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Sega of America's chief operating officer says 'words'


Badnik Mechanic

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My argument about the things SEGA has done to revamp the brand are mostly based on my experiences with SA2. I use this as an example. I had a lot of friends who were into that game (GameCube version of course!) for gameplay other than Sonic/Shadow's (treasure hunting, 2P battles, chao garden, etc: those are the main ones I remember my friends really enjoying). Fans would rather Sonic be without those elements, and yet it was those very elements that drew people into the game. And if it weren't for the awesome social experiences I had playing that game (along with other aspects of the franchise that were active at the time, such as the anime and the comic book), I can't guarantee that I would still be here as a Sonic fan to this day.

Your personal experience about SA2 drawing you and your friends into the series doesn't work as supporting reasons for your argument in the previous post that all brands need to appeal to new audiences in order to maintain an audience. The experiences you and your friends had in concerns to getting into Sonic with that specific game doesn't always translate into what happens in other franchises and their fans, nor does it mean that this should also apply to other franchises and their fans. It also doesn't address the previous point I raised that significant changes made to a brand for the sake of making it appeal to more people, has historically come back to torpedo said brand in sales and reputation in the majority of cases. People's fondness for Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts' vehicular construction gameplay doesn't change the fact that most existing Banjo fans didn't buy it because it threw out the collect-a-thon platformer gameplay of the previous two games, and that the Banjo series has yet to receive a new game as a result.

At the same time, I know a lot of people that quit playing Sonic because the quality of the games just got ridiculously bad (Sonic 06). I personally believe that quality is what makes Sonic games suffer, not necessarily the ideas. I hope I'm not getting you wrong, but an example of your argument would be something along these lines: "the problem with *i.e. Sonic Unleashed* is that SEGA tried too hard to revamp the brand by introducing a new idea (in this case, the Werehog) instead of just appealing to the base audience and sticking with what the series does best". Now, ignoring the bias of fan-expectations (referring to when a Sonic fan has a different idea of what Sonic "should be", and imposes that opinion on his/her critique of any of Sonic's games), I find that the problem with Unleashed isn't in the IDEA of the Werehog, but in the lack of polish they put into the actual Werehog gameplay (I'm speaking for the HD version, which I've played recently. It's been a LONG time since I touched the Wii/PS2 one :P )

The entire reason fans have so-called "biased" expectations are because their expectations are based on what Sega has established with previous Sonic games, what to expect when they pick up a Sonic game. Despite the tendencies of some to blame a diverse fanbase, there is still a basic notion of what generally constitutes as a Sonic game for not only fans of the series, but also for consumers and reviewers. You don't throw out the "you're jaded" accusation as a defense if the next Mario game plays like a first person shooter instead of a platformer and people get angry about it.

If Sonic games only suffered from quality people wouldn't be complaining about the Adventure games or even recent games like Colors and Generations over things like gameplay, tone in narrative, and even voice actors among other things, even though general consensus is that they are all decent or good games. Nor would the series have historically dropped off in sales as steeply as it has, especially compared to sales of the earlier Sonic games.

I don't agree that Sonic games don't suffer from ideas. Making half of Unleashed's gameplay a slow-paced beat-'em-up platformer doesn't strike me as anything other than ill-advised. Nor do I think giving Sonic a seriously-played interspecies romance with Princess Elise in Sonic 06, or giving Shadow a darker-and-edgier spinoff where he's wielding pistols and cursing, were anywhere near the realm of acceptable. I'm sure I'm far from alone when I say this.

And not only that, but from a developer's standpoint, they want to be able to surprise and delight fans with interesting new twists on the characters, stories, and gameplay they know and love. A recent example of this was in an interview with Mr. Aonuma (Director of Zelda series), in which he states, "I always want to implement something new and surprising into every game". Lost World is another example of this in Sonic: if you go back and read interviews with Iizuka, he says that after Generations, they just wanted to do something new and different.

The negative reception of the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed and the mixed reception to Lost World's new playstyle should make enough of a case that not every new idea or change added by the developers is a good or appropriate one. It's worth noting that the creator of the Werehog concept is on record for stating that he knew the addition would likely cause tension with the fans and wasn't liked by other Sonic Team members, and still added it into the game anyway.

On the topic of the Zelda franchise, that franchise isn't free of this either. Practically every 3D game ever since Ocarina of Time has received some form of flak by the fanbase. Dungeon structure, game controls, story timeline, and (especially in the case of Wind Waker) artstyle in particular have received many changes that haven't been received terribly well by its fanbase. With that said, its worth noting that Zelda games are consistently well-received by critics and get good sales. The Sonic franchise in comparison doesn't have such a benefit.

You're right! Boom not being part of the main series isn't an excuse for how awful Rise of Lyric is. I'm not talking about RoL though, I'm talking about the brand in general. Whether it be the cartoon or the old and new 3DS games, people give Boom a lot of hate simply because SEGA of America and SEGA of Europe want to branch off from the traditional style of the games, appeal to new audiences, and do something new with the brand while SEGA of Japan takes years of develop and publish consecutive game releases because they aren't putting any money into spinoffs (that's what Boom is: because Sonic isn't popular in Japan, so they might as well let SoA/SoE tackle the extra stuff for fans in America). In the last few years, SoJ has put a huge focus on making their Sonic releases in-touch with the expectations of fans (and by that I mean they've got a classic-Sonic style to them in many different aspects of design). SoA/SoE could be doing the same, putting their efforts into having Western developers like Sumo Digital create great spinoffs that the fanbase would love, but instead they're using their time and resources to widen Sonic's appeal through the Boom brand, and it's working! I see nothing wrong with Boom or the approach that SoA/SoE have taken with that brand (again, any dislike I have towards the Boom franchise has to do with the lack of polish/quality of the games and other content, which are seen not only in RoL, but a little bit in Sonic Dash 2, which many of us are talking about in another thread. Shattered Crystal is another debate for another time ;)). If you think differently about Sonic Boom, again, this isn't the place for us to debate that.

Your previous post did refer to Sonic Boom as a game though and described it as such, you described "Sonic Boom: a game" as being unfinished and not being made by Sonic Team. You weren't talking about Sonic Boom as a brand in that instance.

Your supporting reasons as to why Sonic Boom exists and why Sega needs it...doesn't really address the point I raised that no, a lot of people don't give Boom as a brand "hate" just because it's different. Some of the reasons as to why people don't like or have their problems with Boom you've have acknowledged though but also haven't actually addressed. You saying that people "hate" Boom "simply because" of those reasons and nothing more...is in a nutshell what I'm talking about when I earlier said people have clarified their reasonings several times over their disapproval of Boom but people still ignore it in speaking in its defense.

I'll agree to not pursue the discussion concerning Boom in this topic, though I find it odd you're telling me this because you were the one that brought it up in your previous post in the first place.

Edited by Gabe
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  • 2 weeks later...

Your personal experience about SA2 drawing you and your friends into the series doesn't work as supporting reasons for your argument in the previous post that all brands need to appeal to new audiences in order to maintain an audience. The experiences you and your friends had in concerns to getting into Sonic with that specific game doesn't always translate into what happens in other franchises and their fans, nor does it mean that this should also apply to other franchises and their fans. It also doesn't address the previous point I raised that significant changes made to a brand for the sake of making it appeal to more people, has historically come back to torpedo said brand in sales and reputation in the majority of cases. People's fondness for Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts' vehicular construction gameplay doesn't change the fact that most existing Banjo fans didn't buy it because it threw out the collect-a-thon platformer gameplay of the previous two games, and that the Banjo series has yet to receive a new game as a result.

The entire reason fans have so-called "biased" expectations are because their expectations are based on what Sega has established with previous Sonic games, what to expect when they pick up a Sonic game. Despite the tendencies of some to blame a diverse fanbase, there is still a basic notion of what generally constitutes as a Sonic game for not only fans of the series, but also for consumers and reviewers. You don't throw out the "you're jaded" accusation as a defense if the next Mario game plays like a first person shooter instead of a platformer and people get angry about it.

If Sonic games only suffered from quality people wouldn't be complaining about the Adventure games or even recent games like Colors and Generations over things like gameplay, tone in narrative, and even voice actors among other things, even though general consensus is that they are all decent or good games. Nor would the series have historically dropped off in sales as steeply as it has, especially compared to sales of the earlier Sonic games.

I don't agree that Sonic games don't suffer from ideas. Making half of Unleashed's gameplay a slow-paced beat-'em-up platformer doesn't strike me as anything other than ill-advised. Nor do I think giving Sonic a seriously-played interspecies romance with Princess Elise in Sonic 06, or giving Shadow a darker-and-edgier spinoff where he's wielding pistols and cursing, were anywhere near the realm of acceptable. I'm sure I'm far from alone when I say this.

The negative reception of the Werehog in Sonic Unleashed and the mixed reception to Lost World's new playstyle should make enough of a case that not every new idea or change added by the developers is a good or appropriate one. It's worth noting that the creator of the Werehog concept is on record for stating that he knew the addition would likely cause tension with the fans and wasn't liked by other Sonic Team members, and still added it into the game anyway.

On the topic of the Zelda franchise, that franchise isn't free of this either. Practically every 3D game ever since Ocarina of Time has received some form of flak by the fanbase. Dungeon structure, game controls, story timeline, and (especially in the case of Wind Waker) artstyle in particular have received many changes that haven't been received terribly well by its fanbase. With that said, its worth noting that Zelda games are consistently well-received by critics and get good sales. The Sonic franchise in comparison doesn't have such a benefit.

Your previous post did refer to Sonic Boom as a game though and described it as such, you described "Sonic Boom: a game" as being unfinished and not being made by Sonic Team. You weren't talking about Sonic Boom as a brand in that instance.

Your supporting reasons as to why Sonic Boom exists and why Sega needs it...doesn't really address the point I raised that no, a lot of people don't give Boom as a brand "hate" just because it's different. Some of the reasons as to why people don't like or have their problems with Boom you've have acknowledged though but also haven't actually addressed. You saying that people "hate" Boom "simply because" of those reasons and nothing more...is in a nutshell what I'm talking about when I earlier said people have clarified their reasonings several times over their disapproval of Boom but people still ignore it in speaking in its defense.

I'll agree to not pursue the discussion concerning Boom in this topic, though I find it odd you're telling me this because you were the one that brought it up in your previous post in the first place.

I really like your point on fan expectations, it explains why everybody on this forum is complaining about various aspects of Sonic like story, playstyle, etc: because at the point they entered the franchise, they've come to expect those same things from new releases. Which is fair: I guess my mind is still stuck in the era where there were only two groups: classic Sonic fanboys and new modern Sonic fans. Gameplay has changed so much over the years that SEGA and Sonic Team have really dug a pit for themselves in terms of fan expectations...

I guess that growing up loving Sonic in such a time where gameplay radically changed with each new release has me personally seeing things from a different perspective then others. I sort of just accept whatever Sonic Team feels like pumping out, as long as the game is a good video game: I mean, as long as the game is polished, well-designed, and fun to play, I couldn't care less about the finer details like story, etc. In that sense, my expectations are "low".

And I want to encourage fans to see things the same way and not complain about the finer aspects of the franchise so much, but just enjoy Sonic for the series it is. There may be things they disagree about, and it's very good that they're vocal about their beliefs for what Sonic should be, but honestly, the whining just ruins it for everyone.

That being said, this IS a fanbase after all... People will be the way they are and me whining about their whining is just gonna make it worse. Guess I'll take my own advice and just enjoy the fanbase for what it is, lol!

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