminate parkour from the equation entirely. The more interaction with the environment allowing you to use it to your advantage in-game, the better!

Edited October 28, 2015 by Jovahexeon Ace Joranvexeon

[NoirSuede]

 If it were up to me, I'd just make Sonic interact with steep-angled surfaces passively without changing much (eg: play a wallrunning animation if he rubs against a wall in midair, even if it doesn't affect his descent speed much) and allow him to hop off them just like horizontal terrain. Kind of like a cross between the Triangle Jump in Heroes/ShTH and the walljumping mechanics in Super Metroid.

Then you'd have the exact problem Lost World has where you'd cling to a wall you didn't meant to, but even worse since there's no sure-fire way of avoiding it (at least Lost World's run button meant that you can kinda regulate whether you'd cling to a wall or not, if it were up to me i'd just make that button a passive "Mantle" button like in Titanfall).

[Diogenes]

I definitely think there's a place for parkour in the series, but Sonic's parkour should tie in naturally with the rest of his abilities. Sonic can already wallrun without specific "parkour" mechanics; if he does have the ability to run on a wall by jumping into it, it should use the same controls as if he had used a quarterpipe to get on the wall, not Lost World's weird stiff controls.

[NoirSuede]

I definitely think there's a place for parkour in the series, but Sonic's parkour should tie in naturally with the rest of his abilities. Sonic can already wallrun without specific "parkour" mechanics; if he does have the ability to run on a wall by jumping into it, it should use the same controls as if he had used a quarterpipe to get on the wall, not Lost World's weird stiff controls.

Parkour mostly helps when there's no quarter-pipes around, thus making the level more organic as you no longer need to slap quarter-pipes everytime you want the player to run up a wall, but if you have both then won't they clash ?

[CottonCandy]

A bit late to the party. :v

Actions speak louder than words. I do appreciate the apologies but it's pretty much nothing. Plus, the whole nostalgia pandering seems so forced to me. It feels like their using it as a way to win back an audience.

In order to win back an audience, you have to make enjoyable games. Classic style or not.  Then again, everyone is so fractured whenever sonic is involved so I guess the levels of "fun" depends on your tastes.   

[Indigo Rush]

Guess what's trending on Facebook, now.

 

 

 

 

That's right

a deer walks into the emergency department

[Blacklightning]

Then you'd have the exact problem Lost World has where you'd cling to a wall you didn't meant to

...what are you talking about? I didn't even mention clinging to walls, only playing a wallrun animation if you happen to rub into one naturally. This would simply signify when you're able to do a wall jump - it won't affect Sonic's physics otherwise, so there is literally zero downside to hitting a wall otherwise that didn't already exist.